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[Sarah1281]

Individualy neither of them deserves to rule the dwarves but one is worse for their people then the other particulary when the Anvil is involved "Bhelen asks for volenteers, Harrowmont forces castless and slaves" for example.

Well, really it's Harrowmont being too weak to stop Branka from forcing people she kidnaps from the Surface. I don't think Orzammar actually has slavery. Why would they need it with the casteless?



And what do you mean people who chose Bhelen fell for his treachery? You can know just how treacherous he is and a lot of what he's done to get where he is and still pick him. How is that FALLING for anything? And I think a lot of people believe Harrowmont is more trustworthy because there isn't any evidence in the game of him lying at all (which could just mean he's better at covering it up) and becuase if he were more devious one would expect him to be more effective.

[Elhanan]

The only crime I know Harrowmont has committed is allowing Bhelen to break the law in convicting his brother for the death of Trian. And while going from the Thaigs of battle into politics is not a choice I would make, it does not mean you are automatically corrupt, and there is no evidence to support that Harrowmont is criminal.

Trust and mistrust are both earned commodities..

As for the Caste system, all are at fault. The Shaperate never records their names, so a DC Warden becoming a Paragon came from where exactly? Someone convicted of a crimanl offense is striken from the records, so where does a DN Paragon originate? As the Shaper mentions in the DN Origin, while you may not care for history, it does not make it less true. And unless this tradition changes, the entire system is doomed to erode and continue down the sewers. And this includes Bhelen.

So Bhelen is a savior for enabling the Casteless to fight Darkspawn? What a guy! The Legion already allows for that. What is needed is more of what the drunken Noble was saying in the tacern, and removing the Caste system entirely. But this did not happen with either King, so again: no good conclusion. The best thing I recall is a DC Warden becoming a Paragon, and having Casteless enter his House, but it still is set within a system that does not work.

[Sarah1281]

Someone convicted of a crimanl offense is striken from the records, so where does a DN Paragon originate?

Obviously the DN is restored to House Aeducan by either Bhelen or Harrowmont at the time of the coronation and I would imagine that the Shaper refuses to acknowledge that there was a period of time where she didn't exist.

So Bhelen is a savior for enabling the Casteless to fight Darkspawn? What a guy! The Legion already allows for that. What is needed is more of what the drunken Noble was saying in the tacern, and removing the Caste system entirely. But this did not happen with either King, so again: no good conclusion. The best thing I recall is a DC Warden becoming a Paragon, and having Casteless enter his House, but it still is set within a system that does not work.

The DC wouldn't be the first casteless Paragon. They could quite possibly be the second but Gherlon the Blood-Risen was born casteless before going to the Surface and returning to somehow take the throne (I would assume he was made a Paragon so it was less embarrassing to have a casteless ruling them all).



And you don't think that giving the casteless the ability to fight darkspawn without needing to hold a funeral, act like they're dead, convince themselves that they are already dead, and not be allowed to leave the Deep Roads often is a good thing? One of the reasons that the casteless are so oppressed (if you read the codex) and the carta is such a problem is because the nobles NEED casteless fighters but since they can't fight as is, they need to have the only way they can advance be through prostitution or joining the Legion.

[Maconbar]

Bhelen reminds me of Stalin in many ways. Both came to power by effectively outmaneuvering their political rivals and then killing them. They crushed opposition members of the upper castes. In Stalin's case including the educated and officer classes. Both also proceeded to annihilate large sections of the rural peasantry. It wouldn't surprise me if Bhelen's reign moved in that direction also.

[Elhanan]

The Legion gains House priveledges if you complete their inclusion into the records, so things change there. And as everyone knows, the Casteless already fight; just not legally.

None of this changes the fact that Bhelen is a criminal, and placing him on the Throne is no better choice than Jarvia, Leske, or Loghain. Some may not care for the ethics and morals of their leadership (or their ideas of saviors), but some do.

[Sarah1281]

Elhanan wrote...

The Legion gains House priveledges if you complete their inclusion into the records, so things change there. And as everyone knows, the Casteless already fight; just not legally.
None of this changes the fact that Bhelen is a criminal, and placing him on the Throne is no better choice than Jarvia, Leske, or Loghain. Some may not care for the ethics and morals of their leadership (or their ideas of saviors), but some do.

Except all of them prove ineffectual leaders. Even Jarvia, for all that she made the carta infinitely more efficient than Beraht had it, overstepped herself and harassed the casted dwarves too much thus sowing the seeds of the their own destruction.

And why in the world would someone well aware of the population crisis facing Orzammar and who needs the casteless to combat darkspawn start killing them? Bhelen lacks morality not intelligence.

[Elhanan]

All of them are ineffectual leaders, including Bhelen. When confronted with opposition, he goes to murder. And there would seem to be at least two examples that power and personal prestige overwhelmed common sense and intelligence on the throne, and I do not consider Bhelen above it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

All of them are ineffectual leaders, including Bhelen. When confronted with opposition, he goes to murder. And there would seem to be at least two examples that power and personal prestige overwhelmed common sense and intelligence on the throne, and I do not consider Bhelen above it.

Funny that Harrowmont sends fanatics at you when you oppose him. I assume those fanatics were sent to murder you.

As for casteless fighting being a not so big deal. Play Awakening. Many casteless foguht for Kal Hirol because it was the first time someone gave a damn about them and thought it possible that they have honor and dignity. This is what Bhelen is giving them, a chance to prove themselves and serve their city. Harrowmont gives them nothing and views them as nothing.

And the epilogue speaks for itself. Anyone thinking that Bhelen is a worse or equal king to Harrowmont is just being hilariously delusional.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Maconbar wrote...

Bhelen reminds me of Stalin in many ways. Both came to power by effectively outmaneuvering their political rivals and then killing them. They crushed opposition members of the upper castes. In Stalin's case including the educated and officer classes. Both also proceeded to annihilate large sections of the rural peasantry. It wouldn't surprise me if Bhelen's reign moved in that direction also.

A very rudementary understanding of history and politics. Most kings and leaders had to eliminate rivals to get in power . It didn't turn them into Stalin, who was motivated by ideology that Bhelen does not share.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

The Legion gains House priveledges if you complete their inclusion into the records, so things change there. And as everyone knows, the Casteless already fight; just not legally.

No, they don't change. The Legion does not fight for rights and individual castless, while allowed to fight, are not granted any rights by virtue of beign dead already. The Legion is not a method of social advancement because again, they are dead already. Even if you complete the Dead caste quest and put Harromwont on the throne, the epilogue is clear that the situation for the castless gets worse.

While Bhelen is providing the castless a chance of social advancement both individually and collectively.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

All of them are ineffectual leaders, including Bhelen. When confronted with opposition, he goes to murder. And there would seem to be at least two examples that power and personal prestige overwhelmed common sense and intelligence on the throne, and I do not consider Bhelen above it.

Funny that Harrowmont sends fanatics at you when you oppose him. I assume those fanatics were sent to murder you.
 

That I'm not so sure of. Do fanatics try to kill you? Yes. Are they sent? Perhaps, but the thing about fanatics is that they don't need orders to act in extreme fashions.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

It's been estabilished that he's a good politician, just a horrible leader. (In large part, by his own admission, that he doesn't wish to or intend to lead.)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

It's been estabilished that he's a good politician, just a horrible leader. (In large part, by his own admission, that he doesn't wish to or intend to lead.)

It's been established that he is an experienced administrator. That does not make him a good politician. Being unable to secure the loyalty of his men makes him a bad politician. 

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

It's been estabilished that he's a good politician, just a horrible leader. (In large part, by his own admission, that he doesn't wish to or intend to lead.)

It's been established that he is an experienced administrator. That does not make him a good politician. Being unable to secure the loyalty of his men makes him a bad politician. 

He does have the loyalty of his men: that why they're Harrowmount fanatics. He might not (or might) have their complete obedience, but that's arguably a sign of leadership, not political ability. (And even then I would argue that after so many levels, no leader can be expected to have personal leash on everyone under him.)

He's was a respected general under the last King, and the legislator of many of the compromises in the Assembly. These are his resume items, and are never in dispute even by Bhelen. The second in particular can not be done by a bad politician without skills in Orzammar.

[Elhanan]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

And does the same go for good king Bhelen?

Bringing prosperity to the majority does not make one a good leader, as often the few are the ones bearing the burden. And while some do not believe that morality matters, I for one of a different mindset and would rather have a good man that is a poor politician than the reverse.

[CalJones]

He has the loyalty of a few fanatics, but as Zevran points out, he can't even persuade his own men to fight in the Proving. A good leader will inspire men to risk their lives for his cause. Harrowmont is not such a man.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Elhanan wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

And does the same go for good king Bhelen?

Bringing prosperity to the majority does not make one a good leader, as often the few are the ones bearing the burden. And while some do not believe that morality matters, I for one of a different mindset and would rather have a good man that is a poor politician than the reverse.

Yes it does. I for one do not consider the use to fanatics to eliminate opposition to be a bad thing in that context.

The few always bear the burden. It's better than having the majority bear the burden which is what Harrowmont's leadership will lead.

Of course your opinion is valid. But I certainlty hope that you never have a say in who leads my country, no offense. I prefer results. Not subjective ideas that don't bring results.

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Dean. I think we have different definitions of a "politician". In my opinion, a politician necessarily has to have leadership qualities. I am not arguing that Harromwont lacks political skills and understanding and hence why I refer to him as an experienced administrator (though his policies as king are pathetic). But his defensive demeanour vs Bhelen's aggressive politicking makes him a bad politician in my books.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

I think we see from the first time your PC steps into the Commons that the succession is heated, to say the least. Both Harrowmont and Bhelen know there are extremists on both sides.

I can't say whether Harrowmont approved, or whether he'd be upset over his opposition being murdered. I'm just arguing that fanatics don't necessarily act on orders.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Let's assume that they are not sent. I don't think Harrowmont would be sad to discover that his opposition was murdered. Harrowmont may not have sent them, but I do not think he dissaproved of them. And if he didn't know about them at all, wel that makes him a very poor politician, but that's already established.

I think we see from the first time your PC steps into the Commons that the succession is heated, to say the least. Both Harrowmont and Bhelen know there are extremists on both sides.

I can't say whether Harrowmont approved, or whether he'd be upset over his opposition being murdered. I'm just arguing that fanatics don't necessarily act on orders.

Granted. But the mercs sent personally by Harrowmont to the deep roads also try to kill us if I recall. I assume they are acting on orders.

Anyways, I gtg. See you guys later.
Oh and I don't think I've had the time to welcome you here Dean. Always nice to have a reasonable person post here every once and a while  

[CalJones]

Ah yes... Of course, if you support Harrowmont they are sent by Bhelen instead. Still, anyone who has played through the DN origin knows the backstabbing and double dealing that goes on in dwavern politics. It's necessary to survival in that arena. Harrowmont won't have risen as far as he has without getting his own hands dirty, much as he likes to come across as the more honorable choice.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I forgot about the mercs in the Deep Roads. I'd have to replay that bit to remember the dialogue...always possible they were hired by an allied House, though.



For some reason I just don't see Harrowmont as the sort to hire assassins. He seems to rely on his 'good' reputation too much for that. (I could, naturally, be completely wrong, heh.)

[AntiChri5]

Harrowmont puts on a great act.

[Dean_the_Young]

CalJones wrote...

He has the loyalty of a few fanatics, but as Zevran points out, he can't even persuade his own men to fight in the Proving. A good leader will inspire men to risk their lives for his cause. Harrowmont is not such a man.

That's hardly fair, considering one of the men was lied to and led to believe that Harrowmont was conceding when no such thing was occuring, and the other was blackmailed by threatening the woman he loved. Once the truth was revealed (or, in the case of the second, not going to be revealed), both were eager to fight.