47 réponses à ce sujet

[resiak]

Hey, it's my second run through of BGII, this time with a monk. Both times, I've done the D'Aernise Keep Quest, and TorGal always alludes to the mysterious "Stronger," who, unless I'm reading something wrong, basically ordered him to go in and ransack the keep.

Does Stronger every pop up? Is it part of a larger quest that I missed the first time around, or is that really all there is to it? 

[Humanoid_Taifun]

The stronger probably got the same treatment as Kalah's friend.

They didn't get into the game.

[Seagloom]

I always took it as the Roenall family. I'm currently replaying BG2 so I may amend this later after experiencing the area again. It's been years since I last played. I do distinctly remember putting the clues together as leading back to that family however.

Modifié par Seagloom, 22 août 2010 - 12:40 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Personally I don't see why they'd do that. The castle was going to them already as Nalia hadn't yet broken up with their boy, and who wants to damage their own property?

Editing on a mission for better language.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 22 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[Slyx]

*SPOILER BELOW*



The castle only went to them because Nalia's father was dead, no? It makes sense that the Roenalls, or Isaea in particular, could have paid the trolls to invade the keep to kill her father and expedite the process.

I also believe that Daleson, or someone, mentioned that the trolls hadn't ransacked the place, or hadn't really damaged it much.

It was also clear that Isaea wasn't above forceful or devious tactics to make sure the keep ended up in his hands. This is evidenced by how he kidnaps Nalia if she's in your party (in an effort to regain control of the keep) after you take the keep as your stronghold.

*On an unrelated note* - When I try to leave 2 spaces between paragraphs on this message board, it always leaves 4.  Why is that?

Modifié par Slyx, 22 août 2010 - 03:34 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

It's because you use the "Quick Reply" I guess. If you go for "... or use the standard form", you'll end up with much more post designing options.

Oh and yes, I agree that the attack did speed the process up a bit, but it would have been so much more cheaper and easier to simply have somebody assassinate Mr De'Arnise. (also less stains on the carpet)

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 22 août 2010 - 07:39 .

[Carinna]

This is one of those frustrating ending-less quests in the game.  All you really know is (not in any particular order):

A. The trolls didn't invade it on their own or Tor'gal wouldn't have mentioned a "Stronger."
B. Many of the D'Arnise guards were paid to leave (Tor'gal tells you this if you pick the right responses to hear it).  They certainly weren't paid by the trolls (you don't specifically know this, but it's implied because why would trolls pay anyone?).  So someone with money had to have done it.
C. Isaea is worried enough about Nalia not wanting to marry him to have her kidnapped (he may blame it on her behavior, but what is it really?  Fear that he won't be able to find her to get the marriage to go through).  It's not much of a stretch to think that he might have been worried that she'd talk her father out of the marriage arrangements if given enough time.
D. Isaea is certainly not above illegal behavior as shown by the evidence you gather to free Nalia.
E. Papa Roenall arrives to take over the castle overtly if you've taken it as your stronghold (although it's the very last stronghold quest so you can easily complete the game and never see this happen).

I can put together the following scenario based on the evidence above (the facts are in bold type):

Isaea knew Nalia went slumming.  Isaea was also involved in the slaving ring, which did a lot of business with the Copper Coronet.   Nalia did not approve of slavery and she was very vocal with her opinions.   Given all this, it doesn't take much to assume that Isaea knew Nalia hung out at the Copper Coronet and might put a damper on his slavery business.  In addition to this, because she is opinionated, he must also know that she doesn't want to marry him and is only being forced to by custom (you can hear her tone and opinion at her father's funeral when she speaks to Isaea there).  Nalia also states that her father had been able to stall the marriage.  It's not much of a stretch to assume that given time, he might have torn up the marriage agreement altogether.  This alone could have been the driving force behind the Roenalls invading the keep (using trolls as a proxy to hide behind):  If they didn't invade and kill Lord de'Arnise immediately, they might lose the keep for good.

There is no motive to invade for anyone other than the Roenalls, unless you count the Lady Delcia.  She is the only other person with a motive:  to stop Nalia's slumming and force her to marry someone of noble lineage, i.e. Isaea.  If we assume Isaea knew Nalia's opinions, certainly Delcia knew them (and disapproved).  While Delcia doesn't need the castle "invaded" (only her brother killed), she does need it to appear like an outside attack.  And although Lord de'Arnise gets killed, she managed to survive, even though the only entrance to the dungeon is in her bedroom.    Also, if you take the keep as your stronghold, and do not kill or threaten Delcia, she will leave of her own accord if you are good or neutral and stay if you are evil.

Nalia is kidnapped whether or not you take the stronghold.  If you don't (or can't) take it, the Roenalls move in.  At this point, the only motive Isaea has to marry Nalia is to put some lipstick on the takeover.  He might be worried about her rooting out his slavery business, but he could easily just kill her to prevent that and make it look like a peasant did it.  On the other hand, if Delcia is involved, she would want Nalia brought back and the marriage forced to go through; that would have been the entire basis for her involvement, so she'd hardly just let the Roenalls have the keep for free while Nalia ran off to play in the dirt.  In her mind, with that attitude, killing her brother would be justified if it kept Nalia away from the rabble; her brother deserved it for being too lenient with her.

I'd be interested to know if anyone else can think of motives for anyone else (anyone else actually in the game, that is).

[Humanoid_Taifun]

I believe the fact that the trolls refer to their employer only as the "stronger" has some relevance, as I don't think they'd give such a title to just anybody. Their dealings with him involved more than money. Roenall may have earned this title by attacking in force and defeating their leader (effectively replacing him) - but as I said before, I can't imagine anybody with so much right to the place invading it in such a roundabout fashion. An assassination would have been cheaper and could easily have been blamed on an ansatisfied peasant ("He tried to please the peasants, and look what that got him" - I can almost hear it already). And don't forget that whoever was planning to take the castle that way had to either hire a group of mercenaries to clean it again (because your involvement could hardly have been planned for), have further arrangements for the trolls to leave after killing everybody important (which did not happen, obviously), or leave them where they are. If the Roenalls were worried about their reputation if Mr De'Arnise were to be assassinated, then having trolls in their employment would certainly not be an option.

TLDR: I'm more awesome than you, because you, unwilling to read that wall of text, will not be able to refute my arguments.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 22 août 2010 - 09:31 .

[Seagloom]

Nothing else I can add now. Carinna covered everything. That was what I could only vaguely recall when writing my earlier post. For me it came across strongly that the Roenalls were responsible after adding everything up in Nalia's side quest and the stronghold. I never considered Delcia Caan's might have an angle though. Interesting.

[Carinna]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
TLDR: I'm more awesome than you, because you, unwilling to read that wall of text, will not be able to refute my arguments.

My wall of text was bigger than yours. 

As you mention, it's also perfectly possible for a deus et machina to have caused the whole thing; just a lot less interesting.  If we go with the idea that the developers originally intended to pursue this plot development further, then it's more likely that someone already in the story is the culprit.  However a deus et machina can't be refuted because there is no basis on which to refute.  However the fact that CHARNAME and party tore the keep to pieces is not sufficient evidence that Isaea and Delcia weren't to blame; they could hardly have expected some outsider to charge in and upset their plans.

So far as working with the trolls elsewhere is concerned (as you mention the culprit must have done), I recall some trolls working in the slave ship, getting the children ready for the arena fights.  That provides a connection:  trolls-slavery-Isaea-trolls-keep. 

None of us can prove positively who was responsible unless one of us has access to the developers' notes, and I certainly don't.  I'm just speculating who could have done it based on existing facts.  I could have made another argument that Irenicus set the whole thing up as one of CHARNAME's tests, but that would have been on much thinner evidence than just having it be Isaea's plan.  For the record, I don't believe Delcia was involved much beyond the suggestion stage, and was only actively involved by maybe informing them of the layout (and existence?) of the dungeon (remember Nalia did not want it mentioned), and by not standing in their way.  

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say you're wrong or anything, I just have a different view on the situation (or rather on the odds that the Roenalls are involved).
By the way, it's Deus ex Machina.
But anyway, BG2 is full with such things. Most of all I hate the genie that appears 3 times without any explanation whatsoever.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 23 août 2010 - 12:00 .

[Sparky The Barbarian]

Interestingly, there are two Nalia Romance mods. Both of them have Isaea as the mastermind behind Torgal's invasion of the keep. One even ties him into the Twisted Rune.

[Morbidest]

An alternate viewpoint about the "Stronger" comes from  Nalia's father's traitorus chief guard, who (like Kalah) says that his new master has taught him powerful magic. I've always assumed that that gives us 3 possible suspects (since the Toenails couldn't summon up a good breakfast )

1-Firkraag looking to pick up another duchy cheap; afterall, who is more magical than a dragon, and Coster thinks highly of Firk's abilities
2-Old Jon I. causing trouble just for practise - afterall he lived right next door to the circus and could easily have sucked in Kalah
3-the Twisted Rune being their usual evil selves.

I'm sure there's other possible suspects given how corrupt the Cowled Wizards are.
Does anyone else have favorite suspects?

P.S.:  does the newer Nalia romance continue into ToB?

Modifié par Morbidest, 23 août 2010 - 04:37 .

[jaxsbudgie]

I never understood why or how Glacias got charmed, I wasn't aware that any of the Trolls used powerful magics? Has anyone every tried to charm him back?

Also, why are there Umber Hulks and Yuan-Ti? They don't normally work alongside Trolls do they?
Where would someone even obtain Umber Hulks and Yuan Ti? I can only think of the Umar Hills ...

It's interesting how people are making the connection to Isaea, I never did it myself but it does make sense. And like someone said, there are Trolls in the slavers ships, and Yuan-Ti too, just seems to to fit quite well doesn't it? Afterall, Isaea is a slaver right, and he has dealings with that building in the Temple district right?
Is De'Arnise Keep on the edge of some troll moors or something? I can't remember if they mentioned of previous Troll skirmishes in the past.

The mention of the Lady Delcia makes me think of the conspiracy surrounding Gertrude in Hamlet, and how she definitely killed Ophelia and made it out that she drowned.

Modifié par jaxsbudgie, 23 août 2010 - 08:00 .

[Slyx]

Yes, if you charm Glaicus (the head guard in the keep that has been charmed by TorGal I believe) you get 22000 xp, instead of 9k for killing him, and he says how he was charmed, gives you the acid piece of the flail voluntarily, and talks about a few other things.



He also says that it was Isaea that planned the whole thing, though I'm not sure if that's helpful. =P

[Rzepik2]

Slyx wrote...

Yes, if you charm Glaicus (the head guard in the keep that has been charmed by TorGal I believe) you get 22000 xp, instead of 9k for killing him, and he says how he was charmed, gives you the acid piece of the flail voluntarily, and talks about a few other things.

He also says that it was Isaea that planned the whole thing, though I'm not sure if that's helpful. =P

I put my money on Yuan-Ti mage rather than TorGal.

Does he really say that part about Isaea? I don't remember that...

[Shadow_Leech07]

Carinna wrote...
There is no motive to invade for anyone other than the Roenalls, unless you count the Lady Delcia.  She is the only other person with a motive:  to stop Nalia's slumming and force her to marry someone of noble lineage, i.e. Isaea.  If we assume Isaea knew Nalia's opinions, certainly Delcia knew them (and disapproved).  While Delcia doesn't need the castle "invaded" (only her brother killed), she does need it to appear like an outside attack.  And although Lord de'Arnise gets killed, she managed to survive, even though the only entrance to the dungeon is in her bedroom.    Also, if you take the keep as your stronghold, and do not kill or threaten Delcia, she will leave of her own accord if you are good or neutral and stay if you are evil.

I've always been confused as to why and how Lady Delcia survived while her bedroom was the entrance to the troll headquarters. One simple guard isn't going to foil a pack of trolls. But I don't believe she is a legitimate suspect as the mastermind behind it all, she is probably just an accomplice of the Roenalls.

I always suspected the Roenalls were behind the troll attack but I always believed it to be Lord Roenall as I would expect that as leader of his family with all the resources to back him, he fit the part of 'stronger'. I didn't give it much furthur thought anyways, because charname just dominates the trolls and roenalls, there doesn't really need to have any furthur questions asked.

In any case since I've read this thread, it points more towards Isaea if anything.

Humanoid Taifun: You mentioned assasination attempt, and while there are advantages to this way, it is actually more easier with the trolls invading, and as we noticed with Nalia calling for help in Copper Coronet, no one really cared or wanted to contend with a pack of trolls. An assasination will draw unwanted attention to the Roenalls and possibly taint their reputation(and furthur investigation on the family), while a pack of trolls is just a pack of trolls. Only charname finds out that the trolls were hired, and this was after charname destroyed most of the trolls. Only charname can fit the pieces together, I'm betting the authorities  couldn't care less.  Well that's my opinion anyhow.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

And I've tried to explain why it's not as easy as just pointing the trolls into the right direction (because they are still in the castle).

[Shadow_Leech07]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

And I've tried to explain why it's not as easy as just pointing the trolls into the right direction (because they are still in the castle).

Well they obviously had help within the castle. As I mentioned, Lady Delcia was more likely the accomplice(if there weren't any others). She knew the layout of the castle, and knew the guard positions, as well as the location of the flail heads. Her behavior after charname 'rescues' her, all point to her betrayal of her brother(a common theme in Baldur's Gate).

As to why she is helping the Roenalls, I have no idea. They could've paid her off, she could've not liked her brother...etc alot of reasons. Again this is all opinion. The trolls might be stupid, but those yuan-ti mages, unlikely. I'm not saying that your idea of an assasination would prove to be far less cheaper(?) but I think it would be far more riskier, especially using a peasant. Not only do you have to worry about the education level, but also loyalty. Will a peasant really do it when it comes right down to it? For someone like Lady Delcia, she probably won't dirty her hands with it.

Another reason why they used trolls(and the other critters) is because human mercenaries would wish to be paid in gold or some other asset. The accounting records in the Roenalls building in government district would be investigated promptly. I would believe after her(Nalia) dad was killed by human mercenaries(or elf/dwarf/gnome...etc) she would promptly file allegations against the Roenalls.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 23 août 2010 - 03:42 .

[Slyx]

I was teasing about Glaicus saying anything about Isaea, but you CAN charm him, and you get more exp, he has things to say, etc.



Don't forget that the Umberhulks tunneled their way into the dungeon area from underground, so perhaps the trolls entered that way too (at least the ones residing in the dungeon area: Torgal, etc), and NOT through Lady Delcea's bedroom. The ones inside the keep perhaps went right through the front gate? They had to have gotten inside either through Nalia's secret passage near the Palisade, the front gate, or through the tunnel the umber hulks created and then through Lady Delcea's room.

[Slyx]

Re: Lady Delcia

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...
As to why she
is helping the Roenalls, I have no idea. They could've paid her off, she
could've not liked her brother...etc alot of reasons. Again this is all
opinion.

I believe Daleson mentioned how he was treated really well by Lord de'Arnise, and Nalia mentioned that her father and herself treated the servants well, and better than the Roenalls would.  Perhaps Lady Delcia was disgusted by how well they treated the servants, and decided that the keep wasn't being run properly by Lord de'Arnise, so agreed to assist the Roenalls in overtaking it.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...
Well they obviously had help within the castle. As I mentioned, Lady Delcia was more likely the accomplice(if there weren't any others). She knew the layout of the castle, and knew the guard positions, as well as the location of the flail heads. Her behavior after charname 'rescues' her, all point to her betrayal of her brother(a common theme in Baldur's Gate).

That's not what I'm talking about.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
And don't forget that whoever was planning to take the castle that way
had to either hire a group of mercenaries to clean it again (because
your involvement could hardly have been planned for), have further
arrangements for the trolls to leave after killing everybody important
(which did not happen, obviously), or leave them where they are. If the
Roenalls were worried about their reputation if Mr De'Arnise were to be
assassinated, then having trolls in their employment would certainly not
be an option.

So either they'd have to hire (and pay) mercenaries or deal with the trolls themselves, neither of which are good options, especially if your argument is that they were hardpressed on cash, because differently from an assassin who nobody would know about, these mercenaries would much more likely have to be paid publicly, with legal money (and not money that was made in smuggling business).

I think the fact that the trolls are still there exonerates the Roenalls to at least some degree, because they certainly wouldn't want them around for any prolonged amount of time (and they didn't seem to be planning to leave, even after killing everybody).

I'm not saying that your idea of an assasination would prove to be far less cheaper(?) but I think it would be far more riskier, especially using a peasant. Not only do you have to worry about the education level, but also loyalty. Will a peasant really do it when it comes right down to it?

I said they would blame a peasant, not use one.

Another reason why they used trolls(and the other critters) is because human mercenaries would wish to be paid in gold or some other asset. The accounting records in the Roenalls building in government district would be investigated promptly.

Money that officially doesn't exist is not going to be missed by an accountant.

I would believe after her(Nalia) dad was killed by human mercenaries(or elf/dwarf/gnome...etc) she would promptly file allegations against the Roenalls.

Which is why it would be very fortunate that such accusations have to go through Isaea first, apparently.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

...
And don't forget that whoever was planning to take the castle that way
had to either hire a group of mercenaries to clean it again (because
your involvement could hardly have been planned for), have further
arrangements for the trolls to leave after killing everybody important
(which did not happen, obviously), or leave them where they are. If the
Roenalls were worried about their reputation if Mr De'Arnise were to be
assassinated, then having trolls in their employment would certainly not

When Tor'Gal mentioned 'stronger', he's implying that he is the mercenary. They wouldn't need to hire a group of mercenaries to clean up the trolls because the trolls already fear him. They already know his power apparently(there are probably other reasons why trolls serve him). Isaea uses them because they are rather anonymous. I don't think you can really trace trolls as I don't think they leave a paper trail.

I said they would blame a peasant, not use one.

Sorry about that, I misread that.

Money that officially doesn't exist is not going to be missed by an accountant.

You're implying they work in the black market like the shadow thieves. Could they dip their hands in the black market and acquire invisible money? Possibly so. But unlikely. They could obviously dupe their records aka Enron...but it's(a human mercenary group) still going to point to their investigations and Isaea isn't going to like the authorities prying through his records finding out shady slave trade income.

Which is why it would be very fortunate that such accusations have to go through Isaea first, apparently.

She can always go above him, like charname did.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 23 août 2010 - 04:44 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...
When Tor'Gal mentioned 'stronger', he's implying that he is the mercenary. They wouldn't need to hire a group of mercenaries to clean up the trolls because the trolls already fear him. They already know his power apparently(there are probably other reasons why trolls serve him). Isaea uses them because they are rather anonymous. I don't think you can really trace trolls as I don't think they leave a paper trail.

With Mr Roenall coming to the castle telling the trolls to get out?
That just might work, but don't you think there are a few too many loose ends around, who might see him talking to the trolls (or at least that they leave as he arrives)?
After all, there are a number of survivors.

You're implying they work in the black market like the shadow thieves. Could they dip their hands in the black market and acquire invisible money? Possibly so. But unlikely.

I'm not implying anything. The smuggling business is canon.

She can always go above him, like charname did.

She'd have to break into his house though to acquire proof, which is something that Isaea clearly doesn't anticipate (also canon).

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 23 août 2010 - 04:52 .

[jaxsbudgie]

How about this guys. Faldorn sent them there. Yes? No?