205 réponses à ce sujet

[The Fred]

NWN2 still having things DA doesn't have is indeed in some ways like NWN1 still having things NWN2 has, or BG modding still being able to do things neither of them can (it actually can, as few too, and BG doesn't even have a toolset). The difference is that because the NWN2 toolset was a direct continuation of the NWN1 one for a game with much the same engine, a lot of the differences *are* improvements (though admittedly there are things it lost, too), whereas DA is a whole different beast. I'm not saying it's not as good, or even that it's not better (I haven't used it myself) but it *is* different, which makes - believe it or not - a difference.



Personally, as for the projects, I think all the NWN2 folks should take a greater interest in the NWN2 projects, go discuss them on their pages and stuff and click the popularity button and maybe even get them onto the "all projects" list - though I don't know if there are even 1800 active people *in* the NWN2 community to beat something like one of those DA ones on the front page... but anyway.

[kamalpoe]

Of course everyone on both sides are defensive, we've all put hundreds or thousands of hours into projects for DAO or NWN2.



To me the question is: Do you want a bigger audience that is perhaps more concerned with boobies than your mod, or a smaller but perhaps more appreciative audience?

[Shallina]

the question is more : Why DAO folks need to invest all forums to gather poeple to make mod for their games?

They seems to haven't understand that having no multiplayer is a deadly blow against the well beeing of that game. And what ever is it worth, beceause of no MP, that game will nevers grow as much as a game wich has MP for modding.

Yup MP is really important. Really really really important. Many PC gamer won't ever consider something as a game if it hasn't MP. And modder aren't from the consol pool.

Modifié par Shallina, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[ArtEChoke]

TimelordDC wrote...
Or you could do creature creations for DA:O.

Could I? DA:O picked up several very talented creature/character modelers from NWN2. I can tell you from looking at the two games that creating something for one game would not be very different than creating one for the other (importing/exporting and animation particulars).

Where is it all? I searched through models on this site, and there wasn't a single creature. The same search on DANexus turned up 3 entries - two were rescaled stock creatures, and the other was a series of re-textured creatures.

What happened here?

Lets get the elephant out of the way here:
This creature looks almost like it was done by professionals, doesn't it? Who made this one again? Oh, right.

The peculiarities of that project section aren't a mistake. It is by design. DA:O cynically relies on exploiting an embarrassing gamer stereotype to move product. Look at the marketing that lead up to it.

The guys in that project section are simply playing follow the leader - and it works. There's your bigger audience.

I'll pass, thanks.

Modifié par ArtEChoke, 04 septembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[kamalpoe]

Some things I can do in nwn2 that can't be done in DAO:

Have characters speak in a foreign language with subtitles. The DAO character limit prevents this, since the player lines are restricted to 60 characters per line. With both the foreign language and the subtitle, the player lines are effectively approx 30 characters, insufficient for anything in depth. My campaign has potentially several hours of this.

Before someone says "just have them speak common", the player is in disguise, among a group that does not speak common, and speaking common would be something that would likely get the player killed. So having the conversations not in common is polish and detail.

There are many weather and other "atmosphere" effects I've never seen done in DAO. Sandstorm, blizzards.
sandstorm
blizzard
In fact, I could show quite a number of videos of things that I've done that I've yet to see anything like in DAO in terms of areas.

DAO also unfortunately lacks a daynight cycle. You don't get a sense of passage of time. It can't do quests that rely on something like waiting for the npc to go to bed without them going to bed during daylight, or having the town be in perpetual night. Getting proper atmosphere for time related quests in a town or city just can't happen.

Skill based quests? Well, the DnD rules give NWN2 the advantage with a much larger selection of non combat skills to draw from. Lots more possibilities for these in NWN2.

The NWN2 toolset is just does more in many areas that are important to me and necessary for telling the story I want to tell. DAO has better looking combat, better cutscene tools, better animations. There are talented people working on expanding some things in DAO, but it simply lacks depth.

As people like ArtEChoke have pointed out, while it's apparently possible to do things like create new monsters, the fact that none or almost none have been done is telling. A lot of very good and productive NWN2 people went over to DAO when it came out, many of the most productive DAO people are former NWN2 people in fact. But very little has been produced by the community to expand DAO. There's some barrier there. As long as you want to work within the framework provided in terms of lore and builder resources, you can, but expanding things seems difficult, at best. For me, that's a problem. I don't wish to work in the that famework.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I found the NWN vs NWN2 argument idiotic because as was said here just now, NWN2 was an improved, expansion of the same idea. It was basically, the next generation. DA definitely does not have the same base + expansion upon it, so it is definitely not a next generation. More like a cousin who might be slightly younger than you if that makes sense.

So I wouldn't call this debate exactly like nwn1/nwn2.

Btw Shallina if you say deadly blow one more time about multiplayer it will be a record. The top mods didnt even account for multiplayer in this community. Hope that is not a deadly blow to your claim, but its reality.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 04 septembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Shallina]

The persistant World aren't MP ? They did a lot for the game you know, corrected many bug and produced many custom content that can be also used for single player mod. Actually a good part of the most impressive custom stuff for the game comes from them.

And this is something you'll never got for DAO.

A game without MP as no future on PC. It can be cool, but it will remain a one shoot. It has always been like this and won't change even for DAO wich is a really fine SP game.

NWN2 toolset was missing the lips synch plug in when released to the public beceause that software was a licensed one. It was the only major thing missing from the toolset that OBSIDIAN used to create the campaign. And now we got a community plug in that is doing it.

The missing feature of the "real DAO" toolset used for DAO campaign are bigger than that. That is a "no good thing" as well.

Modifié par Shallina, 04 septembre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Its just ironic to keep saying DA has a "death blow"when its community is many times the size of ours. If its dead because of its lack of MP what are we?

[Hellfire_RWS]

Undead

[Shallina]

Where are your mods ? and your custom content ? More consol gamer does not mean more modders

Also consol gamers won't be able to play your mod on dao.

Modifié par Shallina, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:07 .

[ladydesire]

Shallina wrote...

Where are your mods ? and your custom content ? More consol
gamer does not mean more modders

Also consol gamers won't be able to play your mod on dao.

According to Bioware, MP is not the only thing that has extended the lifespan of Neverwinter Nights (and by extension Neverwinter Night2); the single player mods for both games have had a much wider impact on those games than MP has, even though the MP community is more vocal. Mods for Dragon Age will do the same thing for it as those for the earlier games have done.

[Shallina]

Except that those single player mod where possible for many of them beceause of the work of MP modders and CC creator that worked for PW content.

Modifié par Shallina, 04 septembre 2010 - 05:34 .

[ladydesire]

Shallina wrote...

Except that those single player mod where possible for many
of them beceause of the work of MP modders and CC creator
that worked for PW content.

So you're saying that there wouldn't be so many single player mods (and thus less custom content for them) if Neverwinter Nights and Neverwinter Nights 2 were single player only? I personally doubt the amount of custom content made for a game is impacted significantly by the existence of multiplayer in the game; go look at TES Nexus and Fallout 3 Nexus if you don't believe me.

[Shallina]

all my friend are gamers.



I am the only one buying SP game.

[dunniteowl]

With all due respect Shallina, your view is not the Bigger Picture. It's a micro cosm of the picture and can only be used as a personal reference, not a general snapshot of the overall scene in it's fullness. That has to be noted and accounted for, no matter my, your or anyone else's point of view on where the longevity stems. I am not saying your point of view is incorrect. I am saying that your point of view as expressed doesn't prove the point as a whole.

Using your personal experience in a situation is all fine and good, but there's no way your own personal experience in this instance can actually represent the entire demographic model of sales, interest and dedication to the game -- any game.

We're going to have to wait a couple more years to see how DA:O is doing before anyone can say how well DA:O's community of modders will be doing. In the meantime, though, the lack of Community Models, placeables and general higher level of technical expertise required to use the toolset will hamper, in more ways than was/is true in NWN2 the DA:O community in it's struggle to gain the King of the HIll position in the arena of cRPGs w/Toolsets. (And just to show my chops in this respect, I participated in the DA:O Toolset beta. While I liked it's potential, there was too much that we were not allowed to see or have access to before release to make the investment of my somewhat limited time worthwhile, in my estimation. It definitely has a much overall higer bar to entrance than NWN1 does and it is noteably harder to use in most respects than the NWN2 toolset is and was at release.)



dunniteowl

[Shallina]

Bigger picture is that DAO is almost one year old.

Where is the CC ? where are the players mod ? Where are the toolset patch so you could use XP1 ressources ?

Nothing. SP game doesn't get as much attention as MP games for the PC crownd.

And you can't mod on console. So consol gamers ain't doing it.

Modifié par Shallina, 04 septembre 2010 - 10:32 .

[AmstradHero]

Shallina: What was released for NWN1/NWN2 after almost one year? That's right, not a whole lot. The truth is, you're pretty much spouting exactly the same two major arguments against DAO that NWN1 players were using against NWN2: Where's the custom content? MP is crippled/non-existent!

For the first point, that's a wait and see game, exactly like it was with NWN2. For the second, I'm only of the people who doesn't care about multiplayer. That's right, not one bit. For me, I'm in a game for the story, and a PW/MP game cannot deliver the same quality of story as a purely single player experience because it's not my story.

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, DAO offers some great modding opportunities and capabilities. That said, NWN2 also offers some great modding possibilities. To say that NWN2 is "better" and DAO is "bad" is personal and biased opinion presented as fact. I'll keep modding in DAO, and I'm happy to see other modders make a transition to its toolset, but I'll also be pleased if they continue to produce mods for NWN2.

[ladydesire]

Shallina wrote...

Bigger picture is that DAO is almost one year old.

Where is the CC ? where are the players mod ?

Projects index done by the Dragon Age
Open House group and Dragon Age Nexus

Where are the
toolset patch so you could use XP1 ressources ?

Some modders are already using some of them, even without having the exact ones that are in the toolset; Bioware has had to hold off on releasing them since they are working on DA2, but they are planning to release them soon.

Nothing. SP game doesn't get as much attention as MP games
for the PC crownd.

And you can't mod on console. So consol gamers ain't doing
it.

[Shallina]

Only tweaks for DAO at the moment.

NWN2 and NWN1 had more than that after 1 years.

and when DA2 will be out, DA3 and DLC will be th enew escuse for no toolset update. EA and Bioware are more focused on consol and DLC than player mod.

Modifié par Shallina, 05 septembre 2010 - 12:25 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

I wish I could say it wasn't true but most of NWN2s best work and custom content came after the community was past its half life. For example, the Beholder and drider projects were just last year. Many of the creature models were relatively recent as well. And as we can see due to the "project release dates"thread, at least half if not more of the big time projects are also just now coming out.

I understand why, do to length of time required in a big project, but its a shame that we couldnt get a little more in synch with the height of the content matching the height of the popularity but at least in the future we will have a better picture
of how long players will wait for your projects. But I digress. DA simply has not had the time for any content to be judged.

Its been out a year; anyone making any kind of serious mod will take at least a year to make it and they have to learn
the toolset first and come up with an idea. Custom content is usually even slower because they have to understand
even more deeply the engine, than a simple mod author does.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 05 septembre 2010 - 12:28 .

[AmstradHero]

Shallina, you're either trolling to get a rise, or not looking at the evidence presented to you. Only tweaks for DAO at the moment? If you bothered to pay attention to my sig, you'd see I've released a quest mod add-in. Several other quest mods exists, and there's even a fully voiced new companion. Act 1 of Dark Times (an add-in to main campaign that will provide several hours of gameplay) is just around the corner, and plenty of other work is in progress. Work is being done, it just takes time.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[ladydesire]

Shallina: Morrowwind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 all have thriving modding communities and none of those games has multiplayer, so saying a game without it will never have a large following is quite false. Just because the persistent worlds of NWN and NWN2 have influenced modding to some degree in both games doesn't mean that there wouldn't be mods for them without the existence if it. In fact, we don't know what percentage of players of these games have even acknowledged that such a thing exists, never mind have tried to log in to one.

[Hellfire_RWS]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

I wish I could say it wasn't true but most of NWN2s best work and custom content came after the community was past its half life. For example, the Beholder and drider projects were just last year. Many of the creature models were relatively recent as well. And as we can see due to the "project release dates"thread, at least half if not more of the big time projects are also just now coming out.

As one of the major contributors of custom content, and a person that watched the CC come out on a daily basis. I will be more than happy to tell you that the statement you just made is NOT true, not even close to being true.

Just becasue you pick a couple of projects that came out in the recent past doesnt justify your statemnt.


As far as DAO not having MP and not having much CC, I have to agree this is sounding very very similar to the NWN1 vs NWN2.

DAO will be just fine. It will have its share of CC creators and mod makers,  and a host of projects that will push it to its limits.

[Challseus]

ladydesire wrote...

In fact, we don't know what percentage of players of these games have even acknowledged that such a thing exists, never mind have tried to log in to one.

I don't have the numbers with me, and this being the internet, no one will believe me, but Bioware definitely released the number of unique player who went online, in contrast to the numbers who bought the game, and it was a very low percentage (i.e. less than 10%). This argument has popped more than times than I care to remember in the last 6 years, and I have not been able to find a link to whoever at Bioware made the initial post.

That said, even with those numbers staring them in the face, multiplayer proponents still claim MP is what made NWN thrive.

Meh, what can you do? Personally, I think DAO will be fine. By early 2011, I am sure a bunch of big WIP modules (including mine) will be finished. As many have pointed out, this first iteration of modules will take longer because of the learning curve. The 2nd generation will be produced faster, and be better in overall quality, me thinks.

[Eguintir Eligard]

Just because you choose to pick different projects to make a claim, doesnt make your statement true Hellfire.
More than half the content came out after more than half the population was gone. Simple fact. If you have the desire
to hunt everything down and prove me wrong go for it. I wasn't looking for a silly side debate it was just a thought I had,
wishing that some things were available sooner. Not day 1, but just sooner.  Namely as I said, creatures. There's a good handful now people have made. I could have used those long ago.

I don't really know about MP numbers, but they never seemed big to me. Mind you most of my exposure is just from
the modules forum, so it probably doesn't mean squate but nobody every wanted to mod for or play multi there. If we
did like persistent worlds we'd probably spend hours a day in Warcraft and not modding. The low numbers seem
to bear out this menality for the community at large.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:28 .