201 réponses à ce sujet

[swirlwind]

iTomes wrote...

yes, and the devs said that you will do so "very soon". saying you wont is for example a false assumption.

Which is why I never said that. I'm very happy that the devs said we'll see LadyHawke very soon. However, promises mean little until they're turned into action. Trust me, I'll be extremely appreciative once we get what we've been promised.

iTomes wrote...

if you want to talk about what ME did do and what ME didn't do you may go to the mass effect forums. this is dragon age 2, another game that propably has another main audience and another dev-team.

If you really are of the opinion that we can infer nothing from BioWare's previous marketing campaigns, you and I will have to respectfully disagree.

iTomes wrote...

the most games in the world are coming from EA. are all EA games the same? no they arent. are they all created by the same dev-team? no theyre not.

I never said anything about EA. While the games are not necessarily marketed by the same people or developed by the same individuals, they are still BioWare games, and it makes sense to compare their marketing campaigns, especially when they share a key feature. Earlier you brought up the marketing campaigns of DA:O and Jade Empire, which both featured female protagonists. Those games also share another feature: they don't have a single predetermined protagonist. However, both DA2 and the ME franchise do, and so far, their marketing campaigns have not included female protagonists. If you don't see a connection, I don't know what else to tell you.

iTomes wrote...

it doesn't help because the plans are done now and because those who are in the forum are soo less. they didn't "forget" ladyhawke, you dont have to remind them that she exists. ill be the first to complain that she wasn't shown when the game was released (and she wasn't shown), but until then complaining about maybe occuring future events is just silly.

I never said they forgot her. I just hope they won't overlook her, intentionally or otherwise. However, it's useless to cry spilled milk when the game is already out. The only way to bring forth change is to make it known beforehand that change is necessary and desirable. That's why we speak up now and not when the marketing campaign is long past.

You have to understand that this is not the first time this has been brought up. I was on the ME1 boards before the game came out, and for the longest time people, even BioWare fans, didn't know that you could play a female character in that game. It was brought up again before ME2, and femShep was never shown. We're simply trying to avoid it here.

iTomes wrote...

you appearently really make sex a big deal, dont you. i mean, something like that just because a mute woman was shown in a trailer?? i kinda know a word for people who make sex such a big deal: sexist.

Yeah, I think this part really doesn't deserve an answer.

[Ulicus]

Saibh wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Would be awesome. Won't happen. Or, at least, a big fancy CGI Lady Hawke trailer won't happen. We might get gameplay trailers featuring her.

That's all that's being asked for.

*Waves hand in Jedi-like manner* You will not realise that I have a bad habit of only reading thread titles before posting.

[Saibh]

iTomes wrote...

Rapidiul wrote...

People only talk about why something can not be made. That is sad.

wrong. people here talk about why something WILL not be made and then simply complain about it...

Alright. Listen to me.

We would like to see a female Hawke trailer so we can feel represented, so we can be excitinged, see female walking animations, female LIs, female voice, etc.

This is not that much to ask. You're frankly being a jerk about this, and many of your points are based around what you personally feel does and does not count.

It's just a trailer. It is not an insult upon men, it is not a claim that BioWare is sexist, because they're not, and it's getting irritating that you keep pushing those words onto our thoughts to prove your point when you are wrong. It seems to me that you're taking the existence of this thread as a personal assault to your gender. Some people can hyperbolize, but they're not all of us. Should I assume that everyone who likes Morrigan are the obnoxious, demanding kind?

There are ways to do things in moderation.

I'm sorry if I'm getting snippy, but it's very frustrating being lumped in with the "unreasonable" kind.

EDIT: And, you know, I'm seeing a lockdown in our near future. This thread invited self-righteous feelings from both sides too quickly.

Modifié par Saibh, 21 août 2010 - 07:38 .

[namedforthemoon]

Saibh wrote...

iTomes wrote...

Rapidiul wrote...

People only talk about why something can not be made. That is sad.

wrong. people here talk about why something WILL not be made and then simply complain about it...

Alright. Listen to me.

We would like to see a female Hawke trailer so we can feel represented, so we can be exciting, see female walking animations, female LIs, female voice, etc.

This is not that much to ask. You're frankly being a jerk about this, and many of your points are based around what you personally feel does and does not count.

It's just a trailer. It is not an insult upon men, it is not a claim that BioWare is sexist, because they're not, and it's getting irritating that you keep pushing those words onto our thoughts to prove your point when you are wrong. It seems to me that you're taking the existence of this thread as a personal assault to your gender. Some people can hyperbolize, but they're not all of us. Should I assume that everyone who likes Morrigan are the obnoxious, demanding kind?

There are ways to do things in moderation.

I'm sorry if I'm getting snippy, but it's very frustrating being lumped in with the "unreasonable" kind.

Quoted for emphasis.

[Saibh]

jln.francisco wrote...

I'm sorry if I'm getting snippy, but it's very frustrating being lumped in with the "unreasonable" kind.

Not that my two cents matter but, I'm not even sure what the unreasonable kind would be.

I guess calling BioWare sexists ****s who only care about money and refuse to acknowledge women as equals to men would be pretty unreasonable, and that's what a lot of people who come into these threads feel that we're like, without actually reading our thoughts on the subject.  I'm sure some others can come up with more creative crazies.

[The Edge]

I just think it would be difficult to illustrate DA2 if they show two protagonists (male and female). If one is shown before the other, I think that that character would assume the face of the franchise (I'm not saying that it should be male, but Bioware has already made this decision by showing us male Hawke). If one is shown after the other, I'm not sure if everyone viewing it will get the "oh, you can play as either this or that" (people that know and follow Bioware would, of course, but new faces probably wouldn't at first glance).



Trust me when I say it would be great to have a female Hawke in her own trailer, but introducing another version at this point would muddy up the marketing; what I mean is that more time would need to be taken to explain "you can play as a male or female", thus taking away time to talk about other things (like the story and gameplay) IMO.

[Dave of Canada]

Saibh wrote...

We would like to see a female Hawke trailer so we can feel represented, so we can be excitinged, see female walking animations, female LIs, female voice, etc.

/devil's advocate
/nitpick

Often times we never see romances except for -the- one before the game launches.

[namedforthemoon]

The Edge wrote...

I just think it would be difficult to illustrate DA2 if they show two protagonists (male and female). If one is shown before the other, I think that that character would assume the face of the franchise (I'm not saying that it should be male, but Bioware has already made this decision by showing us male Hawke). If one is shown after the other, I'm not sure if everyone viewing it will get the "oh, you can play as either this or that" (people that know and follow Bioware would, of course, but new faces probably wouldn't at first glance).

Trust me when I say it would be great to have a female Hawke in her own trailer, but introducing another version at this point would muddy up the marketing; what I mean is that more time would need to be taken to explain "you can play as a male or female", thus taking away time to talk about other things (like the story and gameplay) IMO.

So it's not that people don't want a female hawke to be shown, it's so that we gamers don't get confused by seeing both a male and a female counterpart?

Because we gamers are just too stupid to figure that out.

Right.

[atheelogos]

Well seeing as the male trailer just came out I would have to say no. Be realistic here. You wont see a female trailer for a couple of months at least.

[iTomes]

@swirlwind:

"Which is why I never said that. I'm very happy that the devs said we'll see LadyHawke very soon. However, promises mean little until they're turned into action. Trust me, I'll be extremely appreciative once we get what we've been promised."

yes, but having a promisse is a start. and there is one. so start complaining in threads as this as soon as its not fulfilled, not before...

"Those games also share another feature: they don't have a single predetermined protagonist."

Jade Empire had several more or less predetermited protagonsits, and hawke isn't nearly as predetermitted as shepard. besides, thats one of the very less similarities DA2 and ME have, we dont need to interpretate too much into that..

"However, it's useless to cry spilled milk when the game is already out. The only way to bring forth change is to make it known beforehand that change is necessary and desirable."

i disagree. waiting and hoping and being silent can be much more powerfull: they already know what trailers theyll make for DA2. so asking for ladyhawke wont make her appear, no matter how much your asking for it. but if you wait and they dont do the trailers you have a veeeery good position for complainments: "i trusted you and you disappointed me" or something. if youre ranting all the time your argument doesn't become stronger and youll waste a lot of time. by waiting and then giving it an epic rant you propably can influde later projects. or, at least, you spare time you can use for other things.

[iTomes]

Saibh wrote...

iTomes wrote...

Rapidiul wrote...

People only talk about why something can not be made. That is sad.

wrong. people here talk about why something WILL not be made and then simply complain about it...

Alright. Listen to me.

We would like to see a female Hawke trailer so we can feel represented, so we can be excitinged, see female walking animations, female LIs, female voice, etc.

This is not that much to ask. You're frankly being a jerk about this, and many of your points are based around what you personally feel does and does not count.

It's just a trailer. It is not an insult upon men, it is not a claim that BioWare is sexist, because they're not, and it's getting irritating that you keep pushing those words onto our thoughts to prove your point when you are wrong. It seems to me that you're taking the existence of this thread as a personal assault to your gender. Some people can hyperbolize, but they're not all of us. Should I assume that everyone who likes Morrigan are the obnoxious, demanding kind?

There are ways to do things in moderation.

I'm sorry if I'm getting snippy, but it's very frustrating being lumped in with the "unreasonable" kind.

EDIT: And, you know, I'm seeing a lockdown in our near future. This thread invited self-righteous feelings from both sides too quickly.

uuummm, i dont think my gender is attacked or something... i just dont see the sense in complaining about future events that may or may not happen........ keep youre energy for when its needed, and if they really dont show ladyhawke ill be the first to join the rant and possible one of the loudest... until then, ill wait and hope...

[swirlwind]

The Edge wrote...

Trust me when I say it would be great to have a female Hawke in her own trailer, but introducing another version at this point would muddy up the marketing; what I mean is that more time would need to be taken to explain "you can play as a male or female", thus taking away time to talk about other things (like the story and gameplay) IMO.

This is one of the main arguments the marketing people have used to explain why maleHawke is the face of the game. While I personally don't see the issue as a significant one, I do recognise it as more valid than any other argument presented so far. I don't have a problem with Garrett Hawke being used as the main face of the game. All I'm asking is that the marketing would acknowledge the very real feature of the game that is the possibility to choose the gender of the player character. The point is to show what the game actually has to offer. It would be inclusive to female gamers while not shutting out the males. All you need is one gameplay video that shows both options, and everybody's happy.

[Riona45]

iTomes wrote...
uuummm, i dont think my gender is attacked or something... i just dont see the sense in complaining about future events that may or may not happen........ keep youre energy for when its needed, and if they really dont show ladyhawke ill be the first to join the rant and possible one of the loudest... until then, ill wait and hope...

Yeah, right. 

Anyway, I don't think it's your place to tell people how or where to spend their energy.

[Gabey5]

dont hold your breath

[The Edge]

namedforthemoon wrote...

The Edge wrote...

I just think it would be difficult to illustrate DA2 if they show two protagonists (male and female). If one is shown before the other, I think that that character would assume the face of the franchise (I'm not saying that it should be male, but Bioware has already made this decision by showing us male Hawke). If one is shown after the other, I'm not sure if everyone viewing it will get the "oh, you can play as either this or that" (people that know and follow Bioware would, of course, but new faces probably wouldn't at first glance).

Trust me when I say it would be great to have a female Hawke in her own trailer, but introducing another version at this point would muddy up the marketing; what I mean is that more time would need to be taken to explain "you can play as a male or female", thus taking away time to talk about other things (like the story and gameplay) IMO.

So it's not that people don't want a female hawke to be shown, it's so that we gamers don't get confused by seeing both a male and a female counterpart?

Because we gamers are just too stupid to figure that out.

Right.

If one is shown after the other, I'm not sure if everyone viewing it will get the "oh, you can play as either this or that" (people that know and follow Bioware would, of course, but new faces probably wouldn't at first glance).

I'm saying a trailer would be more effective showing elements of gameplay or story rather than whether or not you can play as a boy or girl. If it pique your interest, then you could look it up and find out that you can play as both male and a female.

I wasn't dissing gamers or calling them stupid, but thanks for pulling that out of the hat...

[wrexingcrew]

The Edge wrote...

Trust me when I say it would be great to have a female Hawke in her own trailer, but introducing another version at this point would muddy up the marketing; what I mean is that more time would need to be taken to explain "you can play as a male or female", thus taking away time to talk about other things (like the story and gameplay) IMO.

Let's think about that "muddying up" part, though, because that's the most common claim I see people make on your side of the issue. How would that play out?

Would people think DA2 is two separate games? If so, I'm not sure why that's a bad thing from a marketing perspective - sounds like added value. I think that would imply choice no matter what, whether people interpret it as having control over character creation/gender or as two separate game modes.

Would people be unclear who the protagonist is? If so, I'd think that would add to interest, not detract from it. "Hmm, which is the player character? I should look into this more." I have a hard time imagining gamers being turned off just because they don't know which character will swing the sword when they mash buttons - I think the sword-swinging/button-mashing will be the deciding factor for that type of gamer. It will either look good to them or not.

I just don't see what the negative consequences would be. Any player that thinks BroHawke looks awesome but isn't sure BroHawke is the PC...will either buy the game or look for more information before making a purchase (and discover that they can play as BH).

The only anti-female-PC argument that might (might) have merit descriptively is the claim that bigoted dude gamers will refuse to play a game with a female PC. The thing is, showing plenty of BroHawke (as BioWare has already done) defuses that argument (which I think is bogus anyway, but that's a separate argument for a different thread).

[iTomes]

Riona45 wrote...

iTomes wrote...
uuummm, i dont think my gender is attacked or something... i just dont see the sense in complaining about future events that may or may not happen........ keep youre energy for when its needed, and if they really dont show ladyhawke ill be the first to join the rant and possible one of the loudest... until then, ill wait and hope...

Yeah, right. 

Anyway, I don't think it's your place to tell people how or where to spend their energy.

then its not your place aswell to tell bioware how to do their marketing:P. anyways, its just my opinion, not an order or something. everybodys free to ignore it or something. having the right of free speech im free to post my opinion. if you dont like it, its your problem.

[namedforthemoon]

The Edge wrote...

namedforthemoon wrote...

The Edge wrote...

I just think it would be difficult to illustrate DA2 if they show two protagonists (male and female). If one is shown before the other, I think that that character would assume the face of the franchise (I'm not saying that it should be male, but Bioware has already made this decision by showing us male Hawke). If one is shown after the other, I'm not sure if everyone viewing it will get the "oh, you can play as either this or that" (people that know and follow Bioware would, of course, but new faces probably wouldn't at first glance).

Trust me when I say it would be great to have a female Hawke in her own trailer, but introducing another version at this point would muddy up the marketing; what I mean is that more time would need to be taken to explain "you can play as a male or female", thus taking away time to talk about other things (like the story and gameplay) IMO.

So it's not that people don't want a female hawke to be shown, it's so that we gamers don't get confused by seeing both a male and a female counterpart?

Because we gamers are just too stupid to figure that out.

Right.

If one is shown after the other, I'm not sure if everyone viewing it will get the "oh, you can play as either this or that" (people that know and follow Bioware would, of course, but new faces probably wouldn't at first glance).

I'm saying a trailer would be more effective showing elements of gameplay or story rather than whether or not you can play as a boy or girl. If it pique your interest, then you could look it up and find out that you can play as both male and a female.

I wasn't dissing gamers or calling them stupid, but thanks for pulling that out of the hat...

I've heard that arguement so many times, though, and it just seems insulting. "Oh, you can't show a male AND a female protagonist in trailers, that would just be too confusing for people!" Which basically implies that gamers are just idiotic morons that can't figure stuff out for themselves. Which is, of course, totally untrue. I was just quoting your post because your post was the last one I saw with that arguement.

[Riona45]

jln.francisco wrote...

I guarantee you watching your 'tone' is about as helpful as rolling out the red carpet. As someone who spent much of his life trying to get his parents and family to accept atheism (still cant tell them for fear they'll stop taking the money I send them to keep them afloat) being friendly/cheerful/whatever doesn't do anything to change people's minds. At least not in my experiences.

Same here.  I don't put too much stock in the "tone argument."  Sometimes peoples have valid reasons to be angry, too.

[The Edge]

swirlwind wrote...

The Edge wrote...

Trust me when I say it would be great to have a female Hawke in her own trailer, but introducing another version at this point would muddy up the marketing; what I mean is that more time would need to be taken to explain "you can play as a male or female", thus taking away time to talk about other things (like the story and gameplay) IMO.

This is one of the main arguments the marketing people have used to explain why maleHawke is the face of the game. While I personally don't see the issue as a significant one, I do recognise it as more valid than any other argument presented so far. I don't have a problem with Garrett Hawke being used as the main face of the game. All I'm asking is that the marketing would acknowledge the very real feature of the game that is the possibility to choose the gender of the player character. The point is to show what the game actually has to offer. It would be inclusive to female gamers while not shutting out the males. All you need is one gameplay video that shows both options, and everybody's happy.

I agree that the option should be presented more out front, and sense Garret Hawke and Marian Hawke are "technically" the same person, they are equally important to DA2. 

[Riona45]

iTomes wrote...
then its not your place aswell to tell bioware how to do their marketing:P.

 
I didn't, so this isn't much of a point.

anyways, its just my opinion, not an order or something. everybodys free to ignore it or something. having the right of free speech im free to post my opinion. if you dont like it, its your problem.

You're free to post what you want, and we're free to call you out on it.  Your point?

[iTomes]

Riona45 wrote...

iTomes wrote...
then its not your place aswell to tell bioware how to do their marketing:P.

 
I didn't, so this isn't much of a point.

anyways, its just my opinion, not an order or something. everybodys free to ignore it or something. having the right of free speech im free to post my opinion. if you dont like it, its your problem.

You're free to post what you want, and we're free to call you out on it.  Your point?

considering that were all free to post what we want as long as we dont call each othre motherf... or make death threats or something you propably should consider to be more carefull with saying what one is allowed and what not.

[swirlwind]

iTomes wrote...

yes, but having a promisse is a start. and there is one. so start complaining in threads as this as soon as its not fulfilled, not before...

It's a good start, for sure. However, since you so conveniently skipped all the arguments in my previous post that were relevant to this point, I think I'll just start skipping yours from now on. Save us both a lot of trouble.

iTomes wrote...

i disagree. waiting and hoping and being silent can be much more powerfull: they already know what trailers theyll make for DA2. so asking for ladyhawke wont make her appear, no matter how much your asking for it. but if you wait and they dont do the trailers you have a veeeery good position for complainments: "i trusted you and you disappointed me" or something. if youre ranting all the time your argument doesn't become stronger and youll waste a lot of time. by waiting and then giving it an epic rant you propably can influde later projects. or, at least, you spare time you can use for other things.

Seriously? Because you figure BioWare marketing people's many talents include telepathy? How many times in your life did you get something you wanted by silently hoping for it? You must have more faith than I do. Good for you.

Now, until you actually have counterarguments to the ones I presented my previous post, how about we agree to disagree.