132 réponses à ce sujet

[krimesh]

Skyblade012 wrote...

krimesh wrote...

You know guys, Cerberus does not fail EVERY mission, only so many that it might seem a little irresponsible to trust them with collector bases and stuff like that. Except of course that Cerberus NEVER actually FAILS, its just that they:
*get betrayed by their own people
*get betrayed by the traitor Anderson, their sworn enemy, thats really hard on them, isn't it...
*get attacked by the evil Turians - what did poor Cerberus ever do to them, except wanting to dominate them (that was Zulu's claim anyway)
*get a huge disadvantage because they are being called terrorist without any reason whatsoever - and of course this is not a subtle hint from the authors of ME that Cerberus actually does commit crimes against humans and others making them, yes, terrorist.

EDIT: this works best if you imagine an angry kid standing next to the post and stamping its foot every other line.

Yesterday I wanted to go running, but my hand betrayed me and did not open the door. So I used my other hand, the cunning bastard that I am, but then there were THE STAIRS. I did not fail. Its just that the odds were against me.

Um, they actually failed quite a bit.

......................

So how exactly do they "not fail" again?

okay, now that I stopped laughing: I admit, this is not the best ironic post I have ever written, it might actually be the worst ever, but nonetheless the fact that in this company someone was actually able to mistake me for pro-cerberus illustrates that pro-cerberus people are sort of kicking their own asses at the moment.
OR *someone* [a finger is being pointed ] did not read the post they were answering. 

[obie191970]

One good thing about the ending of the book is that we are almost certain to see Kahlee in ME3.

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Retribution - success against all odds.

So swapping data with the reapers (Ascension research on hundreds of humans with special abilities versus a few days of records on Grayson, which the reapers did not bother about in the slightest) plus the destruction of most Cerberus assets is a success against all odds?  If that is "success", then a flat line on an ECG is at least "okay"... right?

Modifié par krimesh, 23 août 2010 - 05:00 .

[Asheer_Khan]

pro cerberus people used very simple logic.



"cerberus attack everyone - good - cerberus attacked by everyone big NO GO".



In matter of fact i will be very surprised if Mac Walters will allow actually Retribution events to influence ME 3 story...

[obie191970]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

In matter of fact i will be very surprised if Mac Walters will allow actually Retribution events to influence ME 3 story...

Seeing ME is Drew's baby and he was co-lead in ME2, I'm sure there is some collaboration between the two.  Obviously Anderson is going to be there and seeing Kahlee is going back to the Citadel to work for him, you would think she is as well.  I would be surprised if she wasn't at least mentioned depending on what she discovers with Grayson.

[Michalsky]

Murdering and torturing aliens, humans and kids isn't so bad after all.

[Zulu_DFA]

krimesh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Retribution - success against all odds.

So swapping data with the reapers (Ascension research on hundreds of humans with special abilities versus a few days of records on Grayson, which the reapers did not bother about in the slightest) plus the destruction of most Cerberus assets is a success against all odds?  If that is "success", then a flat line on an ECG is at least "okay"... right?

I am not sure about "most Cerberus assets"... especially in *my* canon, where I did not go after Kahoku, gave C-Base to Cerberus, and Overlord never happened...

But as to Grayson-Husk transferring the data to the Reapers... I am also not so sure about its relative value to what the Reapers already know about us (while we still don't know squat about them, regarding you remark about the value Grayson's records, that TIM was willing to pay for, and leave a copy of them with Aria, possibly to sell to another group, which is even encouraged by the deal itself)... And it was only possible due to:

1. Rude interruption of the experiment by the Turians, then their utter ineptness at handling Grayson.

2. Aria's alteration of the plan to eliminate Grayson on sight.

And, if you haven't noticed, without Cerberus operative Kai Leng, his ship, and his hints, Sanders and Anderson would not have figured out in time what Grayson was up to, and he would have escaped again.

So, dear kids, let's say aloud altogether: "Thank you Mr. Leng!"

Asheer_Khan wrote...

In matter of fact i will be very surprised if Mac Walters will allow actually Retribution events to influence ME 3 story...

I'm sure Shepard will not be working for Cerberus for the most part of ME3, if that's what you are worried about... At least knowingly...

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I'm sure Shepard will not be working for Cerberus for the most part of ME3, if that's what you are worried about... At least knowingly...

That's the best news I've heard so far

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

krimesh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Retribution - success against all odds.

So swapping data with the reapers (Ascension research on hundreds of humans with special abilities versus a few days of records on Grayson, which the reapers did not bother about in the slightest) plus the destruction of most Cerberus assets is a success against all odds?  If that is "success", then a flat line on an ECG is at least "okay"... right?

I am not sure about "most Cerberus assets"... especially in *my* canon, where I did not go after Kahoku, gave C-Base to Cerberus, and Overlord never happened...

But as to Grayson-Husk transferring the data to the Reapers... I am also not so sure about its relative value to what the Reapers already know about us (while we still don't know squat about them, regarding you remark about the value Grayson's records, that TIM was willing to pay for, and leave a copy of them with Aria, possibly to sell to another group, which is even encouraged by the deal itself)... And it was only possible due to:

1. Rude interruption of the experiment by the Turians, then their utter ineptness at handling Grayson.

2. Aria's alteration of the plan to eliminate Grayson on sight.

And, if you haven't noticed, without Cerberus operative Kai Leng, his ship, and his hints, Sanders and Anderson would not have figured out in time what Grayson was up to, and he would have escaped again.

So, dear kids, let's say aloud altogether: "Thank you Mr. Leng!"

Lets make a deal: you don't call us dear kids, sons or whatever, and I don't call you anything either, okay?

Anyway, your canon does not matter here, because I am talking about Retribution. But never mind that.
Rather focus on your own argument and watch it bite your ass:
"the Reapers already know about us (while we still don't know squat about them" - exactly! So lets not mind what TIM would pay for, and watch instead what the guys with all the intel are doing: the reapers! They decided that Ascension data was important, and that data on Greyson was not. They had the means and opportunity to destroy the Greyson data, but they did not care. As I argued elsewhere, we don't know how the reapers want to get out of the void, so we don't know which information will be important.

Also don't start again about how everyone else tripped Cerberus up. Its irrelevant.

Finally let me ask you this: if you push someone into a chasm with one hand and barely catch them with the other, are you expecting credit for that? No Cerberus, No Grayson, No Problem. (don't start... yea without Anderson MAYBE no escape for Grayson, but without Anderson, Leng would have become a smear on the wall decorating a Grissom Academy corridor.)

So lets not thank Leng for killing Liselle, using a child as cannon fodder, and all those other nice things he did to illustrate the superiority of the human race in general and the greatness of Cerberus in particular.

EDIT: because you know, all of his other deeds seem to cancel out quite nicely - if we are lucky.

Modifié par krimesh, 23 août 2010 - 07:09 .

[Asheer_Khan]

So, dear kids, let's say aloud altogether: "Thank you Mr. Leng!"

Root in deepest Asari Hell Mr leng...

[didymos1120]

Quick: somebody bring up Hitler, so we can move on to the next "CERBERUS RULEZ! ALLIANCE IS TEH SUCK!!!one11!!" thread.

Modifié par didymos1120, 23 août 2010 - 07:33 .

[Asheer_Khan]

This is lot better .

On the side note - yes Clone Commando disobeyed Order 66 saving life of Jedi Master serving with them.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 23 août 2010 - 07:47 .

[Zulu_DFA]

[quote]krimesh wrote...
Lets make a deal: you don't call us dear kids, sons or whatever, and I don't call you anything either, okay?
[/quote]
Call me whatever you want, dear.

[quote]krimesh wrote...
They had the means and opportunity to destroy the Greyson data.
[/quote]
Oh, really? When?


[quote]krimesh wrote...
Also don't start again about how everyone else tripped Cerberus up. Its irrelevant.
[/quote]
It is relevant when it comes to the particularlies of Grayson's escape.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
Finally let me ask you this: if you push someone into a chasm with one hand and barely catch them with the other, are you expecting credit for that?
[/quote]
No. That's what Anderson did. He cleaned up the mess he created by his treason.


[quote]krimesh wrote...
No Cerberus, No Grayson, No Problem.
[/quote]
No Anderson, Grayson Terminated, No Problem. Grayson-Husk records in solid residual.


[quote]
(don't start... yea without Anderson MAYBE no escape for Grayson, but without Anderson, Leng would have become a smear on the wall decorating a Grissom Academy corridor.)
[/quote]
Sorry, already done, and without Anderson, Kai Leng would have his own shotgun. Back at the space lab. With Grayson drugged to total physical incapapity.


[quote]
So lets not thank Leng for killing Liselle, [/quote]
Oh, poor little thing. You know how it goes - wrong place wrong time.


[quote]
using a child as cannon fodder,
[/quote]
The kid wanted to be a hero.


[quote]
and all those other nice things
[/quote]
Like?


[quote]
he did to illustrate the superiority of the human race in general and the greatness of Cerberus in particular.
[/quote]
The man was doing his duty, without even being dramatic about it.


[quote]
EDIT: because you know, all of his other deeds seem to cancel out quite nicely - if we are lucky.
[/quote]
Not sure what you mean here.


[quote]didymos1120 wrote...

Quick: somebody bring up Hitler, so we can move on to the next "CERBERUS RULEZ! ALLIANCE IS TEH SUCK!!!one11!!" thread. [/quote]
I have a better idea. Let's bring back the "Cerberus is Alliance" thread.

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Not sure what you mean here.

You should not be sure about that anywhere, because you do not understand what I am saying. This is why I have been patiently rewriting the same argument in different words to get it across to you for two days now.
But you seem to feel smart and happy when you grammatically negate every sentence of an argument you don't like, so I will simply leave you in this fluffy little world of yours.

A word of caution though: tough guys like you who pretend not to care, quite often melt away quite quickly when something actually happens. There was nothing poor or little about Liselle. No one is immune to tragedy. Learning to deal with it is key. This might catch up with you one day, if it hasn't already.

Modifié par krimesh, 23 août 2010 - 09:14 .

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So lets not thank Leng for killing Liselle,

Oh, poor little thing. You know how it goes - wrong place wrong time.

Ah, yes: always a valid defense for murdering an unconscious and helpless victim.  Oh, wait.....

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So lets not thank Leng for killing Liselle,

Oh, poor little thing. You know how it goes - wrong place wrong time.

Ah, yes: always a valid defense for murdering an unconscious and helpless victim.  Oh, wait.....

Right. She zeroed one of the assailants herself... Leaving Kai Leng short on hands even if he might have wanted to extract her alive along with Grayson... Honestly, I doubt it, of course, but who knows...


Anyway, what about the Turians not taking prisoners during their assault on Cerberus? How many Kellys and Gabbys you think they wasted that day? I, for one, don't blame them. It's war.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 août 2010 - 09:24 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Didymos1120 wrote...
He betrayed them so his daughter wouldn't be a lab rat like Jack or David Archer.  It really wasn't about Kahlee at all. She merely helped convince him at the last minute to make a decision he'd been contemplating on and off for the entire book. 

It's classic tragedy, friggin Shakespeare: The inner fight "passion vs duty" in the protagonist. Passion wins and it destroys the protagonist. Drew has some sketchy to weak points on details, but in the main he got it right.

Wait... let me get this straight...  his supposed duty to a crapsack organization that lies and betrays at the drop of a hat is greater than his duty to his own daughter? 

Come again?

[Giggles_Manically]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So lets not thank Leng for killing Liselle,

Oh, poor little thing. You know how it goes - wrong place wrong time.

Ah, yes: always a valid defense for murdering an unconscious and helpless victim.  Oh, wait.....

Right. She zeroed one of the assailants herself... Leaving Kai Leng short on hands even if he might have wanted to extract her alive along with Grayson... Honestly, I doubt it, of course, but who knows...


Anyway, what about the Turians not taking prisoners during their assault on Cerberus? How many Kellys and Gabbys you think they wasted that day? I, for one, don't blame them. It's war.

That is one thing that makes me facepalm about the book.
Anderson turns it over to the military that operates on:
NUKE IT FROM ORBIT.
As their main mantra, In game and in the Revelation he is not stupid like this, yet in this book he was so OOC.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So lets not thank Leng for killing Liselle,

Oh, poor little thing. You know how it goes - wrong place wrong time.

Ah, yes: always a valid defense for murdering an unconscious and helpless victim.  Oh, wait.....

Right. She zeroed one of the assailants herself... Leaving Kai Leng short on hands even if he might have wanted to extract her alive along with Grayson... Honestly, I doubt it, of course, but who knows...


Anyway, what about the Turians not taking prisoners during their assault on Cerberus? How many Kellys and Gabbys you think they wasted that day? I, for one, don't blame them. It's war.

Who the f*ck cares?  When he killed her, she was unconscious in a bed.  He could have left her there.  I understand why he didn't, but it was still a murder of an at-that-time-helpless victim, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

And, FWIW,  I don't particularly like the way Turians do things either.  If nothing else, it would have been smarter to take at least a few prisoners.

[krimesh]

didymos1120 wrote...

Who the f*ck cares? When he killed her, she was unconscious in a bed. He could have left her there. I understand why he didn't, but it was still a murder of an at-that-time-helpless victim, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

If you have decided to go in there its done. She had to die. Elsewhere it has already been argued however that the decision to go after Grayson was itself a bad one.

Grayson was deadlocked (Grayson used his data to protect Kahlee; giving away the data would blow her cover, so he only did that the moment he could not protect her anymore; also he wanted to warn her that they might come for her, as he did not know that TIM did not care about her), and the Illusive Man new that. He however underestimated what Grayson knew and decided to take vengeance.

So the Illusive Man's vengeance killed Liselle. Leng was but the tool.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So lets not thank Leng for killing Liselle,

Oh, poor little thing. You know how it goes - wrong place wrong time.

Ah, yes: always a valid defense for murdering an unconscious and helpless victim.  Oh, wait.....

Right. She zeroed one of the assailants herself... Leaving Kai Leng short on hands even if he might have wanted to extract her alive along with Grayson... Honestly, I doubt it, of course, but who knows...


Anyway, what about the Turians not taking prisoners during their assault on Cerberus? How many Kellys and Gabbys you think they wasted that day? I, for one, don't blame them. It's war.

Who the f*ck cares?  When he killed her, she was unconscious in a bed.  He could have left her there.  I understand why he didn't, but it was still a murder of an at-that-time-helpless victim, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

Omega is lawless, remember? So it's not a murder. It's just a kill.

And, FWIW,  I don't particularly like the way Turians do things either.  If nothing else, it would have been smarter to take at least a few prisoners.

Taking prisoners slows your advance and raises your losses, especially during special ops. The Turians had it worse than anticipated even as it were.

[didymos1120]

krimesh wrote...
If you have decided to go in there its done. She had to die. Elsewhere it has already been argued however that the decision to go after Grayson was itself a bad one.

No, she really could have been left.  It would have made the lie sold to Aria later impossible, but Leng had no clue TIM would need such a story and there was no immediate need to kill her.  It's not like Liselle could have told Aria much, other than "It wasn't Grayson.", and she was no longer a threat, what with the being naked, disarmed, and unconscious and staying that way for a good long while.  Leng had his reasons, yes.  They just don't do anything to alter the status of the act: murder, pure and simple.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
Omega is lawless, remember? So it's not a murder. It's just a kill.

Like I make my moral judgements based on local ordinances or the lack thereof.  Legally, you're technically correct.  I don't care about that, though.

[Zulu_DFA]

krimesh wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Who the f*ck cares? When he killed her, she was unconscious in a bed. He could have left her there. I understand why he didn't, but it was still a murder of an at-that-time-helpless victim, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

If you have decided to go in there its done. She had to die. Elsewhere it has already been argued however that the decision to go after Grayson was itself a bad one.
Grayson was deadlocked (Grayson used his data to protect Kahlee; giving away the data would blow her cover, so he only did that the moment he could not protect her anymore; also he wanted to warn her that they might come for her, as he did not know that TIM did not care about her), and the Illusive Man new that. He however underestimated what Grayson knew and decided to take vengeance.

If Grayson had that data-package prepped to send off with one button hit, that was already a hostile action against Cerberus! What if it was not Kai Leng, that raided his appartment, but some Omega gang? Grayson would've still thought that it's Cerberus coming after him and sent the data! This "Cerburus triggured it dumsulves" argument is totally retarded. And if Grayson cared so much for Kahlee's safety, why it had to be her that he sent his data? Now he is dead and she is a potential target! Before that Cerberus didn't care if she existed. Good job, Paul!

To make it more clear, imagine: You're a Mafia hitman, and betrayed the God Father. Now the God Father is after you, but you've got a cache of cocaine in a suitcase with his monogrammed handkerchief and fingerprints in it. You are afraid that the God Father will harm your sister, who was in the same car when you stole the cocaine. So you call the God Father and tell him, that if so much as one hair falls off your little sister's head, the FBI gets the suitcase. But when the Mafia guys finally come after you, you send the suitcase... to you sister!

So the Illusive Man's vengeance killed Liselle. Leng was but the tool.

Or was it Grayson's betrayal?

Don't forget also, that the experiment HAD to be done, so choosing Grayson as the subject saved some other, possibly "innocent" individual.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 01 octobre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Your example has one invalidating flaw: last I checked, the Systems Alliance had not been previously "liberated" from Cerberus by the Turians (or, more precisely, conquered into their galactic order with comsumerism and child obesity restrictions on space colonization and sitting on your ass when the Reapers are coming).

Not a flaw. Going to an ally (who was a former enemy) to help remove terrorists that have infiltrated your government and military does not constitute treason in any way, shape or form. Your quip on my response to you earlier serves no purpose.

Also, your example is the example of US dominance. So it
implies Turian dominance in the ME universe. Which kinda affirms the
idea of dominace. And since there has to be dominance, TIM wants to
secure it for the Humans.

It has nothing to do with dominance. It is an example of going to an ally to help remove a problem that your own government is incapable of solving due to infiltration by terrorists. You can replace the U.S. with any western nation, even Belgium, and the result is the same. Would you argue that such an example would highlight Belgian dominance? You have a mantra of repeating "traitor" with Anderson and "dominance" with TIM without doing anything to prove your point.