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That sadly seems to be a trend... I remember when I cracked open the NWN2 toolset to discover it lacked half of my favourite NWN1 monsters, and half of all the rest of them... The number of dragons went from something like 10 to 3, we lost Vrocks and a whole bunch of other outsider-types, and a whole load more. NWN2 still has a lot more variety than DA, though.
is there any point to modding in NW2 now that DA is here?
Débuté par
morreski
, août 22 2010 07:15
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#27
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 12:25
Shallina
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We have a descent bestiary with NWN2 thanks to the custom content maker.
#28
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 12:31
Banshe
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When I was first learning about NWN2, I was worried about lack of content. But when I learned about tinting and things like that, it turned me around. There may have been less monsters etc. but you could do a whole lot more with them.
An example:
I looked at Nytir's BCK Oriental and pretty much discounted it because everything was red and looked imperial. It was fine for making palaces and other grand buildings but not more. However, upon deeper investigation, I found that I could make a whole Asiatic city by simply tinting it white instead of red.
As for critters, people may not want purple goblins but just being able to make variations of the standard goblins in terms of looks is very cool.
Edit: And ArtEChoke, JohnnyRee and RWS among others have added a lot of stuff to NWN2, monster-wise.
An example:
I looked at Nytir's BCK Oriental and pretty much discounted it because everything was red and looked imperial. It was fine for making palaces and other grand buildings but not more. However, upon deeper investigation, I found that I could make a whole Asiatic city by simply tinting it white instead of red.
As for critters, people may not want purple goblins but just being able to make variations of the standard goblins in terms of looks is very cool.
Edit: And ArtEChoke, JohnnyRee and RWS among others have added a lot of stuff to NWN2, monster-wise.
Modifié par Banshe, 02 septembre 2010 - 12:33 .
#29
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 12:37
Hellfire_RWS
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Eguintir Eligard wrote...
As many things as the DA toolset does not offer according to this thread,
Could you please confirm or correct the statements in this thread about the toolset.
I have zero interest in making anything for DAO. I just dont like the game or the tooslet, but i don't like spreading disinformation. I would honestly be interested to know for myself and those reading if the Pros and cons in this thread are accurate.
#30
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 02:48
-Semper-
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Hellfire_RWS wrote...
I would honestly be interested to know for myself and those reading if the Pros and cons in this thread are accurate.
i work(ed) with both toolsets and collected those statements. trust me, they are all very accurate
the lack of monsters throughout the years is beacuse now they simply need a lot more hours until the finished product. there is not enough time to create additional content which will be seen ingame just a few minutes.
Modifié par -Semper-, 02 septembre 2010 - 02:50 .
#31
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 03:00
Eguintir Eligard
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Sure no problem. At least I will be able to provide info if not ever a module based on my recent familiarity with the toolset. Let me try and making it comparable:
NWN2 vs DA:
-Resizeable/some tintable objects vs objects Rotatable on ALL axis
-Very limited animations vs virtually full animation control
-Easy to use controls vs very unfriendly ones
-Control of full creatures stats vs packages and level range only
-slow 6 second heartbeat updates vs ability to be as precise a milliseconds at running scripts
-multiple broken scripts and game bugs vs far fewer, but still present (nothing radical tho, but EA seems to have the same approach to bad support that atari does, which I was hoping to get away from)
-limited combos of heads/hair vs completely createable facial features
-on the fly shadow generation vs pre-baked shadow. Comes down to huge performance gains for DA.
-object based scripting vs event based scripting (its faster and more precise but be prepared to put every single function you do in one huge script, 1 script per object)
-area all edited as one vs level editor for static objects and terrain and an area editor for everything else
-3d terrain ability vs 3d terrain ability with very high precision (can increase vertex count) Allows you to eliminate literally all sharp edges
-height only adjustment tools vs ability to create horizontal overhangs etc
-particle fx editor that is broken (ignores all delay settings) vs working one
-toolset is abandoned vs one that is still due at least a few more updates
-custom content models at a respectable level vs seems to be none right now/ever?
I hope I didnt miss any. The vs style seems appropriate as there does seem to be a lot of trade off in similar categories.
NWN2 vs DA:
-Resizeable/some tintable objects vs objects Rotatable on ALL axis
-Very limited animations vs virtually full animation control
-Easy to use controls vs very unfriendly ones
-Control of full creatures stats vs packages and level range only
-slow 6 second heartbeat updates vs ability to be as precise a milliseconds at running scripts
-multiple broken scripts and game bugs vs far fewer, but still present (nothing radical tho, but EA seems to have the same approach to bad support that atari does, which I was hoping to get away from)
-limited combos of heads/hair vs completely createable facial features
-on the fly shadow generation vs pre-baked shadow. Comes down to huge performance gains for DA.
-object based scripting vs event based scripting (its faster and more precise but be prepared to put every single function you do in one huge script, 1 script per object)
-area all edited as one vs level editor for static objects and terrain and an area editor for everything else
-3d terrain ability vs 3d terrain ability with very high precision (can increase vertex count) Allows you to eliminate literally all sharp edges
-height only adjustment tools vs ability to create horizontal overhangs etc
-particle fx editor that is broken (ignores all delay settings) vs working one
-toolset is abandoned vs one that is still due at least a few more updates
-custom content models at a respectable level vs seems to be none right now/ever?
I hope I didnt miss any. The vs style seems appropriate as there does seem to be a lot of trade off in similar categories.
#32
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 06:05
Shallina
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no night /day cycle for DAO.
No multiplayer ever for DAO.
No toolset update for the first DAO extension.
No possibility to alter stuff bluebring in an AREA in DAO (the lightning around it i not changed wich mean having something correct is really hard to do)
Custom sound is very hard to import and work with in DAO.
I had no trouble with the particle editor in NWN2.
Both toolset seems to be abandonned.
a very small bestiary for DAO and and a very limited class system.
What DAO has that NWN2 doesn't : Better animation, Better character models. For blueprint it depend. Some are way better , and some are a lot worse. But some blueprint like castle are very impressive in DAO.
DAO toolset is very specific to DAO needs unlike NWN2 toolset. Wich mean you have less freedom. But you can still do impressive things with it wich are different from what you can do with NWN2.
The question isn't wich one is the best but rather what do you want to do ?
Depending on what you want to do one will be better suitted than the other.
No multiplayer ever for DAO.
No toolset update for the first DAO extension.
No possibility to alter stuff bluebring in an AREA in DAO (the lightning around it i not changed wich mean having something correct is really hard to do)
Custom sound is very hard to import and work with in DAO.
I had no trouble with the particle editor in NWN2.
Both toolset seems to be abandonned.
a very small bestiary for DAO and and a very limited class system.
What DAO has that NWN2 doesn't : Better animation, Better character models. For blueprint it depend. Some are way better , and some are a lot worse. But some blueprint like castle are very impressive in DAO.
DAO toolset is very specific to DAO needs unlike NWN2 toolset. Wich mean you have less freedom. But you can still do impressive things with it wich are different from what you can do with NWN2.
The question isn't wich one is the best but rather what do you want to do ?
Depending on what you want to do one will be better suitted than the other.
Modifié par Shallina, 02 septembre 2010 - 06:36 .
#33
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 08:17
Eguintir Eligard
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"I had no trouble with the particle editor in NWN2."
How is this a feature benefit of the nwn toolset? He asked me to clarify both on a fact based basis. Your personal remark isn't verifiable nor measurable or even specific. The rest of the points are very logical.
The VFX editor is broken, period. The timings are working in the vfx editor but in game all 7 or so elaborate effects you planned all go off at once the instance the effect appears. Sounds/volume are all super low and unrelated to distance. It is BROKEN.
Sorry but I had no problem with x, doesn't cut it. It really doesn't tell anyone anything. I just did. Ive done more VFX than anyone and the brokeness of said editor (or perhaps the VFX themselves) is the reason I finally got fed up with all nwn2s broken crap.
=-Off topic segway, regarding VFX-=
Why this is a critical point (example):
In vfx editing, you generally use several particle systems (simple vfx) to make one effect. For example, for a magic appearance, you might use a woosh sound (a vfx element), a stream of yellow sparkles that gather up and then rise slowly, and then a blue beam coming down once the particles dissapear. If the editor worked, this could all be done fun, quick and in 5 minutes.
But nothing works. So what ends up happening:
a script must be made, to show each of the 2 elements seperately at the specified time. The 2 elements must be made into their own stand alone vfx files and you must play the sound manually in the script. Now it is about an hours work when you count having to go into the game to ensure and then nudge the timing up or down 5 times or so. Its essentially a massive mess and 20 times the work which puts people off of vfx making altogether.
In the vfx editor however, everything works perfectly, time, volume, etc. Not in game.
How is this a feature benefit of the nwn toolset? He asked me to clarify both on a fact based basis. Your personal remark isn't verifiable nor measurable or even specific. The rest of the points are very logical.
The VFX editor is broken, period. The timings are working in the vfx editor but in game all 7 or so elaborate effects you planned all go off at once the instance the effect appears. Sounds/volume are all super low and unrelated to distance. It is BROKEN.
Sorry but I had no problem with x, doesn't cut it. It really doesn't tell anyone anything. I just did. Ive done more VFX than anyone and the brokeness of said editor (or perhaps the VFX themselves) is the reason I finally got fed up with all nwn2s broken crap.
=-Off topic segway, regarding VFX-=
Why this is a critical point (example):
In vfx editing, you generally use several particle systems (simple vfx) to make one effect. For example, for a magic appearance, you might use a woosh sound (a vfx element), a stream of yellow sparkles that gather up and then rise slowly, and then a blue beam coming down once the particles dissapear. If the editor worked, this could all be done fun, quick and in 5 minutes.
But nothing works. So what ends up happening:
a script must be made, to show each of the 2 elements seperately at the specified time. The 2 elements must be made into their own stand alone vfx files and you must play the sound manually in the script. Now it is about an hours work when you count having to go into the game to ensure and then nudge the timing up or down 5 times or so. Its essentially a massive mess and 20 times the work which puts people off of vfx making altogether.
In the vfx editor however, everything works perfectly, time, volume, etc. Not in game.
Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 02 septembre 2010 - 08:24 .
#34
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 09:03
MokahTGS
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I think it really does come down to preference, in builder terms. NWN2 has bugs, and features that DA does not have. DA has bugs, and features that NWN2 does not have.
As far as audience, NWN2 does have a builder community and a player community. It isn't dead, gone, or missing. DA has a builder community and a player community. It isn't dead, gone, or missing either.
There are many smaller differences between the two games, but there are some really huge ones that should be noted:
Multiplayer - For many this is very important. NWN2 is the only choice. DA will not have multiplayer.
Creature Inventory - NWN2 has a very large number of creatures, NPCs, and models to choose from. DA is very limited for creatures, and it doesn't look like the community is able to do much to fix that. This isn't a bad thing if you are building in the DA lore. A larger creature cache allows for many more stories and many more encounters.
DA does have a very strong ability for cutscenes, with animations and VFXs, and scritping to handle both. NWN2 is lacking in this.
Both toolsets are different than NWN, but I believe that the NWN2 toolset is easier to use, while still allowing the builder to produce a professional looking product.
It's all opinion really, but until there is something better, I'm sticking with NWN2.
As far as audience, NWN2 does have a builder community and a player community. It isn't dead, gone, or missing. DA has a builder community and a player community. It isn't dead, gone, or missing either.
There are many smaller differences between the two games, but there are some really huge ones that should be noted:
Multiplayer - For many this is very important. NWN2 is the only choice. DA will not have multiplayer.
Creature Inventory - NWN2 has a very large number of creatures, NPCs, and models to choose from. DA is very limited for creatures, and it doesn't look like the community is able to do much to fix that. This isn't a bad thing if you are building in the DA lore. A larger creature cache allows for many more stories and many more encounters.
DA does have a very strong ability for cutscenes, with animations and VFXs, and scritping to handle both. NWN2 is lacking in this.
Both toolsets are different than NWN, but I believe that the NWN2 toolset is easier to use, while still allowing the builder to produce a professional looking product.
It's all opinion really, but until there is something better, I'm sticking with NWN2.
Modifié par MokahTGS, 02 septembre 2010 - 09:04 .
#35
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 09:04
Shallina
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Obsidian create their effect with the VFX editor, All spel effect in NWN2 are created with it. So it's possible to work with it, beceause poeple got result.
I altered some VFX with success. And you can even download custom VFX for existing spell on the vault. You can do things with the VFX editor. Poeple have done it. Perhaps not the easiest thing in NWN2, but it can be worked with.
But seriously VFX are really one of the last thing to do if you are making a mod on your own if you want to finish it one day.
Area building and scripting with the existing element is trully more than enought for a small team or a single person if they want to ever finish something correct.
The big secret is to do what you want to do.
Wanna do a mod ? Then make a mod with the custom stuff available and the default stuff.
If you do a mod + custom stuff by yourself for it you'll nevers accomplish anithing. That's way to much for a single person and this whatever the toolset you are using. It's really important to stay focused on your task.
Creating custom stuff, and making a mod are 2 very different beast. Beeing good in one of those 2 things is already a lot of work and dedication. Making both, well it's not impossible but that's for sure on an other level of investissment.
I altered some VFX with success. And you can even download custom VFX for existing spell on the vault. You can do things with the VFX editor. Poeple have done it. Perhaps not the easiest thing in NWN2, but it can be worked with.
But seriously VFX are really one of the last thing to do if you are making a mod on your own if you want to finish it one day.
Area building and scripting with the existing element is trully more than enought for a small team or a single person if they want to ever finish something correct.
The big secret is to do what you want to do.
Wanna do a mod ? Then make a mod with the custom stuff available and the default stuff.
If you do a mod + custom stuff by yourself for it you'll nevers accomplish anithing. That's way to much for a single person and this whatever the toolset you are using. It's really important to stay focused on your task.
Creating custom stuff, and making a mod are 2 very different beast. Beeing good in one of those 2 things is already a lot of work and dedication. Making both, well it's not impossible but that's for sure on an other level of investissment.
Modifié par Shallina, 02 septembre 2010 - 09:09 .
#36
Guest_ElfinMad_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 09:08
Guest_ElfinMad_*
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I haven't played DA so can't compare it to NWN2 but from what I see, both toolsets are complex with pros and cons for each. For me it has taken me so long to get to know the NWN2 toolset that it is unlikely that I would switch and be back at square 1 having to invest the time to learn the DA toolset.
I agree with what Semper said, if you like DA lore then build for that in DA, if you prefer D&D lore or a custom world then go for NWN2.
I've read (LeeMer mentioned it too) that DA2 will not have a toolset and it is undecided whether the current toolset will be updated to add new functionality/resources to make it compatible. This is a bit of a blow for those claiming that there will be a larger audience for DA mods if that audience moves to DA2 and does not look back.
I agree with what Semper said, if you like DA lore then build for that in DA, if you prefer D&D lore or a custom world then go for NWN2.
I've read (LeeMer mentioned it too) that DA2 will not have a toolset and it is undecided whether the current toolset will be updated to add new functionality/resources to make it compatible. This is a bit of a blow for those claiming that there will be a larger audience for DA mods if that audience moves to DA2 and does not look back.
#37
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 09:59
Hellfire_RWS
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ElfinMad wrote...
This is a bit of a blow for those claiming that there will be a larger audience for DA mods if that audience moves to DA2 and does not look back.
This begs the question.What size audiance makes it worth it? Does a module maker really set out and think.. man I need 5 thousand people to play my mdoule and give me feedback before its worth my time?
How many is enough? 10, 100, 1000, 10,000?
Legacy of the White Plume Mountains was realease what.. 3 days ago? It has approax 70 downloads.
Without trying to determin how many are duplicate downloads or some other figure we can't know, lets take 70 at face value.
Is 70 not enough?
Baron and I make a lot of Custom Content, and we always like to see people use what we make. At the core though is the fact we want to make it. For us the most fun is in the creation not the download count.
#38
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 10:09
Eguintir Eligard
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Well since you asked, no 70 is not enough. There were games out in the early 90s that allowed custom D&D modding and I never used it because I deemd it stupid to make a game for years that only I can play (there was no internet and no one i know played games). If I can get it out to an audience things are different.
The reason I never did a mod in nwn1 is because I didnt know there was a vault and a community to play it, I thought it was for your friends only.
NWN2 came out I discovered the audience.
The fun sure as h*ll is not in the creation for me, and if you take a look at the other thread here others agree and fight burnout repeatedly.
I'll throw out a number that would satisfy me: 5000.
Apparently clearing 1000 is still reasonable these days, but the days of tens of 1000s 3 years ago seem a lot better. Given my campaign time of about 15 to 20 hours, having only a few hundred people play wouldn't even balance out the the time I put in vs their combined play times.
The reason I never did a mod in nwn1 is because I didnt know there was a vault and a community to play it, I thought it was for your friends only.
NWN2 came out I discovered the audience.
The fun sure as h*ll is not in the creation for me, and if you take a look at the other thread here others agree and fight burnout repeatedly.
I'll throw out a number that would satisfy me: 5000.
Apparently clearing 1000 is still reasonable these days, but the days of tens of 1000s 3 years ago seem a lot better. Given my campaign time of about 15 to 20 hours, having only a few hundred people play wouldn't even balance out the the time I put in vs their combined play times.
Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 02 septembre 2010 - 10:11 .
#39
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 10:26
painofdungeoneternal
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DA2 is/was made with the DA toolset, so i am not sure why it does not have a toolset.
I think you should really look at the vault, read the forums, and also look at who you are modding with. One of the biggest strengths NWN2 has is it's community which is small, but is helpful, and i can guarantee you that they will be here for a long while. We've also done some pretty amazing things, recreating the skeletons for doing new animations for example ( look for swimming on the vault ), and the nwnx folks have programs which modify both the game you play and the server to add new features.
DA, well it's got a lot more ego's running around, and a lot of people paying attention to it primarily due to it being the next new thing and a lot of marketing. If NWN2 ever had that sort of marketing we'd be a much bigger community, the folks who are still with nwn2 really love this game.
As for why you do it, with all the time invested 5000 people is not worth it, you better do it because you like learning things and being creative for just 1 person, namely yourself. Compared to other games like WoW the number of folks in NWN1, NWN2 and DA combined is just not worth counting.
I think you should really look at the vault, read the forums, and also look at who you are modding with. One of the biggest strengths NWN2 has is it's community which is small, but is helpful, and i can guarantee you that they will be here for a long while. We've also done some pretty amazing things, recreating the skeletons for doing new animations for example ( look for swimming on the vault ), and the nwnx folks have programs which modify both the game you play and the server to add new features.
DA, well it's got a lot more ego's running around, and a lot of people paying attention to it primarily due to it being the next new thing and a lot of marketing. If NWN2 ever had that sort of marketing we'd be a much bigger community, the folks who are still with nwn2 really love this game.
As for why you do it, with all the time invested 5000 people is not worth it, you better do it because you like learning things and being creative for just 1 person, namely yourself. Compared to other games like WoW the number of folks in NWN1, NWN2 and DA combined is just not worth counting.
#40
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 10:33
Shallina
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Unfortunatly DA beeing single player only, it will nevers take off like NWN1 or NWN2. This is a deadly blow against that game 
Also even if DA got better animation the overall combat system and class system is really poor next NWN2.
Are you sure DA2 is made with DA toolset ? The way they are doing it I thought they took Mass Effect tech to do it.
DAO is a really cool and good single player game, but it's not a good community game. It's too limited for it.
Also even if DA got better animation the overall combat system and class system is really poor next NWN2.
Are you sure DA2 is made with DA toolset ? The way they are doing it I thought they took Mass Effect tech to do it.
DAO is a really cool and good single player game, but it's not a good community game. It's too limited for it.
Modifié par Shallina, 02 septembre 2010 - 10:40 .
#41
Guest_ElfinMad_*
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 10:49
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painofdungeoneternal wrote...
DA2 is/was made with the DA toolset, so i am not sure why it does not have a toolset.
True, but from what I have gathered (and I don't follow it too closely so I could be totally wrong), DA2 is being created by Bioware with a modified/updated toolset that will not ship with the game and that it is undecided whether they will ever make the new toolset version available to the community.
As for how many downloads makes it worth it. Well, the more the better, the thought of others playing the game I create is very appealing. However, for me its more that I enjoy making a module as a creative outlet. I like to let my imagination run wild. I like to create a unique area out of a blank, flat grassy surface. I like the problem solving and logic of scripting. And I like to write colourful dialogue and to tell a story.
If I did not enjoy these things then I would never spend countless hours in the toolset only to receive a "Hi, I played your mod. Thanks!" at the end of it all.
#42
Posté 02 septembre 2010 - 11:27
Eguintir Eligard
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This is kinda the seed behind many of the bugs in nwn2 and doa. They were sold as a game first, and threw the toolset in, half assed though it was. In NWN 1 the whole marketing thing was the toolset, and most people in turn found the campaign sucked pretty bad. But the toolset is obviously very stable.
I actually distinctly recall on buying nwn1 that it was a TOOLSET, with a pre built campaign included. And it certainly felt like just that, a sample campaign with light cinematics.
So it does not surprise me DA2 would can the toolset altogether if they are going to make it so buggy that the general public can't use it anyway. It just shows 2 differing focuses.
I actually distinctly recall on buying nwn1 that it was a TOOLSET, with a pre built campaign included. And it certainly felt like just that, a sample campaign with light cinematics.
So it does not surprise me DA2 would can the toolset altogether if they are going to make it so buggy that the general public can't use it anyway. It just shows 2 differing focuses.
Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 03 septembre 2010 - 12:53 .
#43
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 03:14
MokahTGS
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Eguintir Eligard wrote...
This is kinda the seed behind many of the bugs in nwn2 and doa. They were sold as a game first, and threw the toolset in, half assed though it was. In NWN 1 the whole marketing thing was the toolset, and most people in turn found the campaign sucked pretty bad. But the toolset is obviously very stable.
I actually distinctly recall on buying nwn1 that it was a TOOLSET, with a pre built campaign included. And it certainly felt like just that, a sample campaign with light cinematics.
So it does not surprise me DA2 would can the toolset altogether if they are going to make it so buggy that the general public can't use it anyway. It just shows 2 differing focuses.
I remember the early days of the NWN toolset, and it was not stable and not bug free. Only after HotU did the toolset and the game really come into it's own. There were patch after patch of bug fixes, re-releases of bug fixes because the last one broke everything...and so on.
Bioware stated (as they have always stated) that their goal for NWN was a solid single player game...if anything it was the multiplayer and DM client that got a bit of the shaft. There were numerous patches to fix the DM client long after release. NWN was certainly not a toolset first sort of game.
#44
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 04:16
Eguintir Eligard
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Patch after patch of bugfixes that actually fixed it. When's the last time any patch fixed anything in nwn2? All their patches focused on the playable game fixes. And even then all they did was make it worse, as they skipped the whole "fixes to fix the fix that broke things" step. As it is I and about half the people I talk to can't even use the keyboard to play the game.
#45
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 05:31
Zedicius
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Eguintir Eligard wrote...
Patch after patch of bugfixes that actually fixed it. When's the last time any patch fixed anything in nwn2? All their patches focused on the playable game fixes. And even then all they did was make it worse, as they skipped the whole "fixes to fix the fix that broke things" step. As it is I and about half the people I talk to can't even use the keyboard to play the game.
This is utter bog****e. You're acting as if nothing has ever been done on the nwn2 toolset. Memory leaks, broken toolset functions specifically for multiplayer and PWs have been fixed. Hell, new ones have even been added because so many people requested them. Creatures have been added with patches. Memory leaks have been fixed with patches. The friggin auto downloader has been added with patches.
When a patch did break something, a hotfix was available a few days later.
Obsidian did make an effort and a 1.24 patch was in the making before the whole lawsuit fiasco. As far as I know, people asked and Obsidian listened. From what I read that is far more then what will ever happen with the DA toolset.
Don't even get me started on custom content. Nwn2 has monsters. What does DA have? Nude mods. Whoopie.
Modifié par Zedicius, 03 septembre 2010 - 05:42 .
#46
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 06:53
Shallina
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Well since DAO doesn't have half of the feature of NWN2, it's difficult to say that NWN2 is dated and old next to DAO.
DAO cannot replace NWN1 or NWN2. It's not an evolution, to many things are missing.
But you can still do some cool stuff with it.
Also, I had a lot of trouble with the NWN2 tolset, I was blamming it, and put in place a save system for my work in order to avoid loosing anything with an external hard drive.
But in truth it was a cluster of my hard drive that was dead. with a new hard drive, I haven't got any real problem with NWN2 toolset.
Poeple should stop to blame other for their own shortcomming. NWN2 toolset nowadays is a very good product that hold itself very well next to a professional product. I actually got less problem with NWN2 toolset for modding than at work with ECLIPSE while it is one of the best environement for working.
DAO is made to run on 512 meg hard ware while NWN2 has dynamique lightning and other thing like that that they cut in DAO for the XBOX. It's not for the same hardware.
And Aside from the polycount of character you can have a better result in NWN2 for landscape and lighting than whatever you can do with DAO.
DAO was made so it could run on the XBOX wich have only 512 meg of RAM. If you dig a little you'll see cut and limitation everywhere in order to achieve it. And when you play in game it shows. Of course if you have a little hardware you cannot push NWN2 option to the max so you might not be aware of it.
DAO cannot replace NWN1 or NWN2. It's not an evolution, to many things are missing.
But you can still do some cool stuff with it.
Also, I had a lot of trouble with the NWN2 tolset, I was blamming it, and put in place a save system for my work in order to avoid loosing anything with an external hard drive.
But in truth it was a cluster of my hard drive that was dead. with a new hard drive, I haven't got any real problem with NWN2 toolset.
Poeple should stop to blame other for their own shortcomming. NWN2 toolset nowadays is a very good product that hold itself very well next to a professional product. I actually got less problem with NWN2 toolset for modding than at work with ECLIPSE while it is one of the best environement for working.
DAO is made to run on 512 meg hard ware while NWN2 has dynamique lightning and other thing like that that they cut in DAO for the XBOX. It's not for the same hardware.
And Aside from the polycount of character you can have a better result in NWN2 for landscape and lighting than whatever you can do with DAO.
DAO was made so it could run on the XBOX wich have only 512 meg of RAM. If you dig a little you'll see cut and limitation everywhere in order to achieve it. And when you play in game it shows. Of course if you have a little hardware you cannot push NWN2 option to the max so you might not be aware of it.
Modifié par Shallina, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:55 .
#47
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 08:27
The Fred
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As far as the bugginess of NWN2 goes, there are loads of problems with it, not just the bugs but the fact that to mod something quite simple you often have to jump through so many hoops and find work-arounds to make your work-arounds work that it often isn't worth it.
However, what you *can* do with it is so good that it's still great to mod with. I don't know how Dragon Age compares, but to do a non-Dragon Age sort of mod in Dragon Age rather tha NWN2 would require its toolset not just to be at least as good as NWN2's but probably significantly better, because NWN2 is geared up to make a whole variety of stuff - I don't think DA is really designed for that. In fact, it almost seemed like they only made the game have a toolset because they knew how much their NWN fans would hate them for not doing, and because without multiplayer OR a toolset the game would run out of community before they could make DA2.
However, what you *can* do with it is so good that it's still great to mod with. I don't know how Dragon Age compares, but to do a non-Dragon Age sort of mod in Dragon Age rather tha NWN2 would require its toolset not just to be at least as good as NWN2's but probably significantly better, because NWN2 is geared up to make a whole variety of stuff - I don't think DA is really designed for that. In fact, it almost seemed like they only made the game have a toolset because they knew how much their NWN fans would hate them for not doing, and because without multiplayer OR a toolset the game would run out of community before they could make DA2.
#48
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 12:53
dunniteowl
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Apologies, mis-posted while playing with my new Wacom Pen and Touch. It and all related posts have been excised. I was damn sure I was in the Motivation thread. Sorry. Then again, the posts, when deleted, either didn't delete the first 2 times, or sent me back to the DA Toolset Forums, or popped me back to the NWN2 Toolset forums, so it might have been the forums at fault in the first place. They know I'm not happy with them.
Once again, sorry for the intrusion.
dno
Once again, sorry for the intrusion.
dno
#49
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 02:07
Eguintir Eligard
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As far as the bugginess of NWN2 goes, there are loads of problems with it, not just the bugs but the fact that to mod something quite simple you often have to jump through so many hoops and find work-arounds to make your work-arounds work that it often isn't worth it.
This is exactly what Im talking about.
And zed that is not bull. We have had an actual thread of broken scripts listed, always have. They never fixed ANY of them and those are simple since they are only scripts, nothing deep and invasive. The appearance wizard has never worked and never had any attempt on it. People say they dont because the community can, and they focus on bigger stuff. What then, what did they fix? The VFX output? garbage. Appearance wizard? good way to lose your module.
Animation tab in the conversation editor? Winning a lottery if it actually animates anything. Autosave? crashes you.
Module mode? Good way to lose everything all in 1 shot. BASIC movement in the game: I can't even move around
using the keys because my players jerks all over the screen every time he stops to turn. They had 3 pathces to try
and fix that (they CAUSED it with a "fix")and half the people I know just left the community because its a very core problem that totally ruins the
game play. And they didnt even try to fix it. But they always fix their bad fixes with a hotfix a week later right?
Multi select editing didnt even work until the final patches so people are wasting time doing 1 tile at a time and its settings (in a 20x20 area thats 400 tiles) rather than only doing 8 or 10 tiles to accomplish this work. While they are "fixing"the network play problem they totally ruined single player now as you ghost all over the place and now all campaigns ever made are unreliable because you can actually miss triggers which the entire game system is built on. They released 3 patches since and neither recovered this error. Because they don't give a crap and break more than they fix. The toolset is functionally unsound from head to toe. Even having an area editor open to this day for more than 10 minutes is a good reason for the toolset to randomly crash. We tell everyone to save often because we are so used to this ineptitude.
Now list for me DA's bugs if you dont mind Dec?
That said, the da toolset is not a saviour in terms of bug relief. I hoped it would be based on biowares quality history. It is now clear that EA shares the mindset of rushing to the next game with minimal support. So my main interest for using it is nullified.
Agree also it isn't direct evolution; the graphics will look better as will the realism and animation. But you are cornered into a very limited model range, character range, and with no ability to alter the models in-toolset.
My other advantage I listed was the audience size. I may renege on that now. And you mentioned all they have is nude
mods:
See my last two blog posts. Its ironic because they speak of the DA community and the last one speaks of the trigger issue with the nwn toolset/game, and offers a workaround. Quantity definitely doesnt always win in this case.
But as Fred said about nwn2, just because you can actually workaround something doesnt mean you want to. When your whole project becomes one big work around it can hardly be called a functional toolset.
I am tempted to call NWN2 and DA:O a wash, trade off wise. But I won't brook defensive statements for one over the other that are personal claims and not example based, and telling me nwn2 made conscientious fixes for the toolset is so far from the truth.
http://eguintir.blogspot.com/
This is exactly what Im talking about.
And zed that is not bull. We have had an actual thread of broken scripts listed, always have. They never fixed ANY of them and those are simple since they are only scripts, nothing deep and invasive. The appearance wizard has never worked and never had any attempt on it. People say they dont because the community can, and they focus on bigger stuff. What then, what did they fix? The VFX output? garbage. Appearance wizard? good way to lose your module.
Animation tab in the conversation editor? Winning a lottery if it actually animates anything. Autosave? crashes you.
Module mode? Good way to lose everything all in 1 shot. BASIC movement in the game: I can't even move around
using the keys because my players jerks all over the screen every time he stops to turn. They had 3 pathces to try
and fix that (they CAUSED it with a "fix")and half the people I know just left the community because its a very core problem that totally ruins the
game play. And they didnt even try to fix it. But they always fix their bad fixes with a hotfix a week later right?
Multi select editing didnt even work until the final patches so people are wasting time doing 1 tile at a time and its settings (in a 20x20 area thats 400 tiles) rather than only doing 8 or 10 tiles to accomplish this work. While they are "fixing"the network play problem they totally ruined single player now as you ghost all over the place and now all campaigns ever made are unreliable because you can actually miss triggers which the entire game system is built on. They released 3 patches since and neither recovered this error. Because they don't give a crap and break more than they fix. The toolset is functionally unsound from head to toe. Even having an area editor open to this day for more than 10 minutes is a good reason for the toolset to randomly crash. We tell everyone to save often because we are so used to this ineptitude.
Now list for me DA's bugs if you dont mind Dec?
That said, the da toolset is not a saviour in terms of bug relief. I hoped it would be based on biowares quality history. It is now clear that EA shares the mindset of rushing to the next game with minimal support. So my main interest for using it is nullified.
Agree also it isn't direct evolution; the graphics will look better as will the realism and animation. But you are cornered into a very limited model range, character range, and with no ability to alter the models in-toolset.
My other advantage I listed was the audience size. I may renege on that now. And you mentioned all they have is nude
mods:
See my last two blog posts. Its ironic because they speak of the DA community and the last one speaks of the trigger issue with the nwn toolset/game, and offers a workaround. Quantity definitely doesnt always win in this case.
But as Fred said about nwn2, just because you can actually workaround something doesnt mean you want to. When your whole project becomes one big work around it can hardly be called a functional toolset.
I am tempted to call NWN2 and DA:O a wash, trade off wise. But I won't brook defensive statements for one over the other that are personal claims and not example based, and telling me nwn2 made conscientious fixes for the toolset is so far from the truth.
http://eguintir.blogspot.com/
Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:24 .
#50
Posté 03 septembre 2010 - 02:55
-Semper-
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Eguintir Eligard wrote...
Now list for me DA's bugs if you dont mind Dec?
as far as you are talking about the toolset, just take a look here.
both toolsets suffer from bugs but at least with the nwn2 toolset you are able to create the same graphical outcome obsidian published. the da:o toolset is based upon a different lighting engine which is horribly bugged - right now you are not able to produce top notch looking levels because of this mess. also other game features are not working correctly, like placing and firing sounds within cutscenes, using custom music, fading music, completely bugged m2da ranges, reflections that are not working and so on.
if you are talking about bugs the core game functionality suffers from... well, i've not enough time to list them all
Eguintir Eligard wrote...
nwn2 made conscientious fixes for the toolset is so far from the truth.
it's also the truth that nwn2's toolset recieved patches. until now bioware delivered not a single patch (besides the tiny fix for the database) for their toolset. on top with the latest 1.04 patch a month ago they broke the script compiler so scripters lost all the new functions, therefore all their scripts are more or less unusable to date.
Modifié par -Semper-, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:56 .
