747 réponses à ce sujet

[T.Attwood]

@Spartanburger. (Nice quote from "I, Robot" there! That did make me think when I saw that movie too).

I have spent many moments considering whether the Geth (or machines in general) could actually be 'self aware' or whether it is simply a side effect of the way neural networks function, and their apparent 'self awareness' is simply an illusion. Consider this example: If you give a machine huge amounts of processing power, memory, and the most complex AI possible, i don't think it would ever 'wake up'. This is because when you get down to the most fundamental level of what a computer is, it will still be executing one instruction after another, even if it was able to modify its own code. So, I believe it will always be a "machine". There is a moral question in Mass Effect, which is, "is it right for the Quarians to wipe out the Geth". As the Geth are not (as organics are) truely sentient, I see it as being no different to shooting a bullet into your PC. However, should we purely base our decision on whether to exterminate a species, only on 'our' concept of what is "alive", when we cannot define what life, or self awareness is, ourselves?

To add some context, I think Legion is a great character. That moment when he is switched on aboard the Normandy and he began talking, is awesome!
    This conflict between the Quarians and the Geth has raised some interesting moral and ethical concepts about what we as organics regard as life-forms (which must be preserved) or can be used and treated as slaves to support out needs.

Modifié par T.Attwood, 02 juillet 2011 - 06:57 .

[Spartanburger]

T.Attwood wrote...
If you give a machine huge amounts of processing power, memory, and the most complex AI possible, i don't think it would ever 'wake up'.

That's true. It wouldn't unless the 'software' itself was advanced enough. An there is another thing to consider with hardware.

With standard hardware, everything is eather a 'yes' or a 'no'. 0s and 1s. With the standard ME A.I. the hardware of a quantum blue box (I think) is required for a traditional A.I. to function. In my eyes, a Quantum blue box is the equivalen to a quantum computer. A quantum computer doesn't think in bits like 0s and 1s. It thinks in "qbits," 1s, 2s, 3s, 4s, 5s, 6s, 7s, 8s, and 9s, allowing for a hugely greater performance. (Note: I read this about Q-computers a long time ago, so I may be wrong on this).
That explains a standard A.I., but the Geth are not neccisarily A.I. They are V.I. programs that are linked together. It is possible that the sheer number of programs acting together can act like a q-computer, but that would require larger and more powerful hardware, hence the dyson sphere the geth are building.

A program, or set of program stops being a simple machine in my eyes when it is able to self determinate. Instead of simply receiving and following commands, it is able to generate commands for itself and be able to choose not to follow other orders.

I would laugh if in ME3 the geth won't cooperate and Tali or Xen simply says: "Sudo fight the reapers and make peace with organics." and that was that.

[T.Attwood]

@Spartanburger. Ah yes, I had considered quantum computing, and whether that is the key to the difference between a machine, and something that is capable of independent thought. Regarding your comment about the "dyson sphere" that the Geth are building made me think of something and the way the Geth function... Imagine each individual Geth as a human braincell. Collectively, they join together to formulate a concensus, and decide on what to do. That sounds very similar to the human brain, which is a collection of braincells communicating with each other to formulate a consensus, a thought and an action. Sometimes I wonder if, since the advent of the internet, whether our 'planet' is waking up. Consider each human as a braincell, communicating with each other through the internet, formulating ideas and a consensus. The similarities with the Geth are... frightening! It makes you wonder whether we, as individual humans are individual at all, but part of a larger 'system'. Expand that further, where you have humans talking with other species across other planets in the galaxy, formulating ideas and a consensus. This system of 'individual cells' communicating with each other for a greater good seems to be everywhere, on a galactic scale! It is an interesting concept when trying to define what life is.

[Spartanburger]

@T.Attwood:

Reading your post while listening to the Halo 3 music played at the E3 reveal trailer is beyond epic.

And I couldn't agree more. I'd like to think that the planet is waking up. I estimate that within a few generations we'll start seeing something like this as more and more 'connected' people reach levels of power within the world.

[T.Attwood]

Spartanburger wrote...

@T.Attwood:

Reading your post while listening to the Halo 3 music played at the E3 reveal trailer is beyond epic.

And I couldn't agree more. I'd like to think that the planet is waking up. I estimate that within a few generations we'll start seeing something like this as more and more 'connected' people reach levels of power within the world.

Yes, when you look around, the level of advancement that we as a species are achieving seems to be increasing at an exponential scale. I can see now that the thing that was holding the world back was essentially, the speed of communication. Now, we are seeing idea's being debated and refined on a vast scale, and not limited to our local community, like the time prior to mobile phones and the internet. I think I now understand why, BioWare provide these forums and made the decision to connect with their fanbase in this way. They have created a resource library of idea's which is constantly evolving and improving through reasoned debate, analysis, which tend towards a consensus over time.
    The more I think about this, the more I see a similarity between human society and the Geth, i.e. communicating with each other, solving problems and disseminating the solutions throughout society via a hub (i.e. the internet). I think that in the future, our progress will actually be limited by the fact that we are organic, because we evolve physically at such a slow pace. In order to bridge that gap, maybe we will end up implanting technology within our bodies, like the Quarians. Additionally, consider the increase in human allergies over recent years. Future generations may end up having to wear environment suits, as our bodies cannot evolve fast enough to keep up with how we are changing our environment, (the cause of the allergies). Sometimes I wonder if the Quarians are a vision of our future selves...!

Modifié par T.Attwood, 03 juillet 2011 - 12:08 .

[DragonRacer]

*waves* Hi, people!

Totally new to the ME fandom here... actually ended up getting ME2 after Bioware took over my soul (and wallet) via DA:O and DA2.  

Just wanted to ask a question regarding our favorite platform (Why, oh why, was the most interesting squadmate left until the final frickin' hour of the game???):

How much of the game can I leave un-done and can complete AFTER the suicide mission, so that I can have optimum Legion time without sacrificing my crew? I went and completed everything first playthrough -- all side missions, all random quests that come from planet scanning, all DLC that I have so far - which is Overlord and Shadow Broker... haven't gotten Arrival yet -- so that meant I pretty much only had Legion's loyalty mission, then off to the Omega 4 relay.

This time around, I'd like to do the bare minimum required to successfully complete the suicide mission (plus loyalty missions, so I don't doom all my squadmates). That way, I can take Legion around and do more stuff with him. So, what can be put off until after SM? I mostly fear that there might be some sidequests that HAVE to be done pre-SM or they disappear (kinda like how you had to do all sidequests that involved Redcliffe in any way if you were trying to get optimum Secret Companion time in DA:O).

Is there a consensus on this? 

[ElectricZ]

Spartanburger wrote...

A program, or set of program stops being a simple machine in my eyes when it is able to self determinate. Instead of simply receiving and following commands, it is able to generate commands for itself and be able to choose not to follow other orders.

Coming into this a bit late, but the geth are capable of self-determination. That's exactly what brought about the schism between the heretics and the true geth: some geth wanted to aid Sovereign so the Old Machines would help them "ascend." The majority did not, believing it was better to advance on their own. However, the true geth let the heretics go peacefully, because it would be wrong to force them to accept their own beliefs... which shows not just the ability for self determination, but the belief that other entities have the same right, even amongst their own kind.

[WashclothRepairMan]

Legion and Zaeed: best new teammates.

They must be in ME3.

[wilhelm Screamer]

Legion makes the best team mate with Grunt, because their loyalty powers make them awesome tanks, and their high power weapons make them awesome at any range.

[T.Attwood]

DragonRacer wrote...

*waves* Hi, people!

Totally new to the ME fandom here... actually ended up getting ME2 after Bioware took over my soul (and wallet) via DA:O and DA2.  

Just wanted to ask a question regarding our favorite platform (Why, oh why, was the most interesting squadmate left until the final frickin' hour of the game???):

How much of the game can I leave un-done and can complete AFTER the suicide mission, so that I can have optimum Legion time without sacrificing my crew? I went and completed everything first playthrough -- all side missions, all random quests that come from planet scanning, all DLC that I have so far - which is Overlord and Shadow Broker... haven't gotten Arrival yet -- so that meant I pretty much only had Legion's loyalty mission, then off to the Omega 4 relay.

This time around, I'd like to do the bare minimum required to successfully complete the suicide mission (plus loyalty missions, so I don't doom all my squadmates). That way, I can take Legion around and do more stuff with him. So, what can be put off until after SM? I mostly fear that there might be some sidequests that HAVE to be done pre-SM or they disappear (kinda like how you had to do all sidequests that involved Redcliffe in any way if you were trying to get optimum Secret Companion time in DA:O).

Is there a consensus on this? 

Hi DragonRacer,
You may find this useful....
http://social.biowar...5/index/2653056
I assume you want as many of your crew to survive as possible? This info will explain what you must do to keep your squadmates alive (essentially, make sure they are all loyal). As soon as you open the Omega relay (without going through it), unless you go through it immediately, some of your crew will die (i.e. snip...


                                                                             The Crew (As a whole)

                      How many missions did you complete between opening the Relay and going through it?

*0 ------> All of the Crew survives
*1 to 3 ---------> Half the Crew dies
* Over 3 --------> Entire Crew dies except Dr. Chakwas

...snip)

As for the side missions, I'm not sure, as I dont have any information on that. I 'guess' as long as they aren't directly involved for a character (i.e. to make them loyal), then you should be able to leave them until after completion.

[CroGamer002]

Why are Legion and Mordin, everyone's favorite, are rarely discussed in support thread?

[Rusty Pabst]

A couple of my favorite Legion images:




http://masseffectscr...orites-part-11/

[Rusty Pabst]

Another Legion pic:



http://masseffectscr...orites-part-13/

[Rusty Pabst]

And another pic:



http://masseffectscr...orites-part-15/

[CroGamer002]

MOAR!

[Rusty Pabst]

And another:



http://masseffectscr...orites-part-16/

[CroGamer002]

Really good.

[Jafroboy]

 Um, I have a question, in fact I signed up to ask it; I just got Legion, (I'm on my first playthrough of mass effect 2) and - holy **** - he comes out with;

"Actually most geth are peaceful, only a small portion attacked with Seren, ect." 

And I'm like; um... geh? This is... surely, big BIG news? I should be telling EVERYONE? Tali should be wetting her pants? But Tali just sits around in engineering refusing to talk to a real live, talking, OMFG actually friendly geth, after one argument, missing out on... THE most important Quarian find since the dawn war... EVER? On the SAME ship!?

I tell Counciller Anderson, and hes like;
"Oh our main (Yes I know reapers, but Id say ultimate for them, geth are the everyday soldiers) enemy is both WAY stronger than we thought, AND, may not in fact be our enemy? AND theres one standing right behind me? Well thats nice Shepard, but I really have some parking fines to process." 

Legion tells me that the Geth dont even occupy the Quarian homeworld, and dont want war with the Quarians, and I go;

"Good God! The Quarians have to know about this! I cant belive I was actually right about trying to persuade them out of war with the Geth back at Tali's trial!"
(Lets not even go into the Quarians allowing Legion onboard during Tali's TREASON trial for bringing geth PARTS!)
But no:
"A possible end to the war, and the return of the Quarian Homeworld, the entire massive debate of the Quarian lives, and Tali's trial? Sorry, we're not interested in that, you cant land"

So, my question is, um, WTF? Why cant I tell anyone Legion's amazing news? Why does no-one care I'm walking around with a Geth? Why doesn't Tali take advantage of this never before seen oppertunity?

Granted Legion could be lying, but Shepard doesnt act like he disbelives him, except about the "hole" of course.

I thought since you guys were the main ones into Legion (he is pretty cool) you would know best, so thanks for those who managed to bear with me, hope you can answer!


P.S. I rewrote the Geth, but they have neither "Withdrawn to reconsider" nor become friendly, whats going on?

[ElectricZ]

Jafroboy wrote...

So, my question is, um, WTF? Why cant I tell anyone Legion's amazing news? Why does no-one care I'm walking around with a Geth? Why doesn't Tali take advantage of this never before seen oppertunity?

The only reason I can really think of is that it would detract from the main plot of pursuing the collectors. Except for Tali, Legion and Mordin, the other loyalty missions were all personal in nature and had no real effect outside of the lives of your crew. You were simply helping your team let go of distractions so they could focus on the task of stopping the collectors.

Mordin's LM will have some pretty heavy impact on galactic politics and intraspecies relations, but it is effectively kept quiet regardless of which path you choose. Again, the main goal is to free up Mordin's mind and conscience so he can concentrate on the mission.

Tali and Legion on the other hand are different. Their respective peoples have been at war for centuries, have never tried to negotiate, and one of the parties is dying a long slow lingering death in space, with a suicide run on their homeworld being touted as one of their best options. Legion shows up and tells Shepard as far as the geth are concerned the war is over, and they just want to be left alone.

Like you, I wondered where the heck the "You and Tali need to talk" dialogue option was when Tali was getting ready to blast Legion in the AI Core. Instead, you could side with one, side with the other, or get them both to go back to their corners and then... nothing.

Blame it on trying to introduce 12 main characters each with their own plot lines. Tali and Legion making peace would have been a huge undertaking as far as dialogue and outcome. Considering some people don't care for Tali or Legion, and they were essentially subplots anyway, BioWare probably decided to just skim the surface and leave the outcome for ME3.

I wasn't terribly satisfied with that, either. Loved the game, but wish it could have delved deeper because the geth/quarian conflict is one of my favorite stories in the game. I wrote a fic, Tomorrow's Dawn, specifically because I wanted to work out how Legion and Tali might be able to reconcile. Have a look and let me know what you think.

[Jafroboy]

Yeah, sigh... I guess its just got to come down to a "Its just a game" reason... double sigh.

[CroGamer002]

LEGION IS CONFIRMED AS SQUADMATE!!!

[genobis]

Hot one!

garrettartlair.blogspot.com/2011/09/mass-effect-legion.html

Modifié par genobis, 21 septembre 2011 - 06:20 .

[Brohammed]

T.Attwood wrote...

I have spent many moments considering whether the Geth (or machines in general) could actually be 'self aware' or whether it is simply a side effect of the way neural networks function, and their apparent 'self awareness' is simply an illusion. Consider this example: If you give a machine huge amounts of processing power, memory, and the most complex AI possible, i don't think it would ever 'wake up'. This is because when you get down to the most fundamental level of what a computer is, it will still be executing one instruction after another, even if it was able to modify its own code. So, I believe it will always be a "machine". 

The very same things could be said about a human brain.