132 réponses à ce sujet

[krimesh]

didymos1120 wrote...

No, she really could have been left.  It would have made the lie sold to Aria later impossible, but Leng had no clue TIM would need such a story and there was no immediate need to kill her.  It's not like Liselle could have told Aria much, other than "It wasn't Grayson.", and she was no longer a threat, what with the being naked, disarmed, and unconscious and staying that way for a good long while.  Leng had his reasons, yes.  They just don't do anything to alter the status of the act: murder, pure and simple.

Certainly pure and simple murder. But it goes without saying that it is a lot better not to leave clues about who did it, especially if the person you are pissing off is Aria T'Loak. That's why Leng bothered to improvise with the red dust. Liselle could have provided unique intel about the attack to Aria. Besides she was a capable merc, part of a strong organization and Grayson's lover, so she might come back for vengeance. Nonetheless the loss of her life was a pointless waste.

That is exactly why operations like this should only be undertaken if really necessary; TIM does not understand this, and he paid a price for it. Going after Grayson cost him a lot. He seems not to have learned though.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...
Like I make my moral judgements based on local ordinances.

Makes you a dangerous person...

I like your unused audio stuff.

[krimesh]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

krimesh wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Who the f*ck cares? When he killed her, she was unconscious in a bed. He could have left her there. I understand why he didn't, but it was still a murder of an at-that-time-helpless victim, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

If you have decided to go in there its done. She had to die. Elsewhere it has already been argued however that the decision to go after Grayson was itself a bad one.
Grayson was deadlocked (Grayson used his data to protect Kahlee; giving away the data would blow her cover, so he only did that the moment he could not protect her anymore; also he wanted to warn her that they might come for her, as he did not know that TIM did not care about her), and the Illusive Man new that. He however underestimated what Grayson knew and decided to take vengeance.

If Grayson had that data-package prepped to send off with one button hit, that was already a hostile action against Cerberus! What if it was not Kai Leng, that raided his appartment, but some Omega gang? Grayson would've still thought that it's Cerberus coming after him and sent the data! This "Cerburus triggured it dumsulves" argument is totally retarded. And if Grayson cared so much for Kahlee's safety, why it had to be her that he sent his data? Now he is dead and she is a potential target! Before that Cerberus didn't care if she existed. Good job, Paul!

To make it more clear, imagine: You're a Mafia hitman, and betrayed the God Father. Now the God Father is after you, but you've got a cash of cocaine in a suitcase with his monogrammed handkerchief and fingerprints in it. You are afraid that the God Father will harm your sister, who was in the same car when you stole the cocaine. So you call the God Father and tell him, that if so much as one hair falls off your little sister's head, the FBI gets the suitcase. But when the Mafia guys finally come after you, you send the suitcase... to you sister!

So the Illusive Man's vengeance killed Liselle. Leng was but the tool.

Or was it Grayson's betrayal?

Don't forget also, that the experiment HAD to be done, so choosing Grayson as the subject saved some other, possibly "innocent" individual.

If murder is not bad by itself, then neither is betrayal.

In general, why is it that killing and betrayal is fine if Cerberus does it, while even protecting yourself by having a contingency plan against Cerberus is enough to legitimate any kind of action by Cerberus?

[Asheer_Khan]

Because for humans everything is allowed... apparently...

[MTN Dew Fanatic]

[krimesh]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Because for humans everything is allowed... apparently...

You actually identify yourself as Asari, don't you? 

[Zulu_DFA]

krimesh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

krimesh wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Who the f*ck cares? When he killed her, she was unconscious in a bed. He could have left her there. I understand why he didn't, but it was still a murder of an at-that-time-helpless victim, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

If you have decided to go in there its done. She had to die. Elsewhere it has already been argued however that the decision to go after Grayson was itself a bad one.
Grayson was deadlocked (Grayson used his data to protect Kahlee; giving away the data would blow her cover, so he only did that the moment he could not protect her anymore; also he wanted to warn her that they might come for her, as he did not know that TIM did not care about her), and the Illusive Man new that. He however underestimated what Grayson knew and decided to take vengeance.

If Grayson had that data-package prepped to send off with one button hit, that was already a hostile action against Cerberus! What if it was not Kai Leng, that raided his appartment, but some Omega gang? Grayson would've still thought that it's Cerberus coming after him and sent the data! This "Cerburus triggured it dumsulves" argument is totally retarded. And if Grayson cared so much for Kahlee's safety, why it had to be her that he sent his data? Now he is dead and she is a potential target! Before that Cerberus didn't care if she existed. Good job, Paul!

To make it more clear, imagine: You're a Mafia hitman, and betrayed the God Father. Now the God Father is after you, but you've got a cash of cocaine in a suitcase with his monogrammed handkerchief and fingerprints in it. You are afraid that the God Father will harm your sister, who was in the same car when you stole the cocaine. So you call the God Father and tell him, that if so much as one hair falls off your little sister's head, the FBI gets the suitcase. But when the Mafia guys finally come after you, you send the suitcase... to you sister!

So the Illusive Man's vengeance killed Liselle. Leng was but the tool.

Or was it Grayson's betrayal?

Don't forget also, that the experiment HAD to be done, so choosing Grayson as the subject saved some other, possibly "innocent" individual.

If murder is not bad by itself, then neither is betrayal.

In general, why is it that killing and betrayal is fine if Cerberus does it, while even protecting yourself by having a contingency plan against Cerberus is enough to legitimate any kind of action by Cerberus?

That's kinda logical, that "having a contingency plan against Cerberus is enough to legitimate any kind of action by Cerberus". Maybe not "legitimize", but simply "provoke".

And a traitor remains traitor regardless of their motives or the party they are currently with. The Turians maybe the good guys from somebody's point of view, and that makes Anderson a good guy too, but he doesn't cease to be a traitor.

[Giggles_Manically]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

krimesh wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

krimesh wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Who the f*ck cares? When he killed her, she was unconscious in a bed. He could have left her there. I understand why he didn't, but it was still a murder of an at-that-time-helpless victim, no matter how hard you try to spin it.

If you have decided to go in there its done. She had to die. Elsewhere it has already been argued however that the decision to go after Grayson was itself a bad one.
Grayson was deadlocked (Grayson used his data to protect Kahlee; giving away the data would blow her cover, so he only did that the moment he could not protect her anymore; also he wanted to warn her that they might come for her, as he did not know that TIM did not care about her), and the Illusive Man new that. He however underestimated what Grayson knew and decided to take vengeance.

If Grayson had that data-package prepped to send off with one button hit, that was already a hostile action against Cerberus! What if it was not Kai Leng, that raided his appartment, but some Omega gang? Grayson would've still thought that it's Cerberus coming after him and sent the data! This "Cerburus triggured it dumsulves" argument is totally retarded. And if Grayson cared so much for Kahlee's safety, why it had to be her that he sent his data? Now he is dead and she is a potential target! Before that Cerberus didn't care if she existed. Good job, Paul!

To make it more clear, imagine: You're a Mafia hitman, and betrayed the God Father. Now the God Father is after you, but you've got a cash of cocaine in a suitcase with his monogrammed handkerchief and fingerprints in it. You are afraid that the God Father will harm your sister, who was in the same car when you stole the cocaine. So you call the God Father and tell him, that if so much as one hair falls off your little sister's head, the FBI gets the suitcase. But when the Mafia guys finally come after you, you send the suitcase... to you sister!

So the Illusive Man's vengeance killed Liselle. Leng was but the tool.

Or was it Grayson's betrayal?

Don't forget also, that the experiment HAD to be done, so choosing Grayson as the subject saved some other, possibly "innocent" individual.

If murder is not bad by itself, then neither is betrayal.

In general, why is it that killing and betrayal is fine if Cerberus does it, while even protecting yourself by having a contingency plan against Cerberus is enough to legitimate any kind of action by Cerberus?

That's kinda logical, that "having a contingency plan against Cerberus is enough to legitimate any kind of action by Cerberus". Maybe not "legitimize", but simply "provoke".

And a traitor remains traitor regardless of their motives or the party they are currently with. The Turians maybe the good guys from somebody's point of view, and that makes Anderson a good guy too, but he doesn't cease to be a traitor.

How exactly is he a traitor since Cerberus is not the government or group he works for?
Treason is only against people you work, or are allied with.

Wont deny in the book he is stupid since in game he goes on and on about the Reapers, but suddenly is blinded by Cerberus hate? That is not the anderson in game, or from Revelation. Mr Drew cant seem to keep his charachters consistent.

Pretty much the whole book made me facepalm.

[Sajuro]

I'm sorry but who did Anderson betray? Cerberus isn't part of the Alliance (officially) and he never said he was loyal to The Illusive Man.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sajuro wrote...

I'm sorry but who did Anderson betray? Cerberus isn't part of the Alliance (officially) and he never said he was loyal to The Illusive Man.

Unless its some Lost/BSG style conspiracy where everyone works for someone else and Anderson is really trying to take over the whole time....

Damn I hate those shows, but that would be a cool twist.

[Sajuro]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I'm sorry but who did Anderson betray? Cerberus isn't part of the Alliance (officially) and he never said he was loyal to The Illusive Man.

Unless its some Lost/BSG style conspiracy where everyone works for someone else and Anderson is really trying to take over the whole time....

Damn I hate those shows, but that would be a cool twist.

It was a Xanatos Roulette initiated by Anderson that led Saren to Sovereign and then he recomended Shepard for the Spectres so when Saren attacked a human colony Shepard would be sent after him. Shepard would track down Saren and kill both him and Sovereign, securing Humanity a seat on the council if not the entire council. He then led the Collectors to the Normandy and told Liara that the Shadow Broker was going to sell Shepard's body to the Collectors and subsequently used Cerberus to revive Shepard who was then tasked with destroying the Collectors. Along the way, Shepard recruited the Justicar Samara to distract her so she wouldn't find out about his dealings in Asari space as well as deal with Sidonis who had become a comprimised Agent after Anderson had him sell out Garrus' team.

[Giggles_Manically]

Sajuro wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I'm sorry but who did Anderson betray? Cerberus isn't part of the Alliance (officially) and he never said he was loyal to The Illusive Man.

Unless its some Lost/BSG style conspiracy where everyone works for someone else and Anderson is really trying to take over the whole time....

Damn I hate those shows, but that would be a cool twist.

It was a Xanatos Roulette initiated by Anderson that led Saren to Sovereign and then he recomended Shepard for the Spectres so when Saren attacked a human colony Shepard would be sent after him. Shepard would track down Saren and kill both him and Sovereign, securing Humanity a seat on the council if not the entire council. He then led the Collectors to the Normandy and told Liara that the Shadow Broker was going to sell Shepard's body to the Collectors and subsequently used Cerberus to revive Shepard who was then tasked with destroying the Collectors. Along the way, Shepard recruited the Justicar Samara to distract her so she wouldn't find out about his dealings in Asari space as well as deal with Sidonis who had become a comprimised Agent after Anderson had him sell out Garrus' team.

Ah, then I would wonder why Anderson even needed Shepard. Since if he can do all this he must be cyborg pirate ninja jesus in space.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 24 août 2010 - 01:17 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

How exactly is he a traitor since Cerberus is not the government or group he works for?
Treason is only against people you work, or are allied with.

Wont deny in the book he is stupid since in game he goes on and on about the Reapers, but suddenly is blinded by Cerberus hate? That is not the anderson in game, or from Revelation. Mr Drew cant seem to keep his charachters consistent.

Pretty much the whole book made me facepalm.

Good thing you bring back the Reapers to the discussion. Aside from being a traitor, Anderson also acts like an idiot. Well, sometimes you can't tell one thing from another, so in the end it doesn't matter... Still, Anderson does know about the Reapers. And he knows from Shepard that Cerberus is, in fact, taking proactive action against the Reapers, with Shepard onboard... And he sets Cerberus up! Wasn't he thinking that it would become a setback in the anti-Reaper effort?

All right, back to his treason. He does not betray Cerberus, he betrays the Alliance! Even if you cast aside the theory, that Cerberus IS part of the Alliance, it's still a treason to reveal to the Turians the fact, that the Alliance is incapable and/or unwilling to battle rampant corruption inside itself... If anything, it will cost the Alliance a lot of diplomatic ground in the coming years, and although it may seem a trifle from the gaming PoV, in-universe it's a serious matter and I have a feeling that it will be reflected in ME3. Anderson will lose his official status and have to resort to his friends "outside the Alliance" that he mentions to Kahlee in the end.

And here we come to his motivation. It seems, the whole thing is only because Kahlee asked him! For love! If you allow me, I'll *facepalm* here with you. He could have indeed to try to contact Shepard, or try seeking some other options (Is he himself really the only person he trusts in the Alliance? After all these years? Does he have no friends? Or any of his friends could be with Cerberus? Which would mean...), he could have waited, given it all a second thought... But no, Paul Grayson was in peril, and Kahlee wanted Anderson to go for the quickest option. So yeah...

[Sajuro]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

I'm sorry but who did Anderson betray? Cerberus isn't part of the Alliance (officially) and he never said he was loyal to The Illusive Man.

Unless its some Lost/BSG style conspiracy where everyone works for someone else and Anderson is really trying to take over the whole time....

Damn I hate those shows, but that would be a cool twist.

It was a Xanatos Roulette initiated by Anderson that led Saren to Sovereign and then he recomended Shepard for the Spectres so when Saren attacked a human colony Shepard would be sent after him. Shepard would track down Saren and kill both him and Sovereign, securing Humanity a seat on the council if not the entire council. He then led the Collectors to the Normandy and told Liara that the Shadow Broker was going to sell Shepard's body to the Collectors and subsequently used Cerberus to revive Shepard who was then tasked with destroying the Collectors. Along the way, Shepard recruited the Justicar Samara to distract her so she wouldn't find out about his dealings in Asari space as well as deal with Sidonis who had become a comprimised Agent after Anderson had him sell out Garrus' team.

Ah, then I would wonder why Anderson even needed Shepard. Since if he can do all this he must be cyborg pirate ninja jesus in space.

Because who would he betray whilst laughing evilly and revealling his whole plan in ME3 to? By the way, whether or not Shepard blew up the Collector Base was of no consequence to Anderson's plan as he was going for a super weapon hidden beneath the Teltin Facility that you blew to hell, oh and did I mention he orchastrated Jack's escape? He also killed Miranda's father and sent Eclipse Mercenaries to get Orianna back so Shepard would gain the loyalty of Miranda, depriving TIM of one of his best operatives.

[Sajuro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

it's still a treason to reveal to the Turians the fact, that the Alliance is incapable and/or unwilling to battle rampant corruption inside itself...

Except that nearly every government is rife with corruption, and intelligence service would probably rank that as small potatoes if potatoes at all since the Alliance is still functioning despite the infiltration of Cerberus. It could be good if the Aliens got solid leads that Cerberus had infiltrated the Alliance, that way they could put the pressure on humans who are either unwillingly to deal with it or ignorant of it, to deal with Cerberus and purge the Alliance of a morally bankrupt terrorist organization.
Yay Anderson.

[PrinceLionheart]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

How exactly is he a traitor since Cerberus is not the government or group he works for?
Treason is only against people you work, or are allied with.

Wont deny in the book he is stupid since in game he goes on and on about the Reapers, but suddenly is blinded by Cerberus hate? That is not the anderson in game, or from Revelation. Mr Drew cant seem to keep his charachters consistent.

Pretty much the whole book made me facepalm.

Good thing you bring back the Reapers to the discussion. Aside from being a traitor, Anderson also acts like an idiot. Well, sometimes you can't tell one thing from another, so in the end it doesn't matter... Still, Anderson does know about the Reapers. And he knows from Shepard that Cerberus is, in fact, taking proactive action against the Reapers, with Shepard onboard... And he sets Cerberus up! Wasn't he thinking that it would become a setback in the anti-Reaper effort?

All right, back to his treason. He does not betray Cerberus, he betrays the Alliance! Even if you cast aside the theory, that Cerberus IS part of the Alliance, it's still a treason to reveal to the Turians the fact, that the Alliance is incapable and/or unwilling to battle rampant corruption inside itself... If anything, it will cost the Alliance a lot of diplomatic ground in the coming years, and although it may seem a trifle from the gaming PoV, in-universe it's a serious matter and I have a feeling that it will be reflected in ME3. Anderson will lose his official status and have to resort to his friends "outside the Alliance" that he mentions to Kahlee in the end.

And here we come to his motivation. It seems, the whole thing is only because Kahlee asked him! For love! If you allow me, I'll *facepalm* here with you. He could have indeed to try to contact Shepard, or try seeking some other options (Is he himself really the only person he trusts in the Alliance? After all these years? Does he have no friends? Or any of his friends could be with Cerberus? Which would mean...), he could have waited, given it all a second thought... But no, Paul Grayson was in peril, and Kahlee wanted Anderson to go for the quickest option. So yeah...

Going by what the game showed, Cerberus is a Black Ops group that has gone rogue. I.E. no longer officially associated with the Alliance therefore trying to use that as a reason to say Anderson committed treason is flat out wrong.

[Giggles_Manically]

Yeah Zulu, its pretty obvious that the Alliance are a bunch of bimbos to anyone.

Just look at how Shepard has to clean up there accidents in part 1.



But yes Anderson is the last person I thought would do that, someone like Admiral H. from 1 would do that, but Anderson?



What is Drew smoking? Anderson is the only person who believes you, and now he goes after Cerberus like a crusader.



Ah well best to just ignore the books.

The games do, since Ascension is only in about three or four lines on Freedoms Progress.

[Arijharn]

PrinceLionheart, I suggest you re-read what Zulu wrote in its entirety. If I read Zulu correctly, the crux of his argument is that by telling the Turian's the internal state of the Alliance (as Anderson see's it) he's basically committing treason (although personally, I think using the word 'treason' is perhaps too harsh, although undoubtedly unadvisable)



Despite whatever TIM's personal motivations, communicating with the Reapers in some way is needed, because communication can lead to other outcomes (for example, if they knew what the Reapers really wanted or got out of their cycles of destruction, they could probably better plan defensive measures).

[Arijharn]

The one issue I now have with your idea Zulu of 'Cerberus IS part of the Alliance' is why wouldn't they recruit Anderson (not now, but when he was a N7 graduate).



If it stands to recruit anyone within the Alliance military, I would think they'd first want to recruit from the specialists that the n7 represent. Anderson, before the events of ME1, was basically the best N7 the Alliance had and was probably fast tracked to promotion.



A good rebuttal I guess is it's exactly because he's a hero that would make him an unattractive prospect for recruitment... and he was the Alliance's first pick for spectre candidacy.



Anyway, my tangent is now over, feel free to join in!

[Zulu_DFA]

@ Arijharn



Anderson is indeed not a Cerberus type. Better question is why would Cerberus bother with some uber-paragon alien-loving Shepards out there... Well, I suppose, by getting himself killed, Shepard just went below the level of official Alliance activities, so if the Alliance wanted Shepard back, it had to be Cerberus who ran the Lazarus Project, regardless of Shepard's carma.

[Skyblade012]

krimesh wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

krimesh wrote...

You know guys, Cerberus does not fail EVERY mission, only so many that it might seem a little irresponsible to trust them with collector bases and stuff like that. Except of course that Cerberus NEVER actually FAILS, its just that they:
*get betrayed by their own people
*get betrayed by the traitor Anderson, their sworn enemy, thats really hard on them, isn't it...
*get attacked by the evil Turians - what did poor Cerberus ever do to them, except wanting to dominate them (that was Zulu's claim anyway)
*get a huge disadvantage because they are being called terrorist without any reason whatsoever - and of course this is not a subtle hint from the authors of ME that Cerberus actually does commit crimes against humans and others making them, yes, terrorist.

EDIT: this works best if you imagine an angry kid standing next to the post and stamping its foot every other line.

Yesterday I wanted to go running, but my hand betrayed me and did not open the door. So I used my other hand, the cunning bastard that I am, but then there were THE STAIRS. I did not fail. Its just that the odds were against me.

Um, they actually failed quite a bit.

......................

So how exactly do they "not fail" again?

okay, now that I stopped laughing: I admit, this is not the best ironic post I have ever written, it might actually be the worst ever, but nonetheless the fact that in this company someone was actually able to mistake me for pro-cerberus illustrates that pro-cerberus people are sort of kicking their own asses at the moment.
OR *someone* [a finger is being pointed ] did not read the post they were answering. 

Yeah, sorry about that.

But you should have listed "sheer incompetence" among their reasons.  The lack of that made me feel you were giving Cerberus too much credit.

Modifié par Skyblade012, 24 août 2010 - 03:11 .

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

All right, back to his treason. He does not betray Cerberus, he betrays the Alliance! Even if you cast aside the theory, that Cerberus IS part of the Alliance, it's still a treason to reveal to the Turians the fact, that the Alliance is incapable and/or unwilling to battle rampant corruption inside itself... If anything, it will cost the Alliance a lot of diplomatic ground in the coming years, and although it may seem a trifle from the gaming PoV, in-universe it's a serious matter and I have a feeling that it will be reflected in ME3. Anderson will lose his official status and have to resort to his friends "outside the Alliance" that he mentions to Kahlee in the end.

The Turians already know the extent of Cerberus' infiltration, hence why they opposed Humanity having a seat on the council. When it comes to Cerberus, your batting average is worse than the Mariners.

Modifié par Dr. Peter Venkman, 24 août 2010 - 05:16 .

[PWENER]

GO CERBERUS!!!



Im pro-Cerberus by the way...

Modifié par PWENER, 24 août 2010 - 05:16 .

[RiouHotaru]

*sighs and facepalms* This again? Zulu, you must really love inciting the masses with these arguments. I understand you wanting to promote your canon, but you do absolutely have to be so confrontational about it? Not to mention acting as though everything you say is a certain fact.

Edit: Since you like to use this, I'll use this as a counter-argument to your pro-Cerberus logic:  Haters gunna hate.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 24 août 2010 - 06:30 .

[Arijharn]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Arijharn

Anderson is indeed not a Cerberus type. Better question is why would Cerberus bother with some uber-paragon alien-loving Shepards out there... Well, I suppose, by getting himself killed, Shepard just went below the level of official Alliance activities, so if the Alliance wanted Shepard back, it had to be Cerberus who ran the Lazarus Project, regardless of Shepard's carma.

In the end though, Cerberus needs even the 'uber-paragon alien loving' Shephard's because that Shephard is still the best the Alliance has (and has minute knowledge of the threat the Reapers represent, and is still a Spectre that they could subtly apply pressure too). Additionally, there's always the possibility that they could 'corrupt' this true paragon of the masses into thinking that even if Cerberus is the devil, it's still the devil they know.

Cerberus could of been attempting to recruit Anderson throughout his formative years within the military and subtlety shape his way of thinking because Cerberus doesn't want true xenophobic people (at least, not in the ones making the decisions) so that the next generation of Alliance high command doesn't come to the shock conclusion that the Alliance has its own ultra secret police.

This may just be the way I'd do things.