108 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

Athenau wrote...

Again, energy drain buffs your shields more than heavy barrier. Heavy barrier's 100% equates to 250 shields. Heavy drain with 5 upgrades gets you 300, and that can be buffed even further with +% power damage from skills and gear. And that boost doesn't go away when you shields go down. If you want you can drain something every 25 seconds and benefit from a huge passive buff to shields while using your cooldowns on something else.

Problem with ED is that it's not reliable; you'll need shields and they're gone first and fast after which ED becomes useless and that's exactly the time when I need a shield boost. Barrier always provides no matter the circumstances. It's instant (unlike ED and Medkits) thus works even while stunned or shooting - just press the button and your shields back up. I don't mind "that (shield) boost doesn't go away when your shields go down" - I never wait for shield to regen; I have max shields entering a fight and I use Barrier whenever death becomes eminent to get max shields back; ED can't do anything close.

[pedal2metal]

Pros & cons for both. I think playstyle matters. If you like using weapons w/Adepts, Barrier gives you a lot of flexibility to just go "in charging" by casting early on & just shooting stuff. By the time it's down, you can likely cast it again as you continue shooting stuff. If you prefer to stand back & use primarily powers as an Adept, ED will give you the fully rounded powers suite so that you can confidently engage any enemy with any defenses from afar.

I'm more of "stand back" kind of player (I basically rarely use my guns) but I'll admit that those barrier videos look fun & playing the Vanguard is getting me more comfortable with the "in charging" playstyle.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Athenau]

The barrier approach only works if you're willing to spend all your cooldowns on barrier.

[Bozorgmehr]

pedal2metal wrote...

Pros & cons for both. I think playstyle matters. If you like using weapons w/Adepts, Barrier gives you a lot of flexibility to just go "in charging" by casting early on & just shooting stuff. By the time it's down, you can likely cast it again as you continue shooting stuff. If you prefer to stand back & use primarily powers as an Adept, ED will give you the fully rounded powers suite so that you can confidently engage any enemy with any defenses from afar.

I'm more of "stand back" kind of player (I basically rarely use my guns) but I'll admit that those barrier videos look fun & playing the Vanguard is getting me more comfortable with the "in charging" playstyle.

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Agreed, ED is a direct damage power; Barrier is a direct defensive power; though ED will replenish your shields used against shielded enemies and synthetics. If you're using a more cautious playstyle and fight the enemy at range; ED will be a better pick. Fighting CQC Barrier is needed.

Athenau wrote...

The barrier approach only works if you're willing to spend all your cooldowns on barrier.

No it doesn't, it's only needed just before dying and there're plenty opportunities to use other powers (Throw and Pull have a 1.6 s cooldown with 40% reduction; Singularity 2 s - no problem)

[Athenau]

No it doesn't, it's only needed just before dying and there're plenty opportunities to use other powers (Throw and Pull have a 1.6 s cooldown with 40% reduction; Singularity 2 s - no problem)

No. Every barrier is 7 seconds, minimum, of cooldown. So unless you're claiming that you can last significantly longer than 7 seconds firing/out in the open on insanity, that means you're spending almost all your cooldowns on barrier.

Fighting CQC Barrier is needed

Er no, it isn't. I just played through the Dantius towers with an energy drain soldier, rushing aggressively with the mattock. No barrier needed and plenty of opportunities to top up my shields as I went along. Using barrier or GSB in the manner you describe would have slowed things down signficantly since I would have locked out adrenaline rush.

Modifié par Athenau, 01 septembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Athenau wrote...

No. Every barrier is 7 seconds, minimum, of cooldown. So unless you're claiming that you can last significantly longer than 7 seconds firing/out in the open on insanity, that means you're spending almost all your cooldowns on barrier.

Just take a look a some of my Adept vids to see how I use Barrier. Sure I use it often but that's because raw firepower makes up for using biotics a little less.

Er no, it isn't. I just played through the Dantius towers with an energy drain soldier, rushing aggressively with the mattock. No barrier needed and plenty of opportunities to top up my shields as I went along. Using barrier or GSB in the manner you describe would have slowed things down signficantly since I would have locked out adrenaline rush.

Soldier is a totally different matter, they don't need Barrier (and ED to be honest) - AR is always a better option. Soldiers don't have passive cooldown bonus like Adepts thus using powers is less interesting. AR becomes available every 3 s; it's all a Soldier need. My Barrier Adept played through the Dantius Towers too, and wasn't slowed down at all: www.youtube.com/watch

[Athenau]

Just take a look a some of my Adept vids to see how I use Barrier. Sure I use it often but that's because raw firepower makes up for using biotics a little less.

I'm not sure which video you're referring to, but I watched your claymore adept vid and it supports my point. When you were rushing down you used barrier almost every time it became available, with only the occasional singularity to start off fights and a few pulls or throws to cleanup stragglers (where it wouldn't have mattered what you used anyway).

Soldier is a totally different matter, they don't need Barrier (and ED to be honest) - AR is always a better option. Soldiers don't have passive cooldown bonus like Adepts thus using powers is less interesting. AR becomes available every 3 s; it's all a Soldier need

AR is all a soldier needs, but energy drain makes a lot of missions easier. Having played that segment several times with and without ED I can say that rushing down with the soldier was much harder without energy drain. And barrier would have sucked.

Modifié par Athenau, 01 septembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Mr_Raider]

Athenau wrote...

Just take a look a some of my Adept vids to see how I use Barrier. Sure I use it often but that's because raw firepower makes up for using biotics a little less.

I'm not sure which video you're referring to, but I watched your claymore adept vid and it supports my point. When you were rushing down you used barrier almost every time it became available, with only the occasional singularity to start off fights and a few pulls or throws to cleanup stragglers (where it wouldn't have mattered what you used anyway).

Not to mention the fact that adepts should not have access to claymores!

[pedal2metal]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Not to mention the fact that adepts should not have access to claymores!

I was thinking the same thing.  How does an Adept acquire the Claymore?  Sounds fishy...  but still a cool video! 

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

Modifié par pedal2metal, 02 septembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Athenau wrote...

I'm not sure which video you're referring to, but I watched your claymore adept vid and it supports my point. When you were rushing down you used barrier almost every time it became available, with only the occasional singularity to start off fights and a few pulls or throws to cleanup stragglers (where it wouldn't have mattered what you used anyway).

I don't understand what you mean. I use biotics to control the battlefield (to an extent) and instead of killing enemies who survived the intial (biotic) combo; using biotics at range, I go in and shotgun the leftovers to death (Barrier or ED provide the protection needed to get close enough to wield SG like it suposed to)

AR is all a soldier needs, but energy drain makes a lot of missions easier. Having played that segment several times with and without ED I can say that rushing down with the soldier was much harder without energy drain. And barrier would have sucked.

Again, I don't understand your point. First of all, I never said ED is worthless. I only said that I consider Barrier to be more suitable for my playstyle (except fighting Geth) - if you prefer using ED; go for it. But please don't start calling powers you like less to suck coz they don't, at least not for me;)

Mr_Raider wrote...

Not to mention the fact that adepts should not have access to claymores!

Why shouldn't the Adept be able to use Claymore? I believe it to be a mistake to exclude some weapons. But yes, you'll need to mod game to aquire it. The new Geth Plasma Shotgun is more powerful on Adept (massive damage at medium range plus more damage than Claymore when charged), but I don't like the GPS. It doesn't feel like a SG nor sounds like one. Claymore is the ultimate SG; the way it looks, sounds and handles - and since I love shotties there's no other way than modding the game to be able to use it on an Adept.

pedal2metal wrote...

I was thinking the same thing.  How does an Adept acquire the Claymore?  Sounds fishy...  but still a cool video! 

best regards,
Pedal2Metal

That is exactly the point of those Claymore Adept videos. At first it seems an unlikely combination: Adepts are not the most obvious CQC fighters, but using a different playstyle they can use the ultimate CQC weapon very effectively. I love my Claymore Adept

[NICKjnp]

The only time I use Energy drain is on Haestrom, Tali's loyalty mission and Legion's loyalty mission. Otherwise I go with Barrier. And it restores to it's max when shots hit it... unless it is taken down completely. I've also found that if you have barrier active that the shield upgrade that does the immediate restore of shields is more likely to happen.

[Arhka]

Athenau wrote...

The barrier approach only works if you're willing to spend all your cooldowns on barrier.

Cooldowns are very abundant though. Still plenty of room to get offense in.

[The Spamming Troll]

why do you guys care to waste talent points on something you can get for free? i just upgrade first aid and use that when im about to die.



id rather take something i dont already have with my bonus ability. like taking the AR when you have the SMG isnt the best idea. especially if you have the locust.

[sinosleep]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why do you guys care to waste talent points on something you can get for free? i just upgrade first aid and use that when im about to die.

id rather take something i dont already have with my bonus ability. like taking the AR when you have the SMG isnt the best idea. especially if you have the locust.

Unless you have the mattock, which serves a different purpose than the locust.

[Bozorgmehr]

NICKjnp wrote...

I've also found that if you have barrier active that the shield upgrade that does the immediate restore of shields is more likely to happen.

Same here, it seems the spontaneous shield regen occurs more often though with ED you get some of your shield back after detonating a Geth Destroyer (don't know why)

Arhka wrote...

Cooldowns are very abundant though. Still plenty of room to get offense in.

Exactly, best thing about powers like Barrier is that it gives options. You don't have to use it all the time, but going in guns blazing will help to stay alive.

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why do you guys care to waste talent points on something you can get for free? i just upgrade first aid and use that when im about to die.

Because powers like Barrier work precisely when needed - medkits don't; they're too unreliable. Not to mention the +100% shield boost (lvl 4); you will notice the increased protection.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 02 septembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Athenau]

I don't understand what you mean. I use biotics to control the battlefield (to an extent) and instead of killing enemies who survived the intial (biotic) combo; using biotics at range, I go in and shotgun the leftovers to death (Barrier or ED provide the protection needed to get close enough to wield SG like it suposed to)

Which proves my point. You can have aggressive rushdown (to some extent) with barrier spam or you can have CC with your other biotics. You can't do both at once, because barrier's cooldown is so long.  Once you commit to going in guns blazing it's all barrier all the time.

Again, I don't understand your point. First of all, I never said ED is worthless. I only said that I consider Barrier to be more suitable for my playstyle (except fighting Geth) - if you prefer using ED; go for it. But please don't start calling powers you like less to suck coz they don't, at least not for me.

You originally claimed that ED was only better than barrier on geth missions. Then when I brought up the soldier counterexample you claimed that the soldier was totally different because the soldier only needs AR, implying that ED wasn't adding anything to the build. Neither are true.

And while we're nitpicking, I never claimed that barrier sucked in general.  So please don't claim I did.  I only said that it would have sucked for a soldier.  The scenario I mentioned is an example of ED providing superior survivability  to barrier (or AR alone) on a non-Geth mission.

In general, I think barrier isn't a good power for classes with money skills that they want to spam often (soldier, infiltrator, vanguard).  It's also fairly useless on a Sentinel (tech armor serves the purpose of an unconditional shield recharge and tech armor + ED have way more synergy).  So that leaves the adept and the engineer.  And for them, at best, it opens up a more aggressive playstyle.  Whether that style is more effective is up for debate.

Modifié par Athenau, 02 septembre 2010 - 10:56 .

[numotsbane]

Athenau wrote...
In general, I think barrier isn't a good power for classes with money skills that they want to spam often (soldier, infiltrator, vanguard).  It's also fairly useless on a Sentinel (tech armor serves the purpose of an unconditional shield recharge and tech armor + ED have way more synergy).  So that leaves the adept and the engineer.  And for them, at best, it opens up a more aggressive playstyle.  Whether that style is more effective is up for debate.

I agree with this point. but I don't think theres any reason to get upset about it.

ED and Barrier are both good powers, though they are situational and playstyle dependant.

[Athenau]

I'm not upset. By internet standards this has been an amazingly civil debate.

[numotsbane]

I'm glad. I did a poll on respecing a while back and it suggested that a fairly large number of people didn't respec much at all.

I think this would have a pretty big impact on bonus power choice; and its not particularly in favour of ED. I think this is why such a large number of people choose ammo powers, even though they're not usually the best option.

Would we still choose ED if we couldn't change it for missions like the collector ship and the suicide mission? hmm.

[Arhka]

numotsbane wrote...

I'm glad. I did a poll on respecing a while back and it suggested that a fairly large number of people didn't respec much at all.
I think this would have a pretty big impact on bonus power choice; and its not particularly in favour of ED. I think this is why such a large number of people choose ammo powers, even though they're not usually the best option.
Would we still choose ED if we couldn't change it for missions like the collector ship and the suicide mission? hmm.

I would if Husks still counted as synthetic.

[Bozorgmehr]

Athenau wrote...

Which proves my point. You can have aggressive rushdown (to some extent) with barrier spam or you can have CC with your other biotics. You can't do both at once, because barrier's cooldown is so long.  Once you commit to going in guns blazing it's all barrier all the time.

I have no idea what you're talking about. In the Dantius Towers Barrier Adept video Shepard uses: 16 Singularities; 5 Pulls; 25 Throws; 11 Warps and 12 Barriers (4 completely unnecessary if I just waited 1-2 s behind cover for shield regen). Using powers 69 times; only 17.4 % Heavy Barrier. I use Barrier more often in Claymore videos but still well below 30% of overall power usage, plus there's no other way to play like this without using Barrier (or GSB); only VG can do so due to the constant shield regen using Charge.

You originally claimed that ED was only better than barrier on geth missions. Then when I brought up the soldier counterexample you claimed that the soldier was totally different because the soldier only needs AR, implying that ED wasn't adding anything to the build. Neither are true.

Nor wrong. Soldier is a completely different class compared to Adept and played 'right' Soldiers only need AR - ED only slows Soldier down; damage done by ED is neglectable compared to 2 AR; plus AR reduces damage taken, allows fast movement to get near the enemy/behind cover fast - Soldiers don't really need extra shields; Barrier and GSB are still useful bonus powers for Soldiers, lvl 1 will save your ass when no other power/medkit can.

And while we're nitpicking, I never claimed that barrier sucked in general.  So please don't claim I did.  I only said that it would have sucked for a soldier.  The scenario I mentioned is an example of ED providing superior survivability  to barrier (or AR alone) on a non-Geth mission.

You're saying "it would have sucked for a Soldier" meaning you never tried it; you're expecting it to be bad and claim it would have sucked based on that assumption alone.

ED never offers more survivability than Barrier; you've to rely on enemy shields to make it work - Barrier always works.

So that leaves the adept and the engineer.  And for them, at best, it opens up a more aggressive playstyle. Whether that style is more effective is up for debate.

How do you define 'effective playstyle'? Pure killing power?

If it's all about speed I'm really interested to watch your ED Soldier clearing the Dantius Towers. You must be very good if you can clear that level a lot faster than I did with my Adept. I don't do speedruns btw, but I like playing aggressive and love shotguns; I don't care much about effectiveness; I just want to have fun

[JaegerBane]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

why do you guys care to waste talent points on something you can get for free? i just upgrade first aid and use that when im about to die.

Because powers like Barrier work precisely when needed - medkits don't; they're too unreliable. Not to mention the +100% shield boost (lvl 4); you will notice the increased protection.

Agreed. The twin factors of 100% shield boost and the fact it triggers whenever you hit the button come hell or high water - swamped by husks, doing the fire dance, on the floor, smashed, whatever - make it rank as one of, if not the best bonus power in the game for the Adept.

[Athenau]

I have no idea what you're talking about. In the Dantius Towers Barrier Adept video Shepard uses: 16 Singularities; 5 Pulls; 25 Throws; 11 Warps and 12 Barriers (4 completely unnecessary if I just waited 1-2 s behind cover for shield regen). Using powers 69 times; only 17.4 % Heavy Barrier. I use Barrier more often in Claymore videos but still well below 30% of overall power usage, plus there's no other way to play like this without using Barrier (or GSB); only VG can do so due to the constant shield regen using Charge.

I was talking about the claymore video. And every time you rushed down with the claymore you spammed barrier. If you don't "know what I'm talking about" you're either not reading my posts or being purposefully obtuse.  Oh, and btw, using your numbers barrier put you in cooldown almost as much as the rest of your skills combined.

Nor wrong. Soldier is a completely different class compared to Adept and played 'right' Soldiers only need AR - ED only slows Soldier down; damage done by ED is neglectable compared to 2 AR; plus AR reduces damage taken, allows fast movement to get near the enemy/behind cover fast - Soldiers don't really need extra shields; Barrier and GSB are still useful bonus powers for Soldiers, lvl 1 will save your ass when no other power/medkit can.

Nope. This all falls apart once you start taking health damage. You assume that you can stand out firing in adrenaline rush for the full duration every time it's available. This is wrong, even with heightened rush two or three enemies can taken down your shields before it end  and triggering rush again without waiting for regen can leave you in a bad position. ED allows your shields you last almost twice as long before going down and is an instant, perfectly accurate nuke that can be used on the move and with minimal opportunity cost.

ED never offers more survivability than Barrier; you've to rely on enemy shields to make it work - Barrier always works.

You keep pretending like things you can drain are in short supply. Every non elite enemy (something like 70-80% of them) on that mission is synthetic or has shields.

You're saying "it would have sucked for a Soldier" meaning you never tried it; you're expecting it to be bad and claim it would have sucked based on that assumption alone.

I've tried it with GSB, which is essentially the same skill with a weapon damage boost and sans the instant cast, so unless you're saying that's magically going to change the argument (hint, it won't), you'd be wrong again.

If it's all about speed I'm really interested to watch your ED Soldier clearing the Dantius Towers. You must be very good if you can clear that level a lot faster than I did with my Adept. I don't do speedruns btw, but I like playing aggressive and love shotguns; I don't care much about effectiveness; I just want to have fun

Why on earth are you comparing the soldier to your adept. The obvious comparison is shotgun + barrier adept run 'n gun vs the typical adept playstyle of defense strips + CC + warp bombs.

Modifié par Athenau, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[Athenau]

Ok dudes, here's a vid showing what I'm talking about. Not a perfect run by any means, but good enough. Apologies in advance for the poop quality, youtube reencoded it for some reason.
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Athenau, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:59 .