132 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

AriesXX7 wrote...

@Zulu_DFA

I notice you accuse Anderson of treason quite a bit, when it comes to his actions/point of views against Cerberus

why?

they're not a government or a embodiment of humanity as a whole
so I'm just curious as to how you've reached that assesment, of him


by the way, as you may have noticed, or not, I haven't participated in the pro/anti-Cerberus debates
so this is a genuine question

Imagine: US have a problem with KKK, that "infiltrates" US government, military and so on. And Colin Powell comes to Vladimir Putin and says: "Look, Vladimir, could you please use some of your KGB and Spetsnaz guys to clean up our KKK problem? You see, I can't trust the FBI and the Marines..."

[Zulu_DFA]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Also, the Migrant Fleet repelled Cerberus... What does that say about Cerberus if the MF is the most inept organization?

Almost. The operation was going to be success, but the protagonist betrayed Cerberus in the last minute, for Kahlee "Sex-Bomb" Sanders. Kinda femme fatale ain't she?

[JGDD]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Also, the Migrant Fleet repelled Cerberus... What does that say about Cerberus if the MF is the most inept organization?

Almost. The operation was going to be success, but the protagonist betrayed Cerberus in the last minute, for Kahlee "Sex-Bomb" Sanders. Kinda femme fatale ain't she?

One thing at a time...the operation was not a success you say? Is that a confirmed failure you just admitted to? A simple yes or no will do.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Also, the Migrant Fleet repelled Cerberus... What does that say about Cerberus if the MF is the most inept organization?

Almost. The operation was going to be success, but the protagonist betrayed Cerberus in the last minute, for Kahlee "Sex-Bomb" Sanders. Kinda femme fatale ain't she?

He betrayed them so his daughter wouldn't be a lab rat like Jack or David Archer.  It really wasn't about Kahlee at all. She merely helped convince him at the last minute to make a decision he'd been contemplating on and off for the entire book. 

[Zulu_DFA]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Also, the Migrant Fleet repelled Cerberus... What does that say about Cerberus if the MF is the most inept organization?

Almost. The operation was going to be success, but the protagonist betrayed Cerberus in the last minute, for Kahlee "Sex-Bomb" Sanders. Kinda femme fatale ain't she?

One thing at a time...the operation was not a success you say? Is that a confirmed failure you just admitted to? A simple yes or no will do.

OK, I promise, I answer that right, after you admit, that Grayson is a traitor.

Didymos1120 wrote...
He betrayed them so his daughter wouldn't be a lab rat like Jack or David Archer.  It really wasn't about Kahlee at all. She merely helped convince him at the last minute to make a decision he'd been contemplating on and off for the entire book. 

It's classic tragedy, friggin Shakespeare: The inner fight "passion vs duty" in the protagonist. Passion wins and it destroys the protagonist. Drew has some sketchy to weak points on details, but in the main he got it right.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 août 2010 - 05:44 .

[JGDD]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Also, the Migrant Fleet repelled Cerberus... What does that say about Cerberus if the MF is the most inept organization?

Almost. The operation was going to be success, but the protagonist betrayed Cerberus in the last minute, for Kahlee "Sex-Bomb" Sanders. Kinda femme fatale ain't she?

One thing at a time...the operation was not a success you say? Is that a confirmed failure you just admitted to? A simple yes or no will do.

OK, I promise, I answer that right, after you admit, that Grayson is a traitor.

Not a problem. He failed as an agent and failed as a human. Pay up. 

[Zulu_DFA]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Also, the Migrant Fleet repelled Cerberus... What does that say about Cerberus if the MF is the most inept organization?

Almost. The operation was going to be success, but the protagonist betrayed Cerberus in the last minute, for Kahlee "Sex-Bomb" Sanders. Kinda femme fatale ain't she?

One thing at a time...the operation was not a success you say? Is that a confirmed failure you just admitted to? A simple yes or no will do.

OK, I promise, I answer that right, after you admit, that Grayson is a traitor.

Not a problem. He failed as an agent and failed as a human. Pay up. 

I never denied that some Cerberus projects and operations fail. And the attack on the Quarians is the one most evident example of failure.

[Arijharn]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
And most of those experiments failed because Cerberus couldn't control their own experiments, not because Shepard stepped in.

If I recall correctly, the containment fields that held those specimens only failed when Shephard turned them off (or was that when he shot them?)

[Mystranna Kelteel]

Arijharn wrote...
If I recall correctly, the containment fields that held those specimens only failed when Shephard turned them off (or was that when he shot them?)

You're referring specifically to the mission where you find Kahoku's body. That is but one experiment.

And even then, in ME2 Miranda will tell you the rachni experiment failed, and that mission was part of their rachni research. Don't forget all the other rachni trouble they had. Just because Shepard shot up one areas research bases doesn't mean she was responsible for the entire experiment failing. The rachni got away from Cerberus on their own and Shepard only cleaned up the mess.

[Skyblade012]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
If I recall correctly, the containment fields that held those specimens only failed when Shephard turned them off (or was that when he shot them?)

You're referring specifically to the mission where you find Kahoku's body. That is but one experiment.

And even then, in ME2 Miranda will tell you the rachni experiment failed, and that mission was part of their rachni research. Don't forget all the other rachni trouble they had. Just because Shepard shot up one areas research bases doesn't mean she was responsible for the entire experiment failing. The rachni got away from Cerberus on their own and Shepard only cleaned up the mess.

Yep.  The audio logs in a certain freighter confirm that the Rachni totally frelled over Cerberus on their own.  They escaped imprisonment and wound up shipping themselves to several new locations, prompting the suggestion to terminate the project.

"Screw the rachni, they're too smart."

[didymos1120]

Arijharn wrote...

If I recall correctly, the containment fields that held those specimens only failed when Shephard turned them off (or was that when he shot them?)

Yeah, and that only happened because Cerberus went and murdered some Alliance marines and then went after Kahoku, who subsequently disappeared after sending a panicked message to the Normandy, thereby quite effectively piquing Shep's interest.  Shepard was merely a proximate cause.  The FAIL is ultimately still all on Cerberus.

[snfonseka]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Books for games are usually crap.

Specially the "RETRIBUTION"..... because according to me that book is so black and white... according to the story of the book Cerberus is bad and others are good, that's it !!!!

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

If I recall correctly, the containment fields that held those specimens only failed when Shephard turned them off (or was that when he shot them?)

Yeah, and that only happened because Cerberus went and murdered some Alliance marines and then went after Kahoku, who subsequently disappeared after sending a panicked message to the Normandy, thereby quite effectively piquing Shep's interest.  Shepard was merely a proximate cause.  The FAIL is ultimately still all on Cerberus.

Don't forget, that "fail" is optional. That is if you complete the quests. So is this kiddie DLC Super Mario: Overlord.

[Arijharn]

Wouldn't it be awesome to play a game where Cerberus succeeds? Oh WAIT!

[Khel Burrem]

Cerberus did succeed... in bringing back Shepard. Who, in my playthrough, ultimately tells TIM to shove it, and blows the Collector base to tiny, tiny bits. Man, I love watching that thing explode.



So yeah, I call that success.

[Gibb_Garrus]

TIM succeeded on one major account. He brought shepard back to do one thing, destroy the collectors, he did that. Now that my shep has fullfilled his obligation to TIM, he respectfully told him "Fall in line or step aside, but DON'T get in my way!"

[DaBigDragon]

As long as Cerberus is being led by The Illusive Man, they will always be the bad guys. His methods are too extreme and xenophobic.

They got what was coming to them in Retribution and I think that serves to show that they will be extremely weakened in ME3.


I find it ironic that Cerberus had to recruit a team of aliens to stop the Collectors in ME2. Hypocritical much, Cerberus?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...

@Zulu_DFA

I notice you accuse Anderson of treason quite a bit, when it comes to his actions/point of views against Cerberus

why?

they're not a government or a embodiment of humanity as a whole
so I'm just curious as to how you've reached that assesment, of him


by the way, as you may have noticed, or not, I haven't participated in the pro/anti-Cerberus debates
so this is a genuine question

Imagine: US have a problem with KKK, that "infiltrates" US government, military and so on. And Colin Powell comes to Vladimir Putin and says: "Look, Vladimir, could you please use some of your KGB and Spetsnaz guys to clean up our KKK problem? You see, I can't trust the FBI and the Marines..."

Complete strawman.

Cerberus is the KKK? That's letting them off quite easy.

How about this:

Imagine: West Germany has a problem with former NDSAP officials holding multiple levels of office in politics, military, and so on. They are still conducting highly illegal experiments, murdering military personnel, and kidnapping civilians. Konrad Adenauer comes to Harry Truman and says: "Look Harry, could you please use some of your CIA and 10 SFG? You see, I can't trust the Bundesgrenzschutz and the Bundeswehr..."

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 23 août 2010 - 11:26 .

[krimesh]

You know guys, Cerberus does not fail EVERY mission, only so many that it might seem a little irresponsible to trust them with collector bases and stuff like that. Except of course that Cerberus NEVER actually FAILS, its just that they:
*get betrayed by their own people
*get betrayed by the traitor Anderson, their sworn enemy, thats really hard on them, isn't it...
*get attacked by the evil Turians - what did poor Cerberus ever do to them, except wanting to dominate them (that was Zulu's claim anyway)
*get a huge disadvantage because they are being called terrorist without any reason whatsoever - and of course this is not a subtle hint from the authors of ME that Cerberus actually does commit crimes against humans and others making them, yes, terrorist.

EDIT: this works best if you imagine an angry kid standing next to the post and stamping its foot every other line.

Yesterday I wanted to go running, but my hand betrayed me and did not open the door. So I used my other hand, the cunning bastard that I am, but then there were THE STAIRS. I did not fail. Its just that the odds were against me.

Modifié par krimesh, 23 août 2010 - 02:16 .

[Skyblade012]

krimesh wrote...

You know guys, Cerberus does not fail EVERY mission, only so many that it might seem a little irresponsible to trust them with collector bases and stuff like that. Except of course that Cerberus NEVER actually FAILS, its just that they:
*get betrayed by their own people
*get betrayed by the traitor Anderson, their sworn enemy, thats really hard on them, isn't it...
*get attacked by the evil Turians - what did poor Cerberus ever do to them, except wanting to dominate them (that was Zulu's claim anyway)
*get a huge disadvantage because they are being called terrorist without any reason whatsoever - and of course this is not a subtle hint from the authors of ME that Cerberus actually does commit crimes against humans and others making them, yes, terrorist.

EDIT: this works best if you imagine an angry kid standing next to the post and stamping its foot every other line.

Yesterday I wanted to go running, but my hand betrayed me and did not open the door. So I used my other hand, the cunning bastard that I am, but then there were THE STAIRS. I did not fail. Its just that the odds were against me.

Um, they actually failed quite a bit.

Here's something salvaged from another thread talking about Cerberus's epic fail.

Let's face it, Cerberus is basically an entire organization dedicated to The Worf Effect.  They get talked up a lot.  Everyone on the galactic stage knows about them, considers them a serious threat, etcetera.  And then they fail.  Over and over and over and over.  Want the list?

Attempt to enslave Rachni:  Failure
Attempt to enslave Thorian Creepers: Failure
Attempt to enslave Husks: Failure
Attempt to maintain project secrecy by assassinating a human admiral: Failure (that group got wiped out, even though Kohoku died)
Project Lazarus: Success!  Barely, but still a success.  Grats, dudes.
Project Overlord: Failure
Project Firewalker: Failure

Take note, that EDI says that Cerberus is operating three cells currently.  Overlord and Lazarus are each one, referred to specifically as such, and Firewalker is probably the last.  So Lazarus is their only current success, and if you choose to destroy the base and turn on TIM, the success of that one is in question as well (since he determines whether it is a success or failure).

Pretty much everything that we know of that Cerberus succeeds at is either cranking out new weapons or armor (like the Cerberus Assault Armor and the Arc Projector), or is something done by Shepard.  They get talked up big, but we never get to see or even hear about their successes.  Why the heck would we take them seriously?

Honestly, we need a new Cerberus news feed, updating us on Cerberus projects that are doing well.  Some info on successful strikes around the galaxy.  Even a hub world we can explore and see them in the middle of something that isn't blowing up in their face.

There's the list.  Now let's analyze it.  Overlord and Firewalker both failed on their own merits.  The AI hybrid went psycho, and the Firewalker team screwed around with Reaper tech and got indoctrinated.  The Rachni project failed on its own, they escaped, killed their captors, and started to spread around before Shep goes to clean up the mess.  The world we see them running husk experiments on makes it seem like the science team got indoctrinated and converted as well.  Then there's the attempt to keep themselves secret.  Yeah, taking out a section of the military and then assassinating a high ranking official is not the best way to stay off the radar.  So that one failed too.

So how exactly do they "not fail" again?

[Zulu_DFA]

DaBigDragon wrote...

As long as Cerberus is being led by The Illusive Man, they will always be the bad guys. His methods are too extreme and xenophobic.

They got what was coming to them in Retribution and I think that serves to show that they will be extremely weakened in ME3.


I find it ironic that Cerberus had to recruit a team of aliens to stop the Collectors in ME2. Hypocritical much, Cerberus?

Yeah...

Because it just so happens, we have yet to see a single xenophobic act of Cerberus.

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

AriesXX7 wrote...

@Zulu_DFA

I notice you accuse Anderson of treason quite a bit, when it comes to his actions/point of views against Cerberus

why?

they're not a government or a embodiment of humanity as a whole
so I'm just curious as to how you've reached that assesment, of him


by the way, as you may have noticed, or not, I haven't participated in the pro/anti-Cerberus debates
so this is a genuine question

Imagine: US have a problem with KKK, that "infiltrates" US government, military and so on. And Colin Powell comes to Vladimir Putin and says: "Look, Vladimir, could you please use some of your KGB and Spetsnaz guys to clean up our KKK problem? You see, I can't trust the FBI and the Marines..."

Complete strawman.

Cerberus is the KKK? That's letting them off quite easy.

How about this:

Imagine: West Germany has a problem with former NDSAP officials holding multiple levels of office in politics, military, and so on. They are still conducting highly illegal experiments, murdering military personnel, and kidnapping civilians. Konrad Adenauer comes to Harry Truman and says: "Look Harry, could you please use some of your CIA and 10 SFG? You see, I can't trust the Bundesgrenzschutz and the Bundeswehr..."

Your example has one invalidating flaw: last I checked, the Systems Alliance had not been previously "liberated" from Cerberus by the Turians (or, more precisely, conquered into their galactic order with comsumerism and child obesity restrictions on space colonization and sitting on your ass when the Reapers are coming).

Also, your example is the example of US dominance. So it implies Turian dominance in the ME universe. Which kinda affirms the idea of dominace. And since there has to be dominance, TIM wants to secure it for the Humans.

krimesh wrote...

Yesterday I wanted to go running, but my hand betrayed me and did not open the door. So I used my other hand, the cunning bastard that I am, but then there were THE STAIRS. I did not fail. Its just that the odds were against me.

But Cerberus is "running", in spite of all its "failures". Might as well help them by giving better shoes.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 août 2010 - 03:56 .

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

krimesh wrote...

Yesterday I wanted to go running, but my hand betrayed me and did not open the door. So I used my other hand, the cunning bastard that I am, but then there were THE STAIRS. I did not fail. Its just that the odds were against me.

But Cerberus is "running", in spite of all its "failures". Might as well help them by giving better shoes.

Though giving Cerberus better shoes would probably result in it kicking even more puppies than it already does. I personally don't get the arguement that you should judge them by their supposed success, since such successes are in fact unknown. And the Arc Projector wasn't that good by the way.

[Skyblade012]

And the Arc Projector wasn't that good by the way.

True, but apparently a Cerberus squad did use it to destroy a geth force.  So according to the game lore, that is one of the very, very few successes they have had.

[Zulu_DFA]

Skyblade012 wrote...

So how exactly do they "not fail" again?

Again: Project Lazarus. Total success. Brought Shepard back from the dead. Set up a live fire test for him and eliminated a bunch of traitors (Wilson & Co).

Assisted Jacob to thwart Batarian terrorists' plans to assassinate the Council.

Built SR-2

Built EDI

Researched and developed multiple weapon and equipment advanced prototypes.

Took control of Terra Firma.

Found the Derelict Reaper, recovered Reaper IFF.

Found Klendagon BFG.

Retribution - success against all odds.

And these are just from the top of my head, the stuff we know of. And my guess is that there's been tons of stuff more over the last 20 years, just it was never announced on the Extranet. "Natural causes"...

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 24 août 2010 - 04:21 .

[Roamingmachine]

Cerberus are outlawed terrorists in council space and fair game where ever found to whoever finds them.The turians like to see themselves as the police force of council space due to their culture of public service.Remember what triggered the First Contact War? A logical choice for Anderson to go to when you cannot trust the utterly infiltrated Alliance.

While i'm sure certain people on this board would cheer for Cerberus even if it was revealed that they eat kittens (they allready do experiment on and murder children), it makes me smile that this book has gotten the cheerleaders firmly on the defensive with arguments that amount to 'it's not their fault, its everyone elses! Theyre just good boys trying to turn their life around'.Sorry, but Cerberus is a morally bankrup evil organization of the James Bond type and the only thing TIM needs is a white cat.And Shepards' boot up his a**.