205 réponses à ce sujet

[ladydesire]

Shallina wrote...

NWN2 toolset was missing the lips synch plug in when
released to the public beceause that software was a licensed
one. It was the only major thing missing from the toolset that
OBSIDIAN used to create the campaign. And now we got a
community plug in that is doing it.

What about the model exporting plugin for 3DS Max? Didn't
Tazpn end up having to duplicate it when Obsidian pulled
theirs due to licensing problems? I know that delayed getting
decent models out for NWN2.

The missing feature of the "real DAO" toolset used for
DAO
campaign are bigger than that. That is a "no good thing" as
well.

This was why the DA toolset initially was not going to even
have a level editor, as I recall; the current lightmapper was
written by Bioware so we could have a toolset that was as
close to the one they use as was possible. This is also why
Bioware released documentation on the model format, since
they couldn't provide us with the plugin they used to create
the models.

I know of a project that is working on adding three "races"
worth of robes and armor (entirely new models); I'm also
personally working on two others of my own that will add new
content to DA as well as interlock with existing works in
progress for DA. I have also created one of the first new
classes for DA, that is not simply a port of D&D classes to DA.

[Shallina]

Quest mod add in are tweaks. For DAO ? you got ****** mod, graphic tweaks, small add in, graphical tweaks on existing creature. It's very similar to what you can find on BG or BG2. It really can't compare to what you can find for NWN1 or NWN2. Working on a BG remake I had to follow what was done for BG. What I see for DAO are things similar to what was done to BG.

It's cool, it will give more option to the game. But it really can't compare.

It's nothing like a new campaign with new areas and new main story line that stands on its own. NWN1 and NWN2 didn't have to wait one year to see them appear.

Online player are more involved than offline or solo player with their game. They are perhaps not as numerous, but it's among them that you'll find a big share of mod makker and custom content creator.

And about all of the if about DAO toolset, you don't make something with "if".

You need those tool. IF you haven't got them, you can't do it. There is no "but they say it would be in".

there is only "It's in" and you can work or "it's not" and you are screwed. For now with dao there is a lot of "it's not" hence the lack of anithing major coming out.  The toolset have a second rate ligning mapper, for anyone willing to do new area wich look like a proffessional one, it's a "no".

Gimme a link of something I can dowload to prove me wrong. Not a link to a site where poeple only show what they wants to do. No update on DAO toolset and DA2 around the corner. 

Modifié par Shallina, 05 septembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[FergusM]

Shallina wrote...

Quest mod add in are tweaks. For DAO ? you got ****** mod, graphic tweaks, small add in, graphical tweaks on existing creature. It's very similar to what you can find on BG or BG2. It really can't compare to what you can find for NWN1 or NWN2. Working on a BG remake I had to follow what was done for BG. What I see for DAO are things similar to what was done to BG.

It's cool, it will give more option to the game. But it really can't compare.

It's nothing like a new campaign with new areas and new main story line that stands on its own. NWN1 and NWN2 didn't have to wait one year to see them appear.

In this very thread, myself, Challseus and Amstrad are all working on longer stand-alone campaigns (and others probably, this is just from a cursory glance). Some of these will be coming out in a matter of months.

The toolset have a second rate ligning mapper, for anyone willing to do new area wich look like a proffessional one, it's a "no".

Check out the Shores of Voline or Black Thorn mods for some examples of some very nice levels. The lightmapper is a bit painful but is certainly serviceable.

Modifié par FergusM, 05 septembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[AmstradHero]

Shallina wrote...
Quest mod add in are tweaks. For DAO ? you got ****** mod, graphic tweaks, small add in, graphical tweaks on existing creature

Right, so if it's not standalone it's not a mod? That's an arbitrary statement if ever I heard one. But even if we play by those rules, we've got Fragments of Ferelden, Kal-Sharok and classic Week, at least. Also, according to you, Morrowind, Oblivion and Fallout 3 have no mods whatsoever. And then what is custom content? That's not even something that can be played directly. I guess that can't be a mod either, so we have to rule that out of the discussion. Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

Shallina wrote...
The toolset have a second rate ligning mapper, for anyone willing to do new area wich look like a proffessional one, it's a "no".

Exactly on what basis are you making this judgement? Given I've been working with the level editor quite heavily lately, I can only assume you're operating entirely on hearsay and bad assumptions. The lightmapper has shortcomings, of that there is no doubt, but it does not prevent quality looking levels from being produced.

Here a link to threads about the two mods FergusM mentioned, here and here, both of which contain numerous screenshots.  I'd also like to think that my own level design skills aren't too horrible...I present a preview of one the levels I recently created:  Screenshot 1, Screenshot 2, Screenshot 3 and a video walkthrough. Still think that DAO modding can't produce quality levels?

Your arguments either make no sense:

"And about all of the if about DAO toolset, you don't make something with "if".You need those tool. IF you haven't got them, you can't do it. There is no "but they say it would be in".

Or are nothing more than opinion:

Online player are more involved than offline or solo player with their game. They are perhaps not as numerous, but it's among them that you'll find a big share of mod makker and custom content creator.

You're screaming out for evidence to prove you wrong, and then saying it's invalid for an arbitrary reason when you do receive it.  You're also not presenting any evidence to back your own argument.

You seem to have an "us" vs "them" mentality. What are you scared of? That modders will migrate away from NWN2? Some will. Some won't. I don't care if other modders do or don't - I'll support their modding efforts either way. Why do you feel the need to denigrate the decision of those who have chosen to move to DAO?

Modifié par AmstradHero, 05 septembre 2010 - 10:05 .

[Shallina]

There is online game that has more player than the number of box that bioware sold for its 5 last game put altogether. Bioware said themself if they knew it a little earlier they wouldn't have done DAO the same.

How does a module maker proceed with stuff he doesn't have or doesn't know ?

Custom content , help ? He goes online. A module maker is plugged to the net he doesn't really have a choice if he wants a descent result.

And if he is a gamer you'll find that he is also playing online with friends. A thing that DAO will nevers allow him to do.
That's the biggest flaw of DAO. The 3 big "NO" of DAO are :

 1 - no MP.
 2 - no day/night cycle (big immersion breaker)
 3 - very few monster (wich make the toolset too specific to DAO setting).

Those 3 put together are a really big deal.

Cool animation, cool character models, cool blueprints and the Bioware label, won't correct those 3 major problems. You can deal with the other problem in the same way it's possible to deal with NWN2 problems. But those 3 one are a big breaker that aren't easy to correct. Only one could be corrected among those 3 but so far there is only reskinning of existing monster.

I waited on DAO and told me, super cool here the new big thing for modding. But it isn't. At last until it recieve a major update, but it's not even updated for XP1 stuff.

Modifié par Shallina, 05 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[The Fred]

Yes, having an online community helps a lot, but you don't need multiplayer to be able to mod a game. I pretty much never play multiplayer or PWs myself, and building MP mods is a lot more work. I do think that having the option to do MP is good, and the lack of it *is* a shortcoming in DA, but even if NWN2 had no MP, I'd still be building stuff for it.

[-Semper-]

first i don't wanna drop fuel into the fire but what shallina said about the lightmapper is true! i worked with the level editor since it's release and tried almost everything with the given eclipse ray to track down issues. btw there is a huge difference in quality between indoor and outdoor levels. eclipse ray was strongly tested with outdoor levels and the focus clearly lies on working sunlight. that's what was fixed within the initial releases and is more or less the only functional thing eclispe ray produces to date - this also is also why the most beautiful screens are showing outdoor maps. these levels are lit by only 1 directional light (the sun). now there absolutely will be black dots (lightmapping issues) on top of your level mesh and you have to rework them with the tesselation tool just to produce unnecessary polygons. still there will be models which recieve bad lighting. and better don't ever try to use 2 static lights within the same chunk or it will be srewed. without tmp's and my work there would be a lot unusable models because they don't work with together with eclipse ray

also alpha maps won't work - so spider webs are a no go. you have to turn of the lighting for them and they will stand out bright white. the normal map calculation is not combined within the light maps so you textures indoor will look plain and flat. if you compare a vanilla screenshot of bioware's lighting and a custom one you clearly see the difference!

someone posted screenshots of coast of shoreline: if you look carefully at those screenshots you will notice plain lighting, noisy light maps and wrong calculated shadows. that happens to ALL custom indoor levels because eclipse ray simply can't handle them! as said to some degree also outdoor levels suffer from these issues and for most of them there is absolutely nothing you can do besides hiding them with a prop or manually rework all your light maps with a 2d editor like photoshop.

to give my statement more weight i marked those errors at two screenshots. it's not the fault of the modder but eclipse ray which produces such a horrible (yes, within my view it is horrible) outcome.

Modifié par -Semper-, 05 septembre 2010 - 12:00 .

[AmstradHero]

Shallina: I see absolutely no point in continuing any discussion with you, mainly because you're not participating in one. You refuse to offer anything apart from rhetoric and your opinions presented as facts, and cannot (or refuse to) discuss any issue when presented with evidence refuting your "claims". I addressed your points in my previous post and you immediately attempted to change the subject, just as you have done throughout the entire thread.

Semper: As for those screenshots from Shores of Voline, apart from the overly bright doorway in the first picture, I probably wouldn't have noticed any of the red areas you've highlighted while playing the game. Yes, there's a bit of noise and some dark patches, but unless I was closely scrutinizing them, I wouldn't notice or likely even care if I did. If we're staring at screenshots, yes, you can notice them. but I doubt most players pay that much attention as they're going through an area. Regardless, I'd argue that NWN2's graphical quality is still below DAO's even with those issues, and that's not even taking into consideration the performance issues that come with NWN2's dynamic lighting.

[Shallina]

Then How do you propose to counter those 3 hudge problem ?

"I don't want to disccuss with you beceause i don't like you" won't make those 3 major problem deasaper.

I' am waiting for your solution ? Where are they ?

Dynamic lighting no good ? Well if someone is talented enought he could make a plug in. Bioware  bought one, that's why it's not given to us. So on this part you need to find soemone better than them since they weren't able to do it themself.

- Very few creature. In one years no new one. Perhaps someone could made the 10 or 20 missing so we could have something descent. A lot of work in that area, good luck finding someone for it. But possible.

-  Correct the crappy combat system, and put more than 3 class. Well you can find someone to put new class and redesign the one in place. It is possible, we are all waiting on it in order to make the combat gameplay interesting. Difficult task, but possible.

- Getting MP in order to lure the PW maker in, and get a hand on their work ? Impossible.

- bigger text, more conversation option for the roleplay fan who like this stuff ? (more than 6 reply and more word for a response) Impossible.

- Day/night cycle in order to bring some life on your world and allow some dynamic event depending on it ? Thief, vampire werewolf and many other are normally out at night, while at day we find a different crownd. How to render a timed quest without it ?

And I could go on for more....

When you take in consideration that some are impossible and the possible one require a hudge amount of work while DA2 is about to comes out. Believing in the DAO toolset and feature turned into something descent for modding is really a big gamble.

My advice is if you are interested in modding for DA, better wait for DA2 and see what will be the deal. The current one is really a big gamble if you want something cool as a final product, and the chance you win that gamble are very slimm beceause of what is given to you.

Modifié par Shallina, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:41 .

[AmstradHero]

As has been stated previously, 1 is not a problem. 2 also isn't a problem as many, MANY games have been highly successful without dynamic day/night cycles. 3 can be fixed by custom content, just as it was for NWN2.

They're huge problems for YOU. Not huge problems for DAO.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 05 septembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[Haplose]

AmstradHero wrote...

For the first point, that's a wait and see game, exactly like it was with NWN2. For the second, I'm only of the people who doesn't care about multiplayer. That's right, not one bit. For me, I'm in a game for the story, and a PW/MP game cannot deliver the same quality of story as a purely single player experience because it's not my story.

Well, that is not true IMVHO. No pre-written, pre-set story, no matter how good, can compare with a story driven by a living DM, adjusting the course of events basing on player actions, ideas. Sky is the limit in this scenario.Well, except that it actually is not.There is no limit.

As for the DAO modding - it's like you said, it's wait and see. Probably it'll work out and take off eventually. But then again the DAO toolset/assets seem only suited to adventures set in DA lore - which is very limited, compared to the rich DnD settings.

[-Semper-]

AmstradHero wrote...

Yes, there's a bit of noise and some dark patches, but unless I was closely scrutinizing them, I wouldn't notice or likely even care if I did. If we're staring at screenshots, yes, you can notice them. but I doubt most players pay that much attention as they're going through an area.

the noise drastically depends on the models you are using as can be seen at this screenshots. this noise will be seen while playing the area because it reduces the quality to something down below zero


(that's a level proleric made)





this is all caused by only eclipse ray - there is no user's fault. also take in consideration that without the community lots of models are simply not usable with the toolset because their vanilla light maps won't work in combination with the light mapper bioware provided. plus there are tons of other bugs like alpha maps, normal maps, wrong calculated ambient light intensity, fragments, blue shades, chunks, reflections which simply don't work, only sunlight works how it was supposed to be.

yes, you can work with the toolset and the light mapper does a limited job but never expect a triple a quality outcome bioware has shown - that is simply not doable with eclipse ray!

and better don't post screenshots which only show perfect angles. every level suffers from these issues

Modifié par -Semper-, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:39 .

[Shallina]

The only descent thing you can say to someone interested into modding with DA is :

Wait DA2 and see if Bioware provide an updated toolset. If they don't then you'll be taking a really big risk while modding for DA with what is available today. Many poeple willl be waiting for your work, but the toolset probably won't have the requirement to do what you want (missing feature or bug).

You can take the gamble of beeing able to update your work with the DA2 toolset in order to have a cool final result.

But the fact they release or not the DA2 toolset isn't decided yet, and it's not sure that you'll be able to use your work in it. It's a really risky gamble. But with what we got today, we can't dream of having a result close to the DAO OC.

Modifié par Shallina, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

"It's nothing like a new campaign with new areas and new main story line that stands on its own. NWN1 and NWN2 didn't have to wait one year to see them appear.

I feel the need to chime in here only to say I already did a new area, actually 2, complete from scratch in the 1 week I took to learn DA. I have a small forest clearing, and a interior of a hut. The hut took longer, the exterior was the same. It looks better than anything I ever did in NWN2 because you can make the mesh as high a resolution as you want, I got rid of every ugly geometric shape sticking out. As a non good artist, I made stuff beyond my normal skill. But anyway my point is saying it cant make new areas and a new story line stand on its own is just lying now. My area also looks radically different in tone from the regular game because I override the grass to not be so depressing. It actually looks like
something in a storybook now. So its not hardwired into only making DA lore mods. In fact if anything D&D's rule sets
are hardwired to only making D&D lore as its pretty obviously a proprietary set of rules.

When it comes to creatures, thats the true flaw, if anything that limits me to probably going with DA lore because the creatures only have so many models. DA is a more professional toolset attracts more professional modders (in terms of the actual adventure modders) and not the ****** ones. Therefore, their modules come out after a year because they aren't making 22 minute mickey mouse mods, would be my guess. 

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 05 septembre 2010 - 01:59 .

[-Semper-]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

because you can make the mesh as high a resolution as you want

there are only 5 levels of tesselation, so there is no thing like "as high as you want". also i would not tesselate all of your level because it drastically reduces the performance. within big levels a 5th grade tesselated mesh takes hours to render.

[Eguintir Eligard]

I make my mesh as high a resolution as *I* want hows that? Nothing is infinite.



I tessalate what needs, it, like when I have a sharp rock texture to reduce the fake looking gemoetric edges. I don't tesselate rolling hills and the flat spaces of course not what would be the point. Thats a discussion for elsewhere. As for the lighting though, I'm sure the problem exists but my interior hut doesn't seem to exhibit anything wrong, from any angle. Definitely not that noise of that pic you posted. Again though it appears there is an issue.

[-Semper-]

Eguintir Eligard wrote...

As for the lighting though, I'm sure the problem exists but my interior hut doesn't seem to exhibit anything wrong

gimme your level and i'll show you the issues
as said it also depends on the models used within the map. you can't track completely down what's causing this bug. only because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there.

i bet that there are also only a few people who noticed the lack of normal maps within the calculated light maps.

[AndarianTD]

As someone who's still building in NWN1, my answer to this question is probably pretty obvious. A few points:

• DA's lack of MP support is only of concern to people who want to build or play MP. For those of us who are interested in building and playing SP adventures, it's an irrelevant consideration. Also, as I've argued extensively elsewhere, DA is much better as an SP modding environment because it didn't attempt the kind of dual-purpose SP/MP design that some commentators are criticizing it for not having.
• DA's game mechanics and ruleset are very different and somewhat streamlined compared to NWN or NWN2's. If you like D&D and/or want a more complex ruleset with (for example) more class options, then NWN or NWN2 may be a better choice for you. If (like me) you prefer a more streamlined ruleset that doesn't get in the way of creating story-driven RP as much, DA may be a better choice for you.
• DA's toolset is more complex and powerful than that of either NWN games. It takes a lot to learn and is more suited to team development, but in the end you can do certain things that are the bread and butter of story-driven RP gaming much more effectively with it. These include things like (for example) precisely scripted and staged cutscenes and animations.
• I ran up against the conversation character limitation (which someone mentioned earlier in the thread) when I was at the DA Builder's event a year ago and brought it up as an issue to the Bioware folks. When we tested it we found (at least at that time) that the limitation isn't actually enforced in the toolset. It turned the node an ugly warning color in the dialog editor, but it still displayed the text in-game. There were issues with the text bleeding out of the letterbox and into the graphical display area, but unless they've changed it since then it should still work.
• As it was with both NWN1 and NWN2, lack of custom content is an issue with any new game for the first 2-3 years. This is one of the things delaying modding for DA. Others are the steep learning curve; the need for builders to engage in a "paradigm shift" toward team modding to develop effectively given the increased complexity of the toolset; and the fact that some prospective DA builders (e.g. myself) have had to delay switching because we were already in mid-saga on another project.

Modifié par AndarianTD, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[Eguintir Eligard]

Ya hopefully people are more willing to form teams now that they've seen the quality of the authors work in earlier toolsets. Very strongly encourage this. All the control freak complex gets you is left behind and doing things on your own. The more complex these systems get, the less that will be viable.

[Challseus]

Shallina wrote...

The only descent thing you can say to someone interested into modding with DA is :

Wait DA2 and see if Bioware provide an updated toolset. If they don't then you'll be taking a really big risk while modding for DA with what is available today. Many poeple willl be waiting for your work, but the toolset probably won't have the requirement to do what you want (missing feature or bug).

Wait, what? Seriously, what in the hell are you going on about?

You need to stop passing off your feelings about missing/broken features as things that will stop all people from making mods.

For the record, I have been building a custom campaign since early January, and there has not been one thing, I repeat, one thing that has stopped me from realizing my vision. Of course things pop up every now and again that are annoying, but that's modding. Anyone worth their salt, and who is determined to create something can and will create something. Everything else is just a bunch of excuses.

"Oh noes, there is no day/light system, now I can't create anything"

Modifié par Challseus, 05 septembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

The only thing I can say about DAO moding is.



Give it a try and see if its for you. Do not rely on other peoples opinion. Find out first hand and make your decision based on experience.



I know that I don't want to mod for DAO, but that does not make it a bad platform to mod on.

[ladydesire]

There is something to be said about tradition; it can really limit people's imagination when they start thinking that how things have been done in the past is the way it has to be done. That's one reason I'm glad Bioware tossed the traditional fantasy genre out on its ears when creating Dragon Age; I see more possibilities for mods in the looser "canon" for DA than I could ever hope to see in D&D. The Tevinter Warden class, Lealion the Mage, and Secrets of the Tevinter Warden (all projects of mine) are my personal contribution to the community created canon of Dragon Age. I also don't see the reduced number of standard classes as a limiting factor; in fact, I feel it actually helps modders by reducing the complexity of the mods they create. The same is true of the lack of multiplayer; modders don't have to feel obligated to make sure their mod will work in multiplayer.

[Eguintir Eligard]

http://img801.images...tlightshow.jpg/

http://img831.images.../i/forestc.jpg/

These are my two areas. I'm not sure what is a bug and what is me not knowing how to light worth a s*t I was going to post and ask why shadows seem excessive for an outdoor area.

Shalina I gotta say you are a tad on the delusional side. Any flaw about nwn2 you swear up and down can be fixed by anyone who wants to, it just needs to be "evolved " or use a plugin. Which is hogpoo btw, you aren't going to fixing the warping/movement bugs, vfx handling or anything in game with a plugin. It's source code or nothing.

But yet if its a DA flaw its never going to change according to you. This is opinionation, not fact. I got news for you NWN2 not only abandoned its game it kicked us out of the forum. If anything is getting any fixes, it isnt this set. That's fact.

PS Lady Desire just mentioned a good point I thought, but had trouble putting to words. Have simplified classes means you can kind of avoid one of the most annoying, imo, types of demographics who just template everything and talk about builds. Probably the most irritating complaints to have when your module is focused around people, places and events. You can add as many custom classes as you want. But there is so many standard ones that you have to artificially offer all these paths and options that you didnt really want in your scope. A form of limit? Maybe. But now I feel just fine having 4 dwarf blank warrior templates as my modules party and focus on the fun. I don't feel tied into anything because of a long standing history of rules and classes.

Modifié par Eguintir Eligard, 05 septembre 2010 - 04:28 .

[Hellfire_RWS]

Challseus wrote...

. Anyone worth their salt, and who is determined to create something can and will create something. Everything else is just a bunch of excuses.

"Oh noes, there is no day/light system, now I can't create anything"

+1

How many times did we hear the complaints about NWN2. I cant do X or oh no, you cant make new animated creatures.. etc.. NWN2 is garbage no sense in modding with it. 

Those who have to will to make a project in DAO toolset will accomplish their goals.

[Shallina]

I gave you the reason that made that DAO isn't going to replace NWN2, and why NWN2 will continue.  I gave you the 3 main point that DAO is missing to becomme the successor.

I could gave you the feature that make DAO toolset interesting, the first one beeing all the deal around cutscene where it's clearly super powerfull.

DAO toolset isn't an evolution from NWN2 toolset, it's something different. And so it is here to do different things than the DAO toolset.

The question is  : Is there any point to modding in NWN2 ? Well given all the missing feature DAO has next to NWN2, if you want to make use of those feature, you don't really have a choice, DAO won't allow you to do what you want.

It's exactly the same the other way around. IF you need feature that are in DAO but not in NWN2, DAO is your only option.

And this is why DAO isn't an evolution. Just something different.

Modifié par Shallina, 05 septembre 2010 - 05:02 .