205 réponses à ce sujet

[Eguintir Eligard]

That's what I wanted, a list from someone who actually knows both toolsets.

Some of these I had heard of, and now I can definitely stand by my statement that DA does not offer bug relief. I don't see either toolset as a good option anymore, so for someone who plans to mod in the future, you can probably say half a dozen and 6, agreed?

Im not sure why you said patches is a "truth". I was there. The patches are a strike against it. I am 100% sincere when I say for me as a player the game worked better at 1.1 version. Toolset... probably a wash now, but the in game trigger bug means no matter how hard I try my campaign is prone to random failures, so I cannot deliver anything of professional polish calibre.

I have to include a blanket warning: Hey save your game all the time; you might miss a conversation or battle. You won't know what it is or that you even missed it, but hopefully its not game breaking. Good luck guys!

DA does not sound any better: one game you cant do the visuals like they do, but the other your game is impossible to make failure-free. Is this really all we have to choose from?

EDIT: Nevermind my blog the 2nd post has nothing to do with it. Here

http://social.biowar...4/index/4492793


If you stop and read that, and think how much of your game is based on triggers, its a real kick in the face. I wouldnt have did my campaign knowing this was the outcome. No one even has a suggestion to fix it. This is the state the "patches" left the toolset in. Its retro-active; it happens in existing previously perfect campaigns and the OC.

That said I think anyone who wants to mod now has a clearer picture; believe it or not I do not discourage people from using this toolset. I am just putting this out there, because nobody told me so I could make an informed decision before embarking on a 2 + year project. Information  is what the internet is about right.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[-Semper-]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

When NWN2 and motb as out, I had zero issue playing, and the toolset was buggy with half the features ueless. At the end, I can not play the game except using exclusively mouse clicks to move

i hate playing with the keyboard to move around so i can't say something about that but...

the OC and other peoples mods fail to fire scenes because my party floats over triggers ocassionally

i never ran into those bugs. right now i play nwn2 with both expansions and all the patches installed the only bug which caught me was the bug with the book and the imp at jerro's crib. the warping thing was always there but it occurs rarely - at least for me. but yes, you are right: it is a horrible bug and needs to be patched!

DA does not sound any better: one game you cant do the visuals like they do

it's not just the visuals. other parts of the engine don't work with the toolset too. it's like that this piece of software was never designed to ever run without the third party plugins they used to export origins.
guess we all have to quit using rpg editors

[Eguintir Eligard]

I would

Btw you do run into that bug you just dont know it. Would you honestly realize if one of the hundreds of conversations were missed in the OC? Of course not. It took me forever to recognize it was happening. All I can do is pray my mamoth 3 year campaign (out this month) doesnt do it on a critical one.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Shallina]

A simple exemple of NWN2 problem vs DAO solution :

Light. In NWN2, light loose their tag when you load from a save game. Wich mean you can't use a GetObjectByTag() in order to get them you can't use tag, wich mean you have to use work around that aren't simple.

In DAO, you can't do a single thing with light. Problem solved.

Wich one you prefer ? able to do what you want with a little more work beceause of a little bug ? (NWN2)

Or nevers able to  do anything with it beceause the feature doesn't exist ?(DAO)

You can pest it's unacceptable that this bug exist in the first place or that the feature doesn't exist in the second.

But if you want to mod in a 3d environnement with party setting what software are you going to use if you ditch those 2 ?

Even if it's not perfect it's still a lot better than doing everything from scratch for someone that just wanna mod and not a full game.

Modifié par Shallina, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[-Semper-]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

Btw you do run into that bug you just dont know it.

as i said this issue appears only 1-2 times in 3h of gameplay warping me 5m back in position. i am not using the keyboard at all besides pausing the game, perhaps this helps. dunno^^

Modifié par -Semper-, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:45 .

[kamalpoe]

I think all this debate shows that NWN2 is still viable compared to the newer toolset of DAO. Otherwise we'd all be in agreement.

[Eguintir Eligard]

This isnt a great place to ask anyway. What do you think a forum for nwn2 modders will say about which toolset is better? Most of the comments are from people with exposure to only one of the toolsets.



But I agree, DA is not more viable as a toolset.

[Shallina]

Actually they are both viable as toolset. You can get things done with the both of them.

It's just that the things you can do with them isn't the same.

And none of them are "magiware" that will do everything on their onw.


Software that can do everything linked to a creation on their own aren't possible today. It can only apply an algorythm.

A software can't think, and can't produce an idea for a solution out of nowhere. That's still a skill that only only sentient beeing pocess, and on earth so far humans are the best at it.

For a creation process you'll always have to do things by yourself.

If you want a functionnality that they didn't use or need (Bioware or Obsidian), you'll have to do it yourself or find it somewhere else.

Also the fact than some script are bugged is not linked to the toolset. With DAO, or NWN2 or NWN if you have a problem with a script that doesn't behave as you want, the toolset in each case gives you the tools to correct it.

Modifié par Shallina, 03 septembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[The Fred]

Shallina wrote...
That's still a skill that only only sentient beeing pocess, and on earth so far humans are the best at it.

Well... we think we're the best at it...

[Eguintir Eligard]

Shalina you seem intent on saying everything is broken in nwn2 but you can fix it. Thats a huge bit of misinformation you are spreading. For example a core function to check skill ranks was broken until soz. There was no fix, scripting that because its internal workings are hidden: what we can see and modify only goes so deep. Internal mechanisms can not be fixed. And what script is going to make ghost floating stop, or any number of the above toolset/gameplay issues? You talk about the creation process, but explain how we have to fix all this broken functions.


By the time you are done all your work around there isn't much time to do a module now is there?

And what kind of actual usability does a toolset have if you just have to rewrite it all anyway?


Both of these toolsets would be considered a complete joke as stand alone if this was anything but the gaming industry. How do you think MS word would fare if 30% of its features were broken and it crashed every 10 mins? There is a lack of quality on both parts; neither is viable for me nor the 90% of our community that gave up modding here 2 years ago. RWS made half the content we do have; and for that I send my thanks. The model content is really the only thing that reliably works. My final thought is, before you decide to set out on a major project
that will take a noticeable portion of your life to complete, think about the product you are using, and what impact
it will have on your time and your output. There's an expression in the home theater industry called "garbage in, garbage out". I am happy with the visuals, music and atmosphere of my 3 year campaign effort. But the whole damn thing feels like
a house of cards. I even avoided doing half the things the toolset said it could do because it couldn't and it still feels
that way. I would never encourage anyone to go do the same thing. Think your project will take 2 months? It probably would, in a working set. Enjoyable pass time. Care to fix and debug all the crap that goes wrong that should be working for an additional 8 months? Not so fun sounding anymore, is it? My campaign would have been done at most,
in 8 or 9 months if the toolset had been in large, doing as it claims. It doesnt. Everyone wants to create, well I doubt
I spent more than 1 month total of actual creation (areas, creatures, dialogue).

If you are going to use either of these sets
anyway, do it in very small chunks with foreseeable ends and chapterize them. The bigger your project gets the
more exponential the errors.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 03 septembre 2010 - 08:28 .

[Shallina]

I think you are disgrunted beceause you were confronted to the reality of sofware creation.

Personnally I don't have crash every 30 second, the toolset is very good for stability. If you got a crash every 30 second it's beceause :

1 - you have a hardware problem
or
2 - you have a sofware problem
or
3 - you are doing something out of limit. There is a number max of blueprint you can use in a single area and in the toolset. It's related to the amount of Memory of your PC. If you exceed that limit you are going to crash, but that's not the only limit there are others, and they aren't documented, but for a 50 euro product it's difficult to have a full doc about those problem since even products that cost many thousands euros don't have those doc.
or
4 - you have a conflict with reference somewhere

NWN2 isn't a joke at all, it's clearly a professional tool for it's quality. I have worked with many tools for programing, and NWN2 toolset is an ok product.

You can get your job done with it without to much worry.

Also you have to work within the limit of your tool when you define your project.

NWN1, NWN2, and DAO have all of them different limit. Depending on what you want to do you'll have to choose the one that can deliver the things closest to what you need, since those toolset aren't made for your campaign but for the original dev campaign.
You have to work within the scope of what the toolset can deliver.

NWN2 toolset wasn't made for your campaign and your idea. It was made for NWN2 official campaign and to allow poeple to do module in that environnement. If you branch to much from it it won't be enought and you'll have to elvove it, or adapt your content or compromise.

So far for the Baldur's gate Remake for Area making, and Scripting need I have seen no limit, We were able to do all what we wanted for now. When we choose to do something differently it beceause we thought we had to do it in a different way to do it better, or beceause with the 3D environement instead of the 2D it had to be evolved.

NWN2 toolset, DAO toolset and NWN1 toolset have all for sure a lot of shortcomming. But they are still very powerfull and allow you to do a lot of thing. Perhaps not everything that you would have dreamt on, but no games so far can live to the expectation of my dream personnaly.

You have to know the limit of the possible, and stay within those walls.

Blue pills ? or red pills ? Welcome to reality.

Also when you compare MSOFFICE to NWN2TOOLSET, let me tell you that they aren't sold for the same price

IF NWN2 was sold for that price and sold as many copy as MSOFFICE, I am sure it would have fewer bug.

Modifié par Shallina, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Why do you keep talking to me as if I don't know what to do with/expect from the toolset? I have a 20 hour campaign in beta pre test. I've used it for 3 years, pretty much continously. What have you done with it?
I have a degree in computer programming. I know what goes into a project. I know what went into mine.
And I'm not "dreaming"of any capabilities it doesn't have. The things it supposed to have DO NOT work. That is the
point here, Im not sure you even read what is being said or maybe you don't understand it because you keep saying
things that dont even make sense.

Your opinion is valid as any, but as someone starting out I'd rather hear from people with the most experience and widest uses of the toolset to get the best picture of what its actually like.

If you want to keep beating this drum of yours fine, but stop telling people that scripting is a fix all because it fixes nothing of the problems in the toolset, it only fixes scripts.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:25 .

[Shallina]

Beeing able to fix broken script is better than beeing able to fix nothing

For your information I have worked on around 40 hours of gaming ready with that toolset and so far we have encountered no limitation for what we wanted to do.

So when you say that it is not a viable solution, you are clearly wrong, and proved wrong by all the mod you can find on the net and the PW you can play.

If it wasn't viable, none of them would work.

IF you can't do what you want with it, it is beceause :

You want to do to much with it, or beceause you are not good enought with it.

If you ask to much of it, you can try DAO, it does different things, perhaps your need will be covered.
or
If you are not good enought, well know that we nevers stop to learn and discovers new things all the time . What you are not able to do today, perhaps you will be able to do it tomorow.

Modifié par Shallina, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:34 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Unviable is only my personal view yes.
Its ironic on the eve of my campaign release but I stand by it.

Shallina tell me since I'm not good enough at it, who is good enough to fix the issue listed in this thread?
Are you going to make my animation tabs work? The appearance wizard? The VFX?

Send me a link when you have them, I'll give you a 10 on the vault.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:36 .

[ladydesire]

The way I see it, if you want a game with the features of Dragon Age's toolset, use that toolset. If you want Neverwinter Nights or Neverwinter Nights 2, use them. I personally think that the Dragon Age Toolset (not the Dragon Age: Origins toolset) has been designed the way the community wanted it to be as much as what Bioware wanted it to be. From what I've been reading from Mike Laidlaw, the Dragon Age 2 team has been using the same toolset (with slight modifications) as what was used for Dragon Age: Origins, so all that will really be needed to mod DA2 will be an updated toolset and the database data for DA2.

[Shallina]

That what I'am telling you, you have to work within the limit or to elvove the toolset yourself if the evolution you need doesn't exist. If you need a VFX editor that does very different VFX than what NWN2 was, you'll have to do your own plugin if nothing exist.
It's possible.

The toolset wasn't made for your needs, but for the original dev needs. And if you branch to much from it, be ready for a lot of more work if you persist in something that is on an other road. The toolset can accept plugin. With that feature you can have a lot of custom feature. But you need to dev them from scractch if nothing exist about them.

Nothing new here, it has always been like this for all the sofware ever created.

Modifié par Shallina, 03 septembre 2010 - 09:42 .

[AmstradHero]

Hrm, I think I have to laugh in amusement here. I recall getting involved in discussions from people insisting NWN1 and its toolset were superior to NWN2 on the old BioBoards. Occasionally someone would step up and ask the NWN1 forums "Should I migrate to NWN2?" and would be met with a wave of hatred against NWN2 for being terrible, too complicated, not supporting multiplayer, not having custom content, etc, etc. I remember fighting the NWN2 naysayers back then saying "It's more complicated, but you can do more". 

However, I'm not here to simply wave DAO's flag, and the same arguments aren't applicable wholesale. As someone who made the switch, I can say I did it for a few reasons. These reasons aren't necessarily related to the toolset, but more my personal reasons for modding.

One, the audience. I'm of the belief than in a year or two years, DAO's player community will still be bigger than NWN2's. The number of mod teams (not simply individuals) working to create content for it will likely mean that players will stick around. And in the latest Dragon Age Podcast, it seems that BioWare will be trying to support modders and their more heavily.

Two, there's the presentation. Dragon Age simply looks better. Be it fully animated conversations, smooth cutscenes, improved graphics or any amount of other cosmetic changes that add to the cinematic appeal and increase the "professionalism" of a mod, I feel that creating what feels like a more polished product is something that is important to me.

Three, "keeping with the curve". As a modder, call me fickle, but I like to try and stay "current". This is more so I can keep up to date with ways of working and newer toolsets... it's a means of gathering experience in creating levels/stories/games for me, and working with different and newer technology helps me refine my craft in a variety of different areas.

If money and time were no object, I'd go back and finish my last NWN2 campaign, because I had what I thought were some really cool ideas for a high level campaign that would give players some "WOW!" moments. But even then, I'd still migrate to DAO after that. DAO's toolset has a slightly different workflow than NWN2's toolset, but once you adapt to that, it's great to work with.  Having now gotten used to it, the level editor alone is enough to endear me to DAO. Even with the lightmapper problems, the beauty that can be created using DAO's toolset dwarfs that which can be made in NWN2, just as NWN2 puts NWN2 to shame. As someone who loves level design, that's a big drawcard.

But DAO doesn't win the contest hands down. If you want something with a lot of depth to your combat, then you're going to want to stick with NWN2. Unfortunately for BioWare, it is a fairly stark truth that NWN2's class and combat complexity is far beyond what is possible with DAO. But, that's not surprising given how long D&D has had to refine its class system and create countless ways to construct characters using a variety ot classes, skills and feats. In addition, NWN2 has a lot more creature assets - DAO's enemy roster is lamentably small.  Even though I find NWN2's combat and interface a little clunky (but still far better than the tragedy that is NWN1), the combat is a lot more involved than DAO's.

For me, it comes down to asking a question: "What do you want to do with the toolset?" If you are a big D&D fan and like that ruleset and lore, then don't switch to DAO. You'll only find yourself hating the new combat, monster roster, class system, and possibly even the setting itself. If you want multiplayer, stick with NWN2. DAO's toolset requires dedication, and lots of it. If you've haven't tried modding before, I would probably suggest that it might be biting off a little more than most people can chew, at least if you're going the solo route. However, there are teams that are looking for modders to contribute to their cause, and that would be an excellent means to whet your modding appetite.

The reasons people mod are many and varied, and you would be best served picking the toolset that matches both your skill level and the type of product that you want to create. Only each individual modder can decide whether that is DAO or NWN2, and only after they've considered the actual strengths and weaknesses of both the modding tools and features offered by the game engines themselves.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 03 septembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[JasonNH]

I think the most important element to modding is to try and find something that is a labor of love, something you will enjoy doing. To that end, it's possible that either NWN1, NWN2, or DAO may be the better toolset choice for implementing your dream. I think the pros and cons have been covered sufficiently already, so my short answer to the OP is a qualified "yes", depending on what game play aspects are most important to you.

[ArtEChoke]

AmstradHero wrote...
One, the audience. I'm of the belief than in a year or two years, DAO's player community will still be bigger than NWN2's. The number of mod teams (not simply individuals) working to create content for it will likely mean that players will stick around. And in the latest Dragon Age Podcast, it seems that BioWare will be trying to support modders and their more heavily.

You've convinced me.

I'm going to cancel all creature creations and switch to ****** mods for DAO. That will reach the widest audience.

[AmstradHero]

*sigh* I've complained about that situation previously, but a dismissive attitude doesn't help the situation. That's why my effort goes into producing mods that are different.

[danien.grey]

AmstradHero wrote...

*sigh* I've complained about that situation previously, but a dismissive attitude doesn't help the situation. That's why my effort goes into producing mods that are different.

Oh I don't know AmstradHero, maybe we can make The Shattered War have an elf in a bikini as a poster girl...they'll all download it thinking it's yet another ****** mod, and then BAM!- be surprised with a module that has actual storytelling and epic battles!

...Yes, I like it.  It's positively nefarious!  We should do that with Alley of Murders too!

[TimelordDC]

ArtEChoke wrote...

AmstradHero wrote...
One, the audience. I'm of the belief than in a year or two years, DAO's player community will still be bigger than NWN2's. The number of mod teams (not simply individuals) working to create content for it will likely mean that players will stick around. And in the latest Dragon Age Podcast, it seems that BioWare will be trying to support modders and their more heavily.

You've convinced me.

I'm going to cancel all creature creations and switch to ****** mods for DAO. That will reach the widest audience.

Or you could do creature creations for DA:O.

[FollowTheGourd]

The projects page here started out as a huge, neglected mess; big surprise now that somebody pandered enough to get their sex mods on the front page, as if the other spam wasn't bad enough already to drive away any reasonable person from browsing the listings (e.g., sort by date created).

I'm not a huge fan of DANexus but it's the only other main site I know of (that still has updates) where you can at least have a reasonable chance of finding normal content. Even though DA lore doesn't really appeal to me at all, people still have the possibility of making interesting stories no matter the setting.

Personally, I still think the NWN2 toolset is better suited for story mods, but there really are some game bugs that make it less enjoyable to work with as have been brought up - e.g., that ghosting/rubberbanding seems to constantly happen (for me) if you use WASD to move but not if you click to move (in fact, I hadn't even noticed it for the longest time since I could only stand using the exploration camera, which lent itself to click-moving.)

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:00 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Hey Amstrad check out my blog if you dont mind. I just noticed what a dirthole the project listings is and I mentioned you in my blog entry. I'd like to have your insights.

[MokahTGS]

 

is there any point to modding in NW2 now that DA is here?

Nope...no point...move on, nothing but dead people, broken tools and ruins here...