75 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

SirGladiator wrote...

That's what I'd do, if I didn't do the DR I'd have Loghain (or Allistair if I didn't let Loghain live) take the bullet at the end. But I guess the way to know for sure what happens if the Warden dies, is to play through Awakenings with a Warden that died in Origins and came back to life in Awakenings. I've only played through Awakenings once, and my Warden did the DR so she was still very much alive, and I got the ending with my Warden and Leliana together both at the end of Origins and Awakenings, so if you get that ending at the end of Awakenings then you know she didn't kill herself before you came back to life, but if you don't get that ending that would definitely suggest she killed herself. Since I don't know the answer to that all I can do is guess, but my guess is that her 'vision' was indeed of seeing the Warden again, alive, after the events of Awakenings and that they get together again in a very happy reunion indeed!

If you did the US you were supposed to create a new Warden. As you didn't, in the AU you were playing Loghain/Alistair killed the Archdemon instead and in the original universe where she did US, Leliana killed herself.

[TJPags]

CalJones wrote...

Certainly, if you want to risk the consequences.
I usually have Loghain take care of the AD. He wants to do it, my warden wants to live - it all works out.

Sufficient unto the day are the evils therein.  Someone famous said that.  I think. 

Anyway, doing the DR lets me (my Warden) live.  Thinking from the point of view of my Warden, that's a very good thing.  After all, there's a 50% or greater chance that the god baby won't be evil.   And if it is, well, hey, I'll still be around to send Junior back to hell, after all.

I brought you into this world.  I'll take you out.  Bill Cosby said that. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Where is the 50% from TJ?

No one has any idea about how the DR will turn out.

[Sarah1281]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Where is the 50% from TJ?
No one has any idea about how the DR will turn out.

Maybe he means that since there are only two choices (the baby is evil or the baby isn't) that there is a fifty percent chance that it won't be evil? That's a pretty common statistical fallacy.  

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Where is the 50% from TJ?
No one has any idea about how the DR will turn out.

Not, as Sarah said, a 1 ikn 2 chance it's evil.

Morrigan suggested this, based on what Flemith wanted to do.  My recollection is, Morrigan mentioned that she studied the ritual, and that "it will work", ie, it will bring an old god back into the world in unsullied form.

I like Morrigan.  I trust her.  She may be abrasive, and I'm not saying she's brilliant, but she's learned a little (perhaps a lot) of what Flemith planned from the Grimoire, and she's assuring me it'll work as planned, and she doesn't really do anything that's blatantly stupid in the game.  In all her dialogue options, she always comes across as honest - sometimes annoyingly so.

That's where I get better than 50% from.

[Sarah1281]

It was just a guess. Although where you're getting fifty percent or better from seems awfully imprecise.

[TJPags]

Trust isn't precise, Sarah.

[Sarah1281]

TJPags wrote...

Trust isn't precise, Sarah.

But you're talking about odds here. If Morrigan ends up not having an evil kid then there's 100% that she could be trusted as she was proven right. Until we do know for sure, putting a percentage on it makes it sound more precise than 'I think I can trust her and she may or may not know what she's talking about' really warrants.

[TJPags]

Sarah1281 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Trust isn't precise, Sarah.

But you're talking about odds here. If Morrigan ends up not having an evil kid then there's 100% that she could be trusted as she was proven right. Until we do know for sure, putting a percentage on it makes it sound more precise than 'I think I can trust her and she may or may not know what she's talking about' really warrants.

Odds are exactly that - a numercial represenatation of someone's belief that something will happen.

So, I guess I'd say odds are 3-2 the kid ain't evil.  That's good enough for me (unless the longshot has the race of it's life)

[DragonRageGT]

ninja0809 wrote...

"Leliana remained in the royal court for a time, mourning. She poured her
heart into a ballad that would eventually become known throughout
thedas. But after one performance, leliana quietly vanished.Some say
that the maker came to her in a vision again that night. Smiling,tears
in her eyes, she told a maid that she would see her love again at last"

please say it isn't so T_________T

See, from my point of view, "for a time" can mean a long number of years and "The Maker came to her in a vision" highly indicates that she died of old age and natural causes. Because whatever god we're talking about, none of them would support suicide and much less bless a suicidal tendency with a holy vision.

So, for me, if you didn't harden her, did romanced her, took her with you to the final battle and, perhaps, did A Legendary Duet with her, she'll attend to your funeral and will not take her own life after but live for a few more years and die from natural causes.

http://www.youtube.c...KR2au84#t=5m25s - part of my Dragon Age goes Epic - The Battle for Ferelden - Final video.

Also, my Warden (created well before game release with the stand off Character Creator, I emphasize!) apparently had a few twin brothers too. One made by Bioware itself! So she might find some confort with one of them. :innocent:

Dragon Age - Awakening - My Twin Brother!

Modifié par RageGT, 24 août 2010 - 06:07 .

[Sarah1281]

See, from my point of view, "for a time" can mean a long number of years and "The Maker came to her in a vision" highly indicates that she died of old age and natural causes. Because whatever god we're talking about, none of them would support suicide and much less bless a suicidal tendency with a holy vision.

I don't think she actually had a vision at this point. She may have just had a dream and, being rather unstable at the time, handled it badly.

[DragonRageGT]

Sarah1281 wrote...

See, from my point of view, "for a time" can mean a long number of years and "The Maker came to her in a vision" highly indicates that she died of old age and natural causes. Because whatever god we're talking about, none of them would support suicide and much less bless a suicidal tendency with a holy vision.

I don't think she actually had a vision at this point. She may have just had a dream and, being rather unstable at the time, handled it badly.

And here I was thinking you were not a tragic figure type! (great stuff there btw!)

Modifié par RageGT, 24 août 2010 - 06:14 .

[guitarbard]

When I first read the ending, I interpreted it as a suicide. It fits the typical signals: going from a state of sadness to a sudden peace, calm, and acceptance. But then, I I'm too into Psych to really look at it differently. I'd like to think, though, that the PC came to her in a dream and said "come be with me." I forget the specifics - I only did US once.

[adneate]

RageGT wrote...

See, from my point of view, "for a time" can mean a long number of years and "The Maker came to her in a vision" highly indicates that she died of old age and natural causes. Because whatever god we're talking about, none of them would support suicide and much less bless a suicidal tendency with a holy vision.

That's making the assumption that The Maker is real, which given all the evidence (or lack there of) there may very well be no such thing. Religious visions can be messages condoning both murder and suicide, During the fall of Jeruslam in the 1st Crusade people claimed to see Saints dressed as Knights urging or in some case taking part in the wholesale massacre of every man woman and child in the city. I doubt you'd have to look very far today for some religious wackjob who would either kill himself or kill others in the name of God.

Leliana has had a life full of abandonment and cases of extreme mental and physical abuse, she's functional in the game dispite all this. However The Warden's death in this case is totally crushing, she's lost the only friend and love she's had in years, she's alone in the world again. People in such states aren't known for making the best decisions, and Leliana doesn't since she's probably very open to the idea of suicide at that point and this "Vision" would be something she'd listen to and drive her to take that very final action of ending her own life.

[Sarah1281]

RageGT wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

See, from my point of view, "for a time" can mean a long number of years and "The Maker came to her in a vision" highly indicates that she died of old age and natural causes. Because whatever god we're talking about, none of them would support suicide and much less bless a suicidal tendency with a holy vision.

I don't think she actually had a vision at this point. She may have just had a dream and, being rather unstable at the time, handled it badly.

And here I was thinking you were not a tragic figure type! (great stuff there btw!)

Oh, I'm not. Doesn't mean the other people in the game can't be...

And thanks.

[guitarbard]

Sounds like adneate and I are BOTH really interested in psych. Only her analysis is much more in-depth.

And Sarah - she's a bard - of COURSE she's going to be a tragic figure.

Modifié par AndrastesGrace, 24 août 2010 - 06:38 .

[DragonRageGT]

Well, I'm a sort of a Bard myself if I may dare to say so. I'm a songwriter, singer, musician, etc. I'd say that the only musicians that ever "suicided" are those that actually overdosed.



"Quem canta seus males espanta" says a very old portuguese/spanish proverb. (He who sings drives his worries away in case there is no better direct English translation). I can assure you that's one very true proverb!



Now, I think that there is evidence of some kind of Higher Power in that world. And usually, the crazy lunatics that use religion or "messages" to justify they real bad actions are outright lying, are completely demented or are just pawns of the very opposite of a loving Higher Power, either tricked by or commanded by it.



I agree that religion has killed more than any war in this planet and just like the Bible has many stuff added to it for the simple purpose of giving power to some but the greatest gift we were given is not knowledge or free will. It is the ability to love, truly and unconditionally love. If you ever felt that in your life, there is no way you're taking out your own life.



I believe that at some point Leliana's love would be just like that. True and unconditional.

[ninja0809]

RageGT wrote...

the greatest gift we were given is not knowledge or free will. It is the ability to love, truly and unconditionally love. If you ever felt that in your life, there is no way you're taking out your own life.

I believe that at some point Leliana's love would be just like that. True and unconditional.

If what Leliana and Warden had was truly so powerful, won't the warden's death leave her life more hollow and empty than before? Sounds kinda unbearable to me ='(

Modifié par ninja0809, 24 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[GardenSnake]

RageGT wrote...

Well, I'm a sort of a Bard myself if I may dare to say so. I'm a songwriter, singer, musician, etc. I'd say that the only musicians that ever "suicided" are those that actually overdosed.

Or been killed by their crazy wives.  Just saying.

Wow, that ending sucks. Poor Leli  

Thank god for the deus ex Morrigan! See what I did there  Screw it nevermind......

[DragonRageGT]

ninja0809 wrote...


If what Leliana and Warden had was truly so powerful, won't the warden's death leave her life more hollow and empty than before? Sounds kinda unbearable to me ='(

Perhaps you should watch City of Angels. I understand you very well, more than I would like perhaps. But the pain is not from the unconditional part of love. It's from the selfish/possessive part, very human, very common and very natural. Only that once its unconditional part takes over, you fell happy just for knowing that you had the opportunity of feeling such love and it doesn't really matter if the other part is there or has even corresponded to your feelings.

But if it has, all the better. You live on and honor that feeling. And everyday you will feel blessed because it's not all people that can feel love in such way. "Love Hurts" is a good theme for a song and stuff but true love can only make you happy, no matter what. Of course it is not that automatic but more of a process. We must grieve, feel the loss, etc. But we grow from it, spiritually, if we can then appreciate and treasure memories we keep, marks we carry with us and who knows, there might even be someone special for us to meet yet.

Andraste's Grace mentioned some phases of a process that leads to acceptance. It actually goes through Denial, then Anger, then Bargaining, then profound Sadness (Depression), then Acceptance. It is the same in many different areas of our lives but those who reached Acceptance, will never commit suicide despite the psychological background or conditions.

People who get stuck in the anger stage might. As I was remembering this stuff, I searched and found it on Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia....bler-Ross_model

[DragonRageGT]

GardenSnake wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Well, I'm a sort of a Bard myself if I may dare to say so. I'm a songwriter, singer, musician, etc. I'd say that the only musicians that ever "suicided" are those that actually overdosed.

Or been killed by their crazy wives.  Just saying.

Wow, that ending sucks. Poor Leli  

Thank god for the deus ex Morrigan! See what I did there  Screw it nevermind......

Tell me about it. I'm stuck with my own personal "Alex Forrest" for wife. You know who she is, right?

Fatal Attraction (1987)

Modifié par RageGT, 24 août 2010 - 08:22 .

[GardenSnake]

RageGT wrote...

GardenSnake wrote...

RageGT wrote...

Well, I'm a sort of a Bard myself if I may dare to say so. I'm a songwriter, singer, musician, etc. I'd say that the only musicians that ever "suicided" are those that actually overdosed.

Or been killed by their crazy wives.  Just saying.

Wow, that ending sucks. Poor Leli  

Thank god for the deus ex Morrigan! See what I did there  Screw it nevermind......

Tell me about it. I'm stuck with my own personal "Alex Forrest" for wife. You know who she is, right?

Fatal Attraction (1987)

Lol yep. Another good example, but I was more refering to Kurt Cobain's 'suicide'.

[adneate]

RageGT wrote...

Andraste's Grace mentioned some phases of a process that leads to acceptance. It actually goes through Denial, then Anger, then Bargaining, then profound Sadness (Depression), then Acceptance. It is the same in many different areas of our lives but those who reached Acceptance, will never commit suicide despite the psychological background or conditions.

People who get stuck in the anger stage might. As I was remembering this stuff, I searched and found it on Wiki.

That's making the assumption she commits suicide at the acceptance stage which by all indication she doesn't, she's more likely at the depression stage. In which case it's not unlikely at all for an individual to have suicidal thoughts, or feelings of profound hopelessness. Leliana is not a normal person with a regular history, she's an orphan who eventually fell for an older woman who then betrayed her. She then was then savagely raped and tortured for what was essentially loyalty to someone she loved, she flees to another country and spends a few years hiding in a monastery. There she is ridiculed for her beliefs and is generally un-liked by all her peers, she leaves with a pair of Grey Wardens. In this particular instance The Warden proves not only to be the first friend she's had in many years but someone who is just as loyal to her as she is to them. Then this individual dies and somehow it's unlikely that she would be absolutely crushed by this? She has no one else in the entire world, no family and no friends she doesn't have any support structure to fall back on. Instead she throws herself into her work composing a ballad that only digs up more painful memories and an intense desire to have The Warden back in her life. I don't see how someone with severe abandonment issues who's lost the most important person in their life wouldn't have an extremely difficult time coming to terms with it and at the very least entertain the thought to putting an end to a life that would seem so full of misery. Particularily when she believes very strongly in an afterlife and would also believe that The Warden would be there in it waiting for her. Since as far as we know the only way for somone to enter this realm would be through their death, even Andraste had to be killed to join the Maker according to The Chantry, ending this life early to embrace the next doesn't seem like a great leap of logic for a severely depressed individual such as Leliana.

[Sarah1281]

I agree that religion has killed more than any war in this planet and just like the Bible has many stuff added to it for the simple purpose of giving power to some but the greatest gift we were given is not knowledge or free will. It is the ability to love, truly and unconditionally love. If you ever felt that in your life, there is no way you're taking out your own life.



I believe that at some point Leliana's love would be just like that. True and unconditional.

Some might and some might not. Suicide is something that virtually anyone could choose to do at virtually any time for virtually any reason. Maybe feeling true and unconditional love might make that LESS likely but I don't see how it can make her unable to choose to end her own life.

[Dean_the_Young]

Suicidal people rarely have the vision to see that they are loved by others: a large part of the condition is irrational cyclical thinking which is increasingly hard to break out of.



The overwhelming theme of suicidal people (baring extreme situations) is that the people feel in constant pain and misery, physical, psychological, and emotional, and just want it to stop. This can come from a number of stressors, and love is actually a rather common one. The loss of someone close, or even the abandonment by a loved one ('Dear John' letters in the military, for example), have plenty of history of driving people into a suicidal state.



Leliana, especially unhardened, has a history of events that can well have pushed her into a suicidal mindset even before the game, Marjelen's betrayal being a key point of concern. For her claims of finding peace and happiness in the Chantry, she actually showed at least four signs of suicidal spiraling: a sudden and drastic change of personality, external affirmation of extreme cheerfulness/contentment (many suicidal people actually become extremely cheerful before taking their lives), a sudden abandonment of personal possessions(abandoned when entering the chantry), abandoning interests and hobbies (singing, fighting, and other bard activities given up in the Chantry which, even unhardened, she admits to loving), and feeling trapped (as, hardened, she admits she did in the Chantry). You could also point to some others, like acting impulsively (like joining the Warden), possible regular loss of sleep (she admits to having many dreams besides that Vision), and some lingering guilt and shame about Marjelen. And, again, Marjelen's betrayal given Leliana's over-affection is worthy of concern.



Mind you, signs do not equate to being: it could well be that Chantry Leliana was actually a very content, happy person who just wanted to do right by a possibly divine vision.



But she could also be someone who was already suicidal by the time you got there, and she moved one affection-fixation (her past mentor) onto another (the Warden), and without being hardened she didn't endure the loss again.