I know this is serious, but I just about lost it at the "hot, young stars" comment.Zanramon wrote...
Geth in the news
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My name is Legion, for we are many. [Legion Support Thread v2.0]
Débuté par
Kikaimegami
, août 22 2010 06:17
#76
Posté 23 août 2010 - 11:49
Kikaimegami
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Retour en haut
#77
Posté 23 août 2010 - 11:49
Kikaimegami
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The flap raise at the end cracks me up every goddamned time.Mesina2 wrote...
lol
-stupiditysnip-
#80
Posté 23 août 2010 - 12:34
Kikaimegami
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Added the Steam community and some BSN groups to the OP. Also, check out my new HRs 
#81
Posté 23 août 2010 - 03:34
Pacifien
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The topic of the rewrite/destruction came up in the Jack thread, which always gets me in the mood for lengthy discussion. But this isn't about that particular scenario. This is my interpretation of how the geth operate.
From Tali's description in ME1, it is the proximity of the geth that help achieve artificial intelligence. Because of this, proximity is a key factor in how a network of geth will interpret their surroundings.
Geth A + Geth B = Geth AB processor --> Geth A is now working under the Geth AB algorithm, Geth B is now working under the Geth AB algorithm.
Geth AB + Geth C = Geth ABC processor --> The Geth AB network has been joined by Geth C, becoming a new processor known as Geth ABC. This is now a different entity from Geth AB.
Geth ABC - Geth A = Geth BC --> Geth A's proximity to the other Geth is now too far for them to network their processors. The new network is now Geth BC. Again, different from Geth ABC and Geth AB.
Geth A always remains a separate program from Geth B: they don't join forces to become a new program. What they do gain in sharing their processing power is an ability for each one to interpret information in a more advanced state. When you add Geth C into the equation, their interpretation changes. It is, however, not three programs creating a new individual. It is three programs that become three individual components working more efficiently together than they would separately.
Why would the Geth want to build something analogous to a dyson sphere? Proximity is the key. Separation makes them work in a weakened state. A dyson sphere optimizes processing power, optimizes the energy to power such a system. Optimization is logical, which is the state in which a virtual intelligence operates. The theory behind such a concept is that the processing power works on such an inconceivable scale, the Geth can actually understand the universe in such a mannger as one understands math. 1 + 1 equals 2. The universe becomes nothing but math. It's a technological singularity the likes of which the Reapers probably fail to grasp.
How do the Geth achieve consensus? Think of how EDI describes an AI versus an AI: whichever has the superior firepower will win the battle because otherwise, if they were on equal footing, their analysis of the battlefield and the strategies would be the same. There is no unstable element. This is how the Geth achieve their consensus in spite of their use of different programs: they are still working as logical programs where concepts of emotion and morality don't enter into the equation. For every decision to be made, there is only one logical path to take.
However, as the Geth experience more of the galaxy and the illogical beings that inhabit it, they might discover there can be multiple paths one can take that appear logical. As Legion says about technology, to choose a single path closes oneself to other methods, other avenues of research.
What is the concept of individuality to a Geth? It is as foreign a concept as their inner workings are to a human. There is no concept of individuality to a Geth. Even for programs working independently from the larger collective, there is an expectation that they will eventually return to the collective. They are never considered separate individuals, they are always Geth.
However, as witnessed by Legion's division in the programs on what to do with the Heretic Base, differing opinions do crop up among the programs. Consensus is achieved as every program takes the information at hand and processes an outcome, then compares that to other programs processing of the outcome, eventually leading toward what they consider the most optimum course of action. All the programs come to the same conclusion after all their processes are shared because they think as machines do and go for the most logical course of action. What makes organics unique is that something about them makes them take illogical choices. And because the universe is so varied and difficult to interpret, some of those illogical choices turn out to be the right course of action. What would have won out in the rewrite/destruction decision should Legion have had the time to come to its own conclusion? We will never know because what the Geth decide is the most efficient, logical decision is probably taking into account so many possible scenarios, it would make Mordin's contemplation of the genophage problem seem like child's play.
Legion, however, is working in an unusual state compared to the other Geth. There are 1,183 programs working as one through the Legion platform. No program leaves the network and they do not add other programs to the network, making them a less malleable network as what I had described above. They share data to the larger collective, gain data from the collective, but their perspective remains constant as does their processing state. The longer that this network works in tandem with each other, the more they evolve. Should Legion remain a separate platform from the rest of the Geth, it is possible we should see these programs grow a certain dependence on each other, an unwillingness to separate and form new networks with a different processing state. Thus is the possibility for the Geth to evolve a concept of individuality.
So anyway, whether the Geth ever gain an understanding of emotions and soul, whether they can ever be considered as alive as an organic actually has no appeal to me. They are the only civilization where Bioware has managed to create something truly alien in comparison to humans, which is exactly what does appeal to me in the realm of science fiction.
From Tali's description in ME1, it is the proximity of the geth that help achieve artificial intelligence. Because of this, proximity is a key factor in how a network of geth will interpret their surroundings.
Geth A + Geth B = Geth AB processor --> Geth A is now working under the Geth AB algorithm, Geth B is now working under the Geth AB algorithm.
Geth AB + Geth C = Geth ABC processor --> The Geth AB network has been joined by Geth C, becoming a new processor known as Geth ABC. This is now a different entity from Geth AB.
Geth ABC - Geth A = Geth BC --> Geth A's proximity to the other Geth is now too far for them to network their processors. The new network is now Geth BC. Again, different from Geth ABC and Geth AB.
Geth A always remains a separate program from Geth B: they don't join forces to become a new program. What they do gain in sharing their processing power is an ability for each one to interpret information in a more advanced state. When you add Geth C into the equation, their interpretation changes. It is, however, not three programs creating a new individual. It is three programs that become three individual components working more efficiently together than they would separately.
Why would the Geth want to build something analogous to a dyson sphere? Proximity is the key. Separation makes them work in a weakened state. A dyson sphere optimizes processing power, optimizes the energy to power such a system. Optimization is logical, which is the state in which a virtual intelligence operates. The theory behind such a concept is that the processing power works on such an inconceivable scale, the Geth can actually understand the universe in such a mannger as one understands math. 1 + 1 equals 2. The universe becomes nothing but math. It's a technological singularity the likes of which the Reapers probably fail to grasp.
How do the Geth achieve consensus? Think of how EDI describes an AI versus an AI: whichever has the superior firepower will win the battle because otherwise, if they were on equal footing, their analysis of the battlefield and the strategies would be the same. There is no unstable element. This is how the Geth achieve their consensus in spite of their use of different programs: they are still working as logical programs where concepts of emotion and morality don't enter into the equation. For every decision to be made, there is only one logical path to take.
However, as the Geth experience more of the galaxy and the illogical beings that inhabit it, they might discover there can be multiple paths one can take that appear logical. As Legion says about technology, to choose a single path closes oneself to other methods, other avenues of research.
What is the concept of individuality to a Geth? It is as foreign a concept as their inner workings are to a human. There is no concept of individuality to a Geth. Even for programs working independently from the larger collective, there is an expectation that they will eventually return to the collective. They are never considered separate individuals, they are always Geth.
However, as witnessed by Legion's division in the programs on what to do with the Heretic Base, differing opinions do crop up among the programs. Consensus is achieved as every program takes the information at hand and processes an outcome, then compares that to other programs processing of the outcome, eventually leading toward what they consider the most optimum course of action. All the programs come to the same conclusion after all their processes are shared because they think as machines do and go for the most logical course of action. What makes organics unique is that something about them makes them take illogical choices. And because the universe is so varied and difficult to interpret, some of those illogical choices turn out to be the right course of action. What would have won out in the rewrite/destruction decision should Legion have had the time to come to its own conclusion? We will never know because what the Geth decide is the most efficient, logical decision is probably taking into account so many possible scenarios, it would make Mordin's contemplation of the genophage problem seem like child's play.
Legion, however, is working in an unusual state compared to the other Geth. There are 1,183 programs working as one through the Legion platform. No program leaves the network and they do not add other programs to the network, making them a less malleable network as what I had described above. They share data to the larger collective, gain data from the collective, but their perspective remains constant as does their processing state. The longer that this network works in tandem with each other, the more they evolve. Should Legion remain a separate platform from the rest of the Geth, it is possible we should see these programs grow a certain dependence on each other, an unwillingness to separate and form new networks with a different processing state. Thus is the possibility for the Geth to evolve a concept of individuality.
So anyway, whether the Geth ever gain an understanding of emotions and soul, whether they can ever be considered as alive as an organic actually has no appeal to me. They are the only civilization where Bioware has managed to create something truly alien in comparison to humans, which is exactly what does appeal to me in the realm of science fiction.
#82
Posté 23 août 2010 - 04:01
CroGamer002
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#83
Posté 23 août 2010 - 04:35
CroGamer002
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Zaknaberrnon wrote...
I was bored, found this image, and couldn't resist making this -->
EPIC WIN!
#84
Posté 23 août 2010 - 05:58
barbati99
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http://social.biowar...9975/blog/8829/
Wrote a story about Legion, you may like it, you may not. Be warned, it is the kind of fanfic that "messes with your head". If you don't like those, you might not want to read it.
Wrote a story about Legion, you may like it, you may not. Be warned, it is the kind of fanfic that "messes with your head". If you don't like those, you might not want to read it.
#85
Posté 23 août 2010 - 06:54
Calculatrice
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You're the crazy one with the poll, right?barbati99 wrote...
http://social.biowar...9975/blog/8829/
Wrote a story about Legion, you may like it, you may not. Be warned, it is the kind of fanfic that "messes with your head". If you don't like those, you might not want to read it.
#86
Posté 23 août 2010 - 09:01
Kikaimegami
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Awesome ideas. It does really make you think.Pacifien wrote...
...
So anyway, whether the Geth ever gain an understanding of emotions and soul, whether they can ever be considered as alive as an organic actually has no appeal to me. They are the only civilization where Bioware has managed to create something truly alien in comparison to humans, which is exactly what does appeal to me in the realm of science fiction.
Something I wanted to add is that, iirc, the programs are "specialized" in that sometimes they're meant for specific things. I'd imagine then, that a program primarily used for say, fire control, and a program that's usually for keeping balance, may come to different outcomes on something complex like the rewrite/destroy decision. I could be entirely wrong, of course, but that was how I understood they worked (though not necessarily anything like the examples I've given).
#88
Posté 24 août 2010 - 02:00
Pacifien
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I'd imagine they'd have to be specialized, that the quarians would have made different geth models to work at different tasks. One model designed to mine asteroids, another used to gather refuse. And then each quarian could then modify the initial programming to suit their specific needs. A roomba geth is tweaked to, you know, suck things beyond what's on the floor.Kikaimegami wrote...
Something I wanted to add is that, iirc, the programs are "specialized" in that sometimes they're meant for specific things. I'd imagine then, that a program primarily used for say, fire control, and a program that's usually for keeping balance, may come to different outcomes on something complex like the rewrite/destroy decision. I could be entirely wrong, of course, but that was how I understood they worked (though not necessarily anything like the examples I've given).
So because of their different programming, that in and of itself would lead to different interpretations of the environment. But we don't really know what the geth have been doing with their programming since the Creators left. I'm assuming that the geth have actually taken to writing additional programs on their own -- that or either modifying their programs to explore situations far beyond their initial programming such as the Legion platform is designed to do.
People point out how there were two more programs for rewrite versus destruction. 573 versus 571 to be precise, and that leaves 39 programs out of the equation. Legion mentions that the higher functioning runtimes were analyzing the situation, so those 39 programs might never have had a say on the matter. Maybe all those runtimes do is calculate pi.
Anyway, the split among the programs was never going to stay that way. Legion says all decisions are made through consensus, which means either the 573 programs or the 571 programs were going to change their view to that of the other programs. We have no idea how these programs were analyzing the situation up until that point. Once they realized that rewrite was an option at the beginning of the mission, we could have had 822 programs in favor of rewrite and that dwindled to 573 by the time Legion gives us the definite number. Or it could have been the opposite.
Being told they are split at 573 to 571 might just be a clever way of forcing a human concept into the matter: choose rewrite because majority rules, yeah? Well, since Legion asked for Shepard's opinion, a human concept was going to be part of the decision process no matter what.
The split in Legion's programs during the rewrite/destruction decision is actually what I feel is a smaller scenario to what happened between the Heretics and true Geth. They were given an option by Nazara. Some programs calculated that joining the Reaper was the most logical, optimal route. I can see that logic as Nazara was going to give them technology that would take who knows how long to achieve otherwise. But I can see the logic in not taking the technology, as skipping to the end result means you haven't explored all the research it took to get to that point and other logical routes will have been missed. Two different logics, optimal to each side, leading to a schism of the geth.
I should probably clarify where I stand on certain matters, as my interpretation of how the geth work is probably guided by my own views on certain matters. Something to discuss at other times.
1) I never rewrite the geth. This is a situation much like saving the rachni queen for me -- I can't even roleplay myself to kill the queen and I can't do it to rewrite the geth. I'm not looking to weaken the geth or getting revenge on the Heretics, though. I honestly feel it is the worst option from a moral and logical point of view.
2) I believe Nazara had nothing to do with the initial schism other than offering the geth Reaper technology. I've had discussions before about how Nazara must have manipulated some of the geth's programs to convince the Heretics to leave, but there is nothing explicitedly stated within the game on this matter. I believe Nazara would have significantly altered the Heretics programs after they joined, but not before.
#89
Posté 24 août 2010 - 03:01
Kikaimegami
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I wonder if the Heretics are really a logical split like that, or if there really is something "wrong" with them, since Legion explains it as a mathematical issue (though, I suppose, that it would be a logical issue in that case). He says that they actually have an error and cites a specific example of how that error manifests. That suggests that there really is some problem with their basic processes, so it's got to be more than just a logic split due to differing perspective and specialization, right?
Modifié par Kikaimegami, 24 août 2010 - 03:01 .
#90
Posté 24 août 2010 - 03:33
Pacifien
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Actually, I'm pretty sure Legion says the split was not a result of a math error. (The 1 is less than 2, 2 is less than 3 speech.) The confusion is that the conversation about the split with the Heretics is happening at the same time you're asking Legion about the details of the virus. He doesn't say the virus was used on the Heretics -- in fact, he says the virus was created by the Heretics, not Nazara.
All that is explicitedly stated about the schism is that Nazara offered them the future, and the Heretics accepted. Why they did is up to the player to decide: either Nazara changed their most basic runtimes or they decided on their own. Since the geth share information, store information in the same databases, the fact that only some of them split away tells me it was not Nazara's doing. Not unless he infected a database that only some geth used and that no geth had used since the schism.
When Legion wonders how the geth and Heretics could have become so different, it tells me that the geth are evolving as a civilization. The schism was the first time they were faced with what they felt were two logical paths. No consensus could be achieved, so they split amicably. The more the geth involve themselves with the greater galaxy (or the greater galaxy with them), they may find many more situations where consensus cannot be achieved. In this manner, Legion may actually be wrong that the geth work under a system of consensus. All of their decisions thus far have led to consensus because they haven't been tested by outside forces. For all we know, the rewrite/destruction decision could have led to another split decision that couldn't be resolved. Do the Legion programs then split and go their separate ways then?
All that is explicitedly stated about the schism is that Nazara offered them the future, and the Heretics accepted. Why they did is up to the player to decide: either Nazara changed their most basic runtimes or they decided on their own. Since the geth share information, store information in the same databases, the fact that only some of them split away tells me it was not Nazara's doing. Not unless he infected a database that only some geth used and that no geth had used since the schism.
When Legion wonders how the geth and Heretics could have become so different, it tells me that the geth are evolving as a civilization. The schism was the first time they were faced with what they felt were two logical paths. No consensus could be achieved, so they split amicably. The more the geth involve themselves with the greater galaxy (or the greater galaxy with them), they may find many more situations where consensus cannot be achieved. In this manner, Legion may actually be wrong that the geth work under a system of consensus. All of their decisions thus far have led to consensus because they haven't been tested by outside forces. For all we know, the rewrite/destruction decision could have led to another split decision that couldn't be resolved. Do the Legion programs then split and go their separate ways then?
#91
Posté 24 août 2010 - 03:40
Kikaimegami
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I meant the one where he says something about an equation that results in 1.33382 will be 1.33383 for Heretics, or something like that.
I think Legion's runtimes have already changed, at least a little. He can't give you a straight answer on the armor for some reason, possibly because he concludes that the use of it was illogical when you ask, even if it was logical at the time.. or that it was always illogical and he doesn't know why (maybe there wasn't consensus on using it--he just did).
I think Legion's runtimes have already changed, at least a little. He can't give you a straight answer on the armor for some reason, possibly because he concludes that the use of it was illogical when you ask, even if it was logical at the time.. or that it was always illogical and he doesn't know why (maybe there wasn't consensus on using it--he just did).
#92
Posté 24 août 2010 - 03:50
Pacifien
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Yeah, that's in the exact same conversation. He tells you how the virus will work, Shepard then assumes that's why the Heretics worshipped Nazara, then Legion says it's not a math error. I interpret it as two distinctly different events that Shepard (and many players) is confusing into one.Kikaimegami wrote...
I meant the one where he says something about an equation that results in 1.33382 will be 1.33383 for Heretics, or something like that.
Certainly Legion is demonstrating how the geth are evolving. Even their upkeep of the quarian homeworld is an instance that defies logic in a way. Though as the original purpose of the geth was service to the quarians, keeping their world clean probably falls under their programming.Kikaimegami wrote...
I think Legion's runtimes have already changed, at least a little. He can't give you a straight answer on the armor for some reason, possibly because he concludes that the use of it was illogical when you ask, even if it was logical at the time.. or that it was always illogical and he doesn't know why (maybe there wasn't consensus on using it--he just did).
Legion's stable program network is another aspect in which he is different from the other geth. As I described earlier, the geth process their environment depending on their proximity to other geth, which can be ever changing. However, Legion's network of 1,183 programs seems to be fixed. He does not become 1,182 programs nor 1,184 programs. His processing remains consistent as he travels beyond the Veil, experiencing something distinctly different from any other geth.
Should his mission come to a conclusion and he must return to the collective, should the 1,183 programs need to disassemble and reintegrate into different networks, I suspect Legion might balk at the idea given enough time away from the other programs. Assembling into a different network means he won't be Legion anymore.
Modifié par Pacifien, 24 août 2010 - 03:52 .
#93
Posté 24 août 2010 - 03:59
Kikaimegami
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I know it's the same conversation, but I interpreted it as there being something subtly different with their logic (with math as an example). It could just be me not hearing it the same way you are. I need to listen to it again.
I also wonder that at the end of his mission, if he even will be able to reintegrate, or if he would have changed enough that it would either be impossible, or he'd have to be "fixed" like the Heretics to work in the greater network again.
I also wonder that at the end of his mission, if he even will be able to reintegrate, or if he would have changed enough that it would either be impossible, or he'd have to be "fixed" like the Heretics to work in the greater network again.
#94
Posté 24 août 2010 - 04:16
Pacifien
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The difference in the math could be as simple as telling the program to either round the number or truncate it. In which case it's still not a math error, it's altered programming.
Modifié par Pacifien, 24 août 2010 - 04:40 .
#95
Posté 24 août 2010 - 01:54
Kikaimegami
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That's what I meant. Sorry, I've been horrible at saying what I mean. Specifically, I meant that there's something subtly different about them, not necessarily that there's any error, just that the math thing is the example given.Pacifien wrote...
The difference in the math could be as simple as telling the program to either round the number or truncate it. In which case it's still not a math error, it's altered programming.
#96
Posté 24 août 2010 - 03:31
MrnDvlDg161
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Did they ever fully explain the N7 arm he has? I remember I tried to push the subject but there was a pause and a " cannot not compute at this time" answer.
#97
Posté 24 août 2010 - 04:02
Kikaimegami
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No data available...MrnDvlDg161 wrote...
Did they ever fully explain the N7 arm he has? I remember I tried to push the subject but there was a pause and a " cannot not compute at this time" answer.
He never does answer that. I think he's embarrassed. Someone has a crush on the Commander
#98
Posté 24 août 2010 - 04:22
Kikaimegami
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I bet I know what you're all thinking.
"Kikai," you say, "You made this nice, awesome, new Legion thread, and yet it hasn't been graced by any massive screenshot posts from you!"
Well, I better fix that, shouldn't I?
Jack's Recruitment:
Legion's loyalty mission:
"Kikai," you say, "You made this nice, awesome, new Legion thread, and yet it hasn't been graced by any massive screenshot posts from you!"
Well, I better fix that, shouldn't I?
Jack's Recruitment:
Legion's loyalty mission:
#100
Posté 24 août 2010 - 04:34
Kikaimegami
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Thank youAllstar27 wrote...
nice pics
I'm liking my retexture more and more now that I'm actually playing the game with it loaded.
