11 réponses à ce sujet

[resiak]

Another noob question coming from someone who more or less stumbled through his/her first run-through and now is replaying and wants to understand more or less of the underlying system.

Alright, so the basic deal II get, that you get a damage bonus (or multiplier) as a thief (or stalker or whatever) when you attack whilst hiding in shadows.

How does this apply, though? Are you supposed to enter every battle hiding and then pop out, giving your first attack more punch? Or are you supposed to repeatedly re-hide in battle  and use it again and again? That seems kind of tedious and time-consuming, though...

The only time I can remember using Backstab on my first playthrough was when I was having trouble beating that drow mage in Suldanesselar outside of the priest's house (I think that's where he was). I sent Valygar in hidden, who struck with that awesome Katana of his that does Bleeding damage, thereby nicely interrupting the mage's spells for the next few rounds

I tried using this strategy later on with varying success. Backstab never again seemed as awesomely useful to me as it did in that one instance. So, how are you *supposed* to use it?

[Chebby]

You're supposed to think like a rogue. Look for shadows and hide in them, carry invisibility potions (make sure you don't have an AI script, or it'll just go HURRRR and cancel the invisibility first chance it gets), use stealth-improving armours and items, equip a ring of invisibility, perhaps indulge in improved invisibility for added concealment. It's much harder to naturally disappear in the thick of combat, I believe, but I never really went rogue classes for the backstabbing.

If I remember correctly, someone had claimed that move silently was at max efficiency at 100 and hide in shadows was at max around 200. I could be wrong; others would need to clarify that.

All in all, I believe backstabbing was intended to be difficult in this game, finding shadows out of sight or using valuable items (although carrying invisibility potions is viable, if I'm honest) to hide yourself is necessary, since health doesn't carry on increasing the way it would in 3e... Backstabbing with a high level Katana could very nearly result in insta-gibs etc, so that's why it's made more difficult. Rogues aren't really capable of going toe-to-toe like clerics or warriors until they get some nice gear; until then you're going to be clever with them.

[zorx_again]

First thing to do is picking up the right target - usually mages or other casters, many of them can be killed right away with a successful backstab hit and so give your party great advantage. If you didn't know the backstabbing character need to be behind it's target to some point, I'd say around 180 degrees. The best moment for the backstab attack was before the battle, in my experience, while during the battle it depends on the strength of your foes. Any type of speed boost (through item or spell) will not make running out-hiding in shadows-running back very much time consuming at all though it will require more micromanagement but that is important for tactical combat in BG anyway.

There are some very well written guides which you could check for the details: www.gamefaqs.com/pc/470765-baldurs-gate-ii-throne-of-bhaal/faqs/27550

[Slyx]

When you are hidden, via Hide in Shadows, or Invisibility, etc. (though not the cleric spell Sanctuary), you gain a +4 bonus to your THAC0, therefore making a backstab more likely to land.

If you're about to face a group of enemies, and you recognize one of them as a mage, or perhaps a priest/cleric, it's best to go after them first, especially the mage. Very often the mage will go down to a single backstab, often in a delightful spray of chunky giblets =)

A wealth of useful Thief information can be found via the link zorx_again provided above.

Modifié par Slyx, 22 août 2010 - 12:57 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Hide in Shadows and Move Silently are not capped at 100 or 200, but as with all thief skills, you should under no circumstances bring them to above 255 (and if you get a Dex boost that brings your skills over the border, well, sucks to be you). The reason is that the computer only looks at the first 8 digits (one byte), and that makes 256 look exactly like 0 (and 257 like 1 and so on).

Backstabbing is best done with weapons that give you a high damage average. Since only the base damage is multiplied, neither your strength score nor additional elemental damage will be very useful (though they will still do their normal damage). Notable backstabbing weapons:

Staff of Striking +3, Shapechange: Golem, Staff of the Ram, Black Blade of Disaster. Staff of the Mages is not directly useful for the backstab (since it's not a thief weapon), but if you have UAI you can use it to go immediately invisible again, walk out of the room, equip your backstabbing weapon. hide in shadows, walk back in and do some more damage.

Something possibly very interesting to note is that Hide in Shadows does not check whether there are enemies able to see you. What it does check is whether there are enemies in your range of sight (whether they are invisible to you or not). That means, if you are blinded, you can hide in shadows almost without any problems at all. (that makes the mod character Valen more useful than she should be, but she was overpowered anyway, so who cares?)

If you are more interested in thieving and backstabbing, check Rogue Rebalancing, which restores some of the rogue features of the game, for example the Shortsword of Backstabbing.

[resiak]

Heh, the guide saw right through me. "Backstab - I'm sure the average player has never bothered to use it, except once or twice with Valygar as a novelty."

Thanks for all the input!

To what skill level would I be able to increase skills safely without them re-wrapping back down to 0?

Modifié par resiak, 23 août 2010 - 02:19 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

A point dexterity can improve your skills by 5 points. If you are at 220 with Dex 18, Dex 25 would mean 255 (the last safe number).

Of course, putting 100 points into Set Traps, Find Traps, Detect Illusions and Pick Locks (and possibly some more into Pick Pockets) means that it will be some time before you get that high.

And then there is the other thing to consider: Simulacrums.

Since they only have 60% of your level, for a simulacrum to reliably lay traps you need 167 points in that skill (that is minus your racial, equipment and dexterity bonuses) and it is similarly difficult for them to hide in shadows.

[resiak]

And (an off-topic question), can you run into your own traps, or do you like skip over them?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

There is no danger of triggering your own traps.

[Chebby]

Just experimented by making a pure thief in ToB. With the armour and such I pushed my stealth skills up to around 240 (with items), careful not to go over the limit. You can't hide in plain sight, so if you're being followed, your stealth is screwed. One way I can see a backstabber enjoying her/himself is by carrying invisibility potions, because constantly running in and out can be a chore. That being said, you certainly don't need to keep stealthing in combat. Scout ahead with anybody who *can* backstab, send the warriors/clerics/multiclassed warriors in after having gibbed as many casters as possible and then, if needed, use a potion or an item. No form of illusion spells really aid natural stealth and the only way I knew for certain that I'd be able to utilize a natural hide was to make certain that all enemies were out of my characters sphere of vision/fog of war. In theory, stealth users would have a blast if they paired boots of speed with a haste spell, which actually makes me think more kindly of Thief/Mage, where improved haste is concerned.

Modifié par Chebby, 23 août 2010 - 02:25 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

The level 2 spell Blindness lasts for 10 turns (according to the manual). You could save your game before a battle and then reload until your thief fails his save against a casting of that from your mage. Another option might be PW: Blind (which does not allow for a saving throw but lasts only 6 rounds).

[Slyx]

The only problem with that is blindness lowers your THAC0 by TEN, regardless of spell description. Your THAC0 at higher levels should still be high enough most likely, but still, that's pretty yucky.



That's also a super cheesy tactic anyway IMO. Taking advantage of a game exploit. It's not supposed to work that way, but it does.



Boots of speed, run around a corner, an object, or run through a doorway and turn immediately after you get through the door then hide. As long as you don't have direct line of sight, you'll become hidden. This isn't even that cheesy IMO. It's RP'ng a thief. Get someone to chase you, and vanish just around a corner where the naive NPC thought you were, and BAM hit them from behind. Boots of speed is fast enough for just about any NPC I've yet encountered (farthest I've ever gotten is to the part in spellhold where you have to sacrifice a stat point).