84 réponses à ce sujet

[Talgrath]

Do you need to do things in some specific order to get a good dwarven ending overall or does either choice result in pretty crappy things happening?

[Sarah1281]

No matter what, don't have the combination of Harrowmont and Anvil. That's a horrible ending. The Chantry contemplate a Divine March if you help Burkel but if you don't do that they'll conteplate one for the Circle of apostates that forms there if you do Dagna's quest. Under Harrowmont w/out the Anvil nothing really changes but Bhelen, with or without the anvil, dissolves the Assembly and rules alone. He makes a lot of necessary changes to try to bring Orzammar into the modern age.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bhelen. Then Bhelen. And don't forget Bhelen.

[Giggles_Manically]

Bhelen with no Anvil, and an ignored Brother Burkel is the best ending really.

Also do the Legion side quest while in the Deep Roads.



Harrowmont, with the anvil and a chantry is the worst thing for Orzamar period.

[Sarah1281]

Why does everyone insist a Chantry is so bad for Orzammar? The *potential* Exalted March? Happens with Dagna.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why does everyone insist a Chantry is so bad for Orzammar? The *potential* Exalted March? Happens with Dagna.

I think that a murdered clergy member sets up a more potential risk than just some random mages hiding in the mountains can.

Besides Bhelen will just do his normal awsomeness and calm things out.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why does everyone insist a Chantry is so bad for Orzammar? The *potential* Exalted March? Happens with Dagna.

I think that a murdered clergy member sets up a more potential risk than just some random mages hiding in the mountains can.

Besides Bhelen will just do his normal awsomeness and calm things out.

I disagree. Dagna's ending doesn't cause 'some random mages hiding in the mountains.' It causes the presence of a rival Circle of appostates with direct access to lyrium. It allows them to get organized as its a safe haven for apostates. What is the death of one missionary compared to that? Imagine if Jowan, Anders, and everyone else could simply go to Orzammar when they decided to leave the Circle. If the Chantry is already paying close attention to Orzammar because of Burkel, they won't set up a Circle there. The Circle, while it could possibly be used against darkspawn, is far more serious than Burkel's death.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why does everyone insist a Chantry is so bad for Orzammar? The *potential* Exalted March? Happens with Dagna.

I think that a murdered clergy member sets up a more potential risk than just some random mages hiding in the mountains can.

Besides Bhelen will just do his normal awsomeness and calm things out.

I disagree. Dagna's ending doesn't cause 'some random mages hiding in the mountains.' It causes the presence of a rival Circle of appostates with direct access to lyrium. It allows them to get organized as its a safe haven for apostates. What is the death of one missionary compared to that? Imagine if Jowan, Anders, and everyone else could simply go to Orzammar when they decided to leave the Circle. If the Chantry is already paying close attention to Orzammar because of Burkel, they won't set up a Circle there. The Circle, while it could possibly be used against darkspawn, is far more serious than Burkel's death.

Well all Bhelen can say is "im going to tell everyone how you make templars, or move the miners of lyrium into other safer places".

Besides Templars are amazing mage/demon/apostate killers, which dwarves lack, so I doubt it would go well for the chantry.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why does everyone insist a Chantry is so bad for Orzammar? The *potential* Exalted March? Happens with Dagna.

I think that a murdered clergy member sets up a more potential risk than just some random mages hiding in the mountains can.

Besides Bhelen will just do his normal awsomeness and calm things out.

I disagree. Dagna's ending doesn't cause 'some random mages hiding in the mountains.' It causes the presence of a rival Circle of appostates with direct access to lyrium. It allows them to get organized as its a safe haven for apostates. What is the death of one missionary compared to that? Imagine if Jowan, Anders, and everyone else could simply go to Orzammar when they decided to leave the Circle. If the Chantry is already paying close attention to Orzammar because of Burkel, they won't set up a Circle there. The Circle, while it could possibly be used against darkspawn, is far more serious than Burkel's death.

Well all Bhelen can say is "im going to tell everyone how you make templars, or move the miners of lyrium into other safer places".

Besides Templars are amazing mage/demon/apostate killers, which dwarves lack, so I doubt it would go well for the chantry.

A lyrium addiction does not make a Templar. Alistair has all the Templar skills but no addiction. I doubt Bhelen knows about the addiction. Supposedly, all the lyrium is for the mages.

Your 'I don't an Exalted March would go well for the Chantry' (which really depends how many people they sent or how long they were willing to have a blockade) has nothing to do with why Burkel's epilogue is worse than Dagna's. If I'm going to help Dagna I'm also going to help Burkel because the Circle sounds far more dangerous than Burkel's death.

[Giggles_Manically]

In the past people get more excited from:

The Heathens are killing our faithful!!



Then:

The Heathens are having a party over there!



Not denying it can go bad, but Dagna is just so cute, and enthusiastic I cant avoid helping her, especially while playing a mage.

BTW- What did Aunn think about Dagna and Burkel Sarah.

[Super ._. Shepard]

i dont like the chantrys

[Sarah1281]

BTW- What did Aunn think about Dagna and Burkel Sarah.

She hasn't gotten there yet.

Edit: Though Irving did give her a note to give to Danga inviting her to come study at the Tower.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 22 août 2010 - 05:26 .

[Talgrath]

So basically, Bhelen is the better ending, in general, and what you do in the side quests can impact that as well.

[Elhanan]

Placing Bhelen on the throne for myself is not the good Dwarven ending; tis only beneficial to the Dwarves economically. Harrowmont is the better man, and simply continues to allow the Assembly to operate as is. With the exception of my Wardens that were compelled to help the Casteless, or could use their abilities to predict future events, I chose Harrowmont ca, 75% of the time.

There is no good ending for these Dwarves.

And I have never chosen to keep the Anvil, as Branka's raving lunacy and self-serving actions of horror deserved to be ended. Plus she could not be trusted, no matter how much my Warden's desired power.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

Placing Bhelen on the throne for myself is not the good Dwarven ending; tis only beneficial to the Dwarves economically. Harrowmont is the better man, and simply continues to allow the Assembly to operate as is. With the exception of my Wardens that were compelled to help the Casteless, or could use their abilities to predict future events, I chose Harrowmont ca, 75% of the time.
There is no good ending for these Dwarves.
And I have never chosen to keep the Anvil, as Branka's raving lunacy and self-serving actions of horror deserved to be ended. Plus she could not be trusted, no matter how much my Warden's desired power.

It is also beneficial for the dwarves militarily and for the good section of the population that is completely discarded. Being a good man has nothing to do with being a good king and as Harrowmont confesses he sees the King as a figurehead and the Assembly won't stop squabbling over who should be King until you step in - repeatedly - while they know a Blight is coming, how can this be seen as a good thing? 

[Last Darkness]

Main Quest: Put Bhelen on the throne, destroy the Anvil = Good ending for Dwarves.

Sub quests dont help Brother Burkle build a Chantry as they all die and the chantry gets destroyed then the other chantrys wage war on them because of it. Also along these lines if the Circle survives and your helped Dagna some bad things happen since she starts a new cirlce of magi in Orzamaar and the Chantry/Templars get pissed.

[Last Darkness]

Orzammar

• If Harrowmont
  becomes king, he further isolates Orzammar from the surface world.
  Harrowmont will eventually die - suggested he could not handle dwarven
  political infighting anymore, or he was poisoned.
• If The Warden destroyed the Anvil of the Void, a group of
  Dwarves will try to recreate it from the remains. The first golem they
  create is animated by a spirit taken from the Fade. It goes berserk,
  killing many, and further research is banned. Interest in reopening
  Caridin's research never wanes, however.
• Siding with Harrowmont and recovering the Anvil of the Void
  will also lead to a decline after initial success. Harrowmont will
  discourage trade with the surface, leading to further isolation. In
  addition, after Harrowmont refuses Branka more volunteers for the Anvil,
  she will begin raiding the surface world for the needed ingredients.
  Eventually the surface world will retaliate, and some of Orzammar's
  tunnels will collapses in a battle - cutting off all access to the
  surface. This also happens even if the Dwarf Warden requests human
  military aid from Queen Anora in battling darkspawn in the deep roads.
• Siding with Bhelen and preserving the Anvil is greeted with
  cheers and celebration, at first, until Branka refuses to produce golems
  solely for the king which results in Bhelen launching his forces
  against her fortress in the Deep Roads. After years of siege, this
  proves fruitless as the fort is protected by a legion of golems making
  it impregnable.
• Siding with Bhelen
  and destroying the Anvil will cause Orzammar to come into a new age of
  prosperity at the expense of a dictatorship. Bhelen strengthens
  Orzammar's ties with the surface world. He also grants casteless greater
  rights and privileges in exchange for fighting the darkspawn. This
  policy allows Orzammar to reclaim lost territory, but it upsets the
  noble and warrior castes. After several failed assassination attempts,
  he dissolves the Assembly and rules alone.
• If The Warden helped Brother Burkel near the Tapster's and
  convinced the Shaper to grant him the right to preach his sermons to
  others, he will end up converting quite a few souls to the Chantry. The
  majority of the rigid dwarven populace will not react well to this, and
  Burkel is killed while resisting arrest. With his death, the Chantry
  itself will then consider leading an Exalted March
  on the dwarves to avenge this perceived slight upon their religion. It
  is unknown if they ever do go through with this, however, as it is only
  suggested during the ending credits.
• If The Warden helps Dagna join the Circle of Magi, she will later author a comprehensive theory of how lyrium vapors relate to the supply of magic. It gains a great deal of attention and inspires mages from other parts of Thedas
  to establish a new circle in Orzammar itself, one that has ready access
  to dwarven lyrium... and lies outside the chantry's power completely.
  The willingness of Orzammar to harbor Apostates
  sparks outrage that begins whispers that the Divine is contemplating a
  new Exalted march. A Magi Warden who requests that the tower be returned
  to the mages and helped Dagna will not include the last line.
• If The Warden sided with the Templars in the Circle of Magi quest, informing Dagna of the destruction of the Circle causes her to go and immediately help rebuild the tower.
• If the Dwarf Noble Warden makes the ultimate sacrifice,
  Alistair or Anora (depending on who becomes king/queen) tells Gorim that
  The Warden's body shall be returned to Orzammar to be returned to the
  stone next to the late King Endrin Aeducan with rights restored. Alistair/Anora also sends soldiers to help the dwarves battle the Darkspawn.

[Sarah1281]

Sub quests dont help Brother Burkle build a Chantry as they all die and the chantry gets destroyed then the other chantrys wage war on them because of it.

We don't KNOW that the Chantry wages war on them. It says they CONTEMPLATE it. They consider it but we do not know if they go through with it anymore than we know if they go through with it if Dagna causes a Circle of apostates to spring up in Orzammar.

[Last Darkness]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Sub quests dont help Brother Burkle build a Chantry as they all die and the chantry gets destroyed then the other chantrys wage war on them because of it.

We don't KNOW that the Chantry wages war on them. It says they CONTEMPLATE it. They consider it but we do not know if they go through with it anymore than we know if they go through with it if Dagna causes a Circle of apostates to spring up in Orzammar.

Your right, had to read it again when I posted the big list.

Still Harrowmont+Anvil+Burkle+Dagna+Mages = Screwed Dwarves.

[Homebound]

Theres no good ending for the Dwarves.

[Elhanan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

... There is no good ending for these Dwarves....

It is also beneficial for the dwarves militarily and for the good section of the population that is completely discarded. Being a good man has nothing to do with being a good king and as Harrowmont confesses he sees the King as a figurehead and the Assembly won't stop squabbling over who should be King until you step in - repeatedly - while they know a Blight is coming, how can this be seen as a good thing? 

See above quote....

While Bhelen does add to the military by allowing the Casteless to serve, does anyone believe that Bhelen is doing this for the good of anyone save himself? And this also adds to the economic benefits which I mentioned.

My fave playthrough of this was done by my second DC Warden. He placed Bhelen on the throne, but also illuminated every dirty secret of his to every Dwarf in Orzammar by working with Harrowmont, made certain the Assembly would disband, helped his sister become an ambassador, and in my vision he conscripted Harrowmont into the Warden's to help guide the assault in Denerim. That said, this is not a good ending; just the best one I could devise for that Warden.

And while being a good man does not make a good King, an evil man most certainly will not be either.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since when did 'why' someone do it trump the effects? And evil men certainly have made good Kings in the past: the factor of competence and success have made history look kinder on them than a life-time look at their moral character would.



With Harrowmount, the dwarves continue losing their war of survival against the Darkspawn for lack of manpower, the casteless still have no rights and are more or less left to rot, the ability to continue fighting a war diminishes with the lack of economic base. About all that is preserved, not improved, to die is the democratic oligarchy of the Assembly, which can hardly even be called democratic in the first place so self-interested is it.



With Bhelen, the caste system begins a long-due reformation, improving the economic/social lots of the many casteless and all their descendants. The military is expanded (with those same casteless) and is able to push back the Darkspawn, giving Orzammar safety and even the potential for growth. That makes all of the Dwarven kingdom safer, just as the expanded trade makes the entire kingdom richer.





So, on one hand, you have an Orzammar where no one gets a better lot in life, everyone gets poorer, the population problem is never going to be solved (because of the caste system), and the military which has been steadily losing in a war of attrition to the Darkspawn is never changed as well (because of the caste system).



On the other hand, Orzammar is richer, safer, the worst off can have a better lot in life, the military is strengthened, and the population problem is greatly lessened by the integration of the casteless into society.



But, since that second hand is wielded by an ambitious man, it is thus disqualified.

[Giggles_Manically]

Harrowmont = Marc Antony.

While a good general and respected by many powerful people, he is not a forward thinker, and is stuck in the rut of tradition. Dooming Orzamar into a very dark sprial.

While a "good man" he is a lousy king.



Bhelen = Augustus, Caesar, and Gaius Marius.

While he is an scheming and devious little schnook, Bhelen moves Orzamar forward, and really only cheeses off the assembly, and nobles.

[AntiChri5]

Ugh, do we have to bring real world history/politics into it?



Why not mention nazi's while your at it?



Long story short, Bhelen is a real ******, but brings some much needed social changes.

[Rvlion]

Bhelen and preservation of the anvil could in theory be the best choice, had Branka and Bhelen both not been so terribly selfish and crazy...