20 réponses à ce sujet

[The Fred]

Having begun work on a custom, non-FR module I've come into contact with a lot of hurdles stemming from the FR/D&D transparency and the fact that the NWN2 rules pretty much assume a D&D setting, so, I've been happily tweaking things to suit my own setting, including everything from the small details to changing and even removing classes and adding new ones.

Anyway, this morning I got onto thinking about spells again and figured I'd make a start on chaning spells which need to be changed. These generally fall into three catagories:

1) Named spells.
These are easy: Melf's Acid Arrow, Evard's Black Tentacles, Mordenkainen's Disjunction etc. are named after creators who don't exist in my world. Arguably I could remove the spells, but I'm just going to remove the name.

2) FR-based/Setting-dependant spells.
For reference, I'm making an oriental-based module with a custom cosmology. So, aside from certain monsters not existing, devils and demons (as they exist in FR, at least) do not exist either. So the Summon Creature spells (certainly Summon Creature V), the Planar Binding spells and Planar Ally will need to be removed or changed.

3) BAD spells.
Anything broken or overpowered, I may as well change since I'm changing spells anyway. Also, anything which has an option to add more flavour comes under here (for example, making a spell work differently based on your deity or whatever). So far I have Divine Power under here.

So I was wondering if anyone could think of any spells I'd missed. Right now I'm just going down the 2da looking at each one in turn but I might not spot something. Also any ideas about how to improve or add more flavour to spells which maybe don't strictly need it (but would benefit from it) are more than welcome.

[Haplose]

3) Isaac's (doesn't even exist in DnD and here it makes all other direct damage spells obsolete, uses mostly unresistable type of damage), Bigby's - especially Forcefull (they work differently in PnP), Avasculate, Shadow Simulacrum, Vampiric Feast.

Modifié par Haplose, 27 août 2010 - 06:27 .

[nicethugbert]

I've read people claim that Isaac's exists in D&D under a different name. In addition, TheFred's campaign is custom so PnP compliance is not an issue.

I would contact Brian Meyer. He's done a lot of work on spells and enjoys sharing his content. He also uses Kaedrin's class Pack which has a lot more spells for the weaker classes.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 août 2010 - 02:37 .

[Gilradthegreat]

Word of warning if you're modifying spells: If you don't make an effort to include compatibility with Kaedrin's pack early on, you're going to end up with a LOT of work if you ever decide to make a Kaedrin-compatible version in the future.

[nicethugbert]

Brain Meyer has PnP compliant Bigby's spells. Not that PnP compliace matters much per se. But, they are not auto-win buttons in PnP the way they are in NWN2.

[The Fred]

I don't intend to make my campaign compatable with Kaedrin's (at least not at this time) because I'm adding my own classes, removing existing ones and making various other changes.

I do intend to make things work more or less like PnP where appropriate, just because it's tried and tested as much as anything (and I know a lot of people like PnP-style) but I have no qualms about breaking from that where I want to.

So far I've got all the named spells done (most have their names removed to become like the ones in the trademark-free SRD, with the exception of Balagarn's Iron Horn, which becomes Ironthunder Horn as per this) but I somehow completely forgot Isaac's, so thanks for that!

Bigby's spells have lost their name but, for now, kept their functionality (but I'll look into them). I've also renamed Planar Binding to Bind Demon (with lesser and greater variants) for now, with a modified function, and Planar Ally to Holy Ally.

Another one I thought of was Ethereal Jaunt, because while the Ethereal Plane probably exists everywhere, it certainly won't be called that in my game (and I want to have a go at describing it from scratch because I feel it's more like Weathertop on the first Lord of the Rings film when Frodo puts on the Ring, rather than a funny alternate reality).

To be honest, my campaign is aimed for low-level starters, so many of these spells may never be encountered, but I'd like to know I've got things covered for if they ever do crop up.

EDIT: Fixed broken link.

Modifié par The Fred, 05 janvier 2011 - 01:46 .

[nicethugbert]

I still recommend Brian's and Kaedrin's stuff for the bug fixes, improvements, and loads of stuff you can pilfer. They're both highly PnP compliant.  They have lots of extra spells, especially for bards, rangers, paladins, assasins, black guards, and druids. Kaedrin's done a lot for druids and the rest of the sucky classes.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 22 août 2010 - 06:09 .

[The Fred]

I might peruse, but I'm still MotB- and SoZ-less atm so there might be some things I can't use. That said, I can't use more than one custom class of any origin without SoZ anyway, and I need MotB for the blossoming cherry trees (very important, those) too.

[The Fred]

OK so what I have at the moment:
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mord's Disjunction
Mord's Sword
Tenser's
Evard's
Tasha's
Bigby's
Gedlee's
Mestil's Acid Breath (was Acid Sheath cut?)
Isaac's Lesser and Greater
...all these lose their NPC names.

May change Devil's Sight's name.

Balagarn's -> Ironthunder Horn
(Greater/Lesser) Planar Binding -> Bind (Greater/Lesser) Demon
Planar Ally -> Holy Ally
Summon Creature spells will get different creatures and possibly be split to Summon Nature's Ally for Druids/Bards (if you ever meet one)/Rangers.
Divine Power will be tweaked
Charm Person/P&A/Monster will be changed to work correctly on my new races. I also intend to allow people to cast these through conversation on NPCs.
Etherealness/Ethereal Jaunt are still on the drawing board (does Etherealness - or Ethereality, it should probably be - end on attack?).

Modifié par The Fred, 27 août 2010 - 12:19 .

[nicethugbert]

Yes, ethereal spells end on attack like invis.

[Haplose]

Haplose wrote...

3) Isaac's (doesn't even exist in DnD and here it makes all other direct damage spells obsolete, uses mostly unresistable type of damage), Bigby's - especially Forcefull (they work differently in PnP), Avasculate, Shadow Simulacrum, Vampiric Feast.

Just to make sure I made my point clearly:

All of the above are also:

3) BAD spells.
Anything broken or overpowered

IMO.

Modifié par Haplose, 27 août 2010 - 06:31 .

[The Fred]

Dratted double-spacing... nevermind.
EDIT: Editing and re-submitting seems to fix it.

Isaac's and Bigby's are on my shortlist to review, I just wanted to make sure I got the NPC names off them first (that's my highest priority, really). I think Avasculate, Shadow Simulacrum and Vamp Feast are all MotB which I don't have anyway, though if I get it I'll look into them.

I'm thinking of changing Ethereal to Improve Invisibility, since not being able to attack under it is kinda rubbish for such a high-level spell. The only problem is that that'll be negated by See Invisibility (AFAIK it doesn't see through Etheral) but I don't think there's anything to do about that (though Invisibility Purge could be redone to stop it removing Ethereal). I'll probably rename both of these spells since the Ethereal Plane (as we know it) will probably not exist in my mod.

Another one I thought of is Banishment (and Holy Word is it, which does the same thing?) since I'm thinking of changing how outsiders and stuff work (I might split "outsider" into two or more races, or maybe just make subraces). The descriptions will probably need to be tweaked if they mention "plane", though.

P.S. What would you suggest I do with Isaac's short of removing them? I might just tone them down a tad.

Modifié par The Fred, 27 août 2010 - 12:31 .

[The Fred]

Just looked at the hands. They're all a bit less useful than in PnP because you can't redirect them, but on the other hand they can't be attacked (so the only way to get rid of Interposing for example is to Dispel it, which will probably dispel all of your own buffs). Interposing gives a -10 attack penalty rather than a +4 AC bonus which is a lot better, and Forceful is completely different (though I don't think there'd be any good way to do it in NWN). Clenched and Crushing are not that different to their PnP versions, though.

[Haplose]

Well, Isaacs - probably tone down the damage quite a bit. In general in DnD Force type spells kind of trade damage for irresistable type. So they are maybe 2/3 as effective as similar elemental damage spells. Firebrand and Cone of Cold are capped at 15d6 damage (maximized - 90 damage).



So Greater Storm should probably do something like 10d6 maximum to a single target (or maximum 10 missiles at d6 damage each). If there are more tagets, the total damage could be higher of course (up to 20 d6 missiles), but damage per target - less.



Lesser Storm could do 10d4.

[Haplose]

The Fred wrote...

Just looked at the hands. They're all a bit less useful than in PnP because you can't redirect them, but on the other hand they can't be attacked (so the only way to get rid of Interposing for example is to Dispel it, which will probably dispel all of your own buffs). Interposing gives a -10 attack penalty rather than a +4 AC bonus which is a lot better, and Forceful is completely different (though I don't think there'd be any good way to do it in NWN). Clenched and Crushing are not that different to their PnP versions, though.

Forcefull hand is the main offender actually.

I don't remember of the top of my head right now, but a character needs something like 34 or 38 Strength to have a 50% chance of avoiding the effect. Lower Strength means even less chance. Normal Strength characters have next to no chance to evade the effect (other then Mantles, Spell Resistance, maybe polymorph). Furthermore there is only one check - and then you lay silly on the ground and stunned for rounds = caster level.

Only other chance to defend is to have BOTH MIND immunity and Knockdown immunity (something players should NEVER have IMVHO).

Crushing Hand is nasty as well, but I don't remember the details right now.

[The Fred]

Well what I have done so far is change Forceful Hand so that the knockdown only lasts 1 round (though I intend to add an actual knockback effect which moves the target away, as well), which ought to make it a lot less powerful since with Daze immunity, you're out for only one round, and even without, you can still move after that round. I've also added a Fortitude save to the Daze, too, which might be a little too much of a nerf (though being Fort over the normal Will is better vs caster-type targets which the spell is already good against).



Compared with Mass Hold Person, which I think is the same level, it ought to be OK since the latter will hold multiple foes for the same duration (1 round/level) which is better than Daze, but it offers a new save every round.



Another option would be to shorten the daze duration, and then maybe remove or toughen the new fort save. That way, the hand would still be likely to disable to target, but not for as long (IMO single-roll long-duration disabling spells are bad, it's like doing 100 * d2 damage instead of 100d2 damage).



Crushing Hand *is* nasty (Hold + damage per round), but then it is a 9th-level spell.

[BigfootNZ]

The Fred wrote...

Well what I have done so far is change Forceful Hand so that the knockdown only lasts 1 round (though I intend to add an actual knockback effect which moves the target away, as well)

Why not just make it a variant of the PnP rules?... effectively a strength based hold with the bull rush mechanic, ie each round the target has to defend against the bull rush calculations or be incapable of moving (thats moving around only, ie movement rate 0% but they can still fight) and scale its effects based on the result.

Failed bull rush defence means no movment that round (efforts to resist the hand counter and ground gained), if they win the roll by 5 or less they move at half speed (that way its not so black and white and its kinda logical since they obviously have the extreme strength required to force the hand around somewhat but the hand is still affecting them). If they win the roll by more than 5 its buisness as usual that round ie they've shoved it aside for the moment (you could make it impose a minimum of 10% reduction in movement, ie not much but its got a slight impact) ... and given the constant exertive force the hand would produce they should have a temporary -2 to attack and saves regardless of outcome that round.

Also if they fail the roll by 10 or more they get knocked down for the round since it means they either got unlucky (poor shifting of weight), or they are far to weak to resist the hands motive force enough to stay on their feet to begin with.

That throws in many uses for the one spell dependant on the situation. Its no longer got any immunities attached to it, against small known weak creatures or low strength creatures it becomes a strong perma knockdown spell, while against strong creatures its acts like an intermitant single target movement restriction. Against very strong creatures it acts as a variable snare with a weak attack/save debuff and the possability of holding them still every so often based on the bull rush outcome that round.

Also id change interposing to a -4 (or -5 to be rounded) to attack rolls since that effectivly translates into a direct boost of +4 ac to who ever the target is attacking... -10 is rediculosly overpowered given it cant be harmed and stays with the target and requries no saving throw. Id even go so far as to stick in a 50% miss rate with ranged attacks while under its affect.

(Sure thats fairly similar to the original NWN2 version but in the OC its more of a once its hit, its hit spell, where as in PnP its a more ongoing  type spell where the target and the hand are in a constant fight between each other) Heck with some modeling you could even have a series of animations for each possible rounds outcome (hand pushing against target, hand moved aside followed by the hand pawing at the target, hand knocking opponent down etc. But thats getting complicated

Edit:- Also while your at it with the hand spells, change grasping so that it can be a radial spell so it can be used also as a stronger forceful (+16 bonus) and stronger interposing hand (say -8 attack?) like the PnP variant.

Modifié par BigfootNZ, 27 août 2010 - 11:32 .

[Haplose]

One other important point about hands - only one should attempt to grapple/bullrush/distract the enemy at a time. Multiple couldn't possibly occupy the same space. So casting one should lock out the remaining ones.

[The Fred]

I'd thought about trying to make Forceful a bit more like PnP, but Grasping and Crushing also hold so it's nice to keep a bit of variation.



Having only one hand at once is probably a good idea, though.

Modifié par The Fred, 28 août 2010 - 01:06 .

[nicethugbert]

One hand per target?



I think it would be a good idea to uncap spell damage. The damage spells become worthless towards epic levels. That is one of IGMS's appeals. It has no competition.

[The Fred]

To be honset, my campaign is unlikely ever to reach double-figure levels, let alone epic ones (certainly not for a looong time, since I've pretty much just started it and it's probably going to be a 1st-level start one), I just like to have stuff all sorted first (I'm making myself lay all the groundwork properly this time), and there might be NPCs with high-level spells, etc.



After looking at Isaac's a bit more, though, the Lesser version doesn't look that overpowered given that it does the same damage as a Fireball but is one level higher, and most importantly, the damage is spread out amongst targets... all that for magical damage (which *is* good, admittedly). I might actually change the mechanic a bit rather than just lowering the damage, or it becomes very poor vs mobs.