30 réponses à ce sujet

[barges26]

I was just reading some forum stuff online and I'm surprised at how many people DON'T like Justice? I think he's a really cool character!! I mean we see good fade spirits a couple times in Origins and I thought it was really cool to meet one in Awakening. 
and he was so endearingly oblivious to everything... ha

anyway, not looking for an argument-- just thoughts?? If you didn't like, why not? and if you did, why? 

[Crippledcarny]

He's an amazing character with an amazing story that was rushed and poorly implemented in game. He could have had much more depth but he didn't. A total waste really.

Modifié par Crippledcarny, 23 août 2010 - 12:49 .

[barges26]

I felt that way about a lot of the Awakening characters: that they were really fantastic characters, but Awakening is just a short expansion, so we don't get as much depth to them as we'd like.

I felt that way the strongest about Justice, though. I just thought he was a really cool character.



But we knew Awakening wasn't going to be long. And it leaves more up for speculation and fan-fun.

Still!

[TheDayWarden]

I thought Justice was ok, but not as interesting as some of the other Awakening companions, Nathaniel, Velanna and Sigrun had a lot more depth in my opinion. Nate especially, even my Cousland ended up best buds with him. I agree the character of Justice had a lot of potential though, and it's a shame we didn't get to know him more, although in my case it's probably because I always do the Blackmarsh last.

[TJPags]

My main problem with him is the decomposition. I mean, couldn't he do some kind of illusion thing about that? It's really disconcerting walking around with a rotting corpse.

[Red Crow]

The thing is, Justice is pretty much a rip-off of Vhailor from Planescape: Torment. Vhailor was another justice seeking spirit trapped in a body (well, a suit of armor in his case) on the mortal plane. The difference, though, is that Vhailor had infinitely better dialog. See for yourself:

Vhailor: When the injustice is great enough, justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it. None may stand against it. It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment, and lend its servant the power to pass sentence. Know this: There is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them. It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods. Know that for all who betray justice, I am their fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.
Nameless One: I see.
Vhailor: No, you do not see. Pray you never will.

Now, Awakening's Justice had really bland dialog, wasn't fleshed out at all and in the end was completely forgettable. The whole character was pretty much just a gimmick, "hey, look, we have a spirit trapped in a rotting corpse, isn't he kewl?". No, he's not, you need something more than just looks/idea to make a character work.

[Crippledcarny]

Once they managed to make The Architect boring and forgettable there really wasn't much hope left for anyone else at that point.

[Ympulse]

Not trying to call you out, crippledcarny, but saying the Architect is forgettable makes me think that you didn't do much more than glance at dialogue and/or look away and do something else while story bits were going on.



On-topic, though, Justice had poorly executed dialogue, I did a quick casual run-through of Awakening and did the black marsh first just so I could have him in my party longer than 10 mins. And, sadly, he was as bland as generic oatmeal.

[Eudaemonium]

Red Crow wrote...

The thing is, Justice is pretty much a rip-off of Vhailor from Planescape: Torment. Vhailor was another justice seeking spirit trapped in a body (well, a suit of armor in his case) on the mortal plane. The difference, though, is that Vhailor had infinitely better dialog. See for yourself:

Vhailor: When the injustice is great enough, justice will lend me the strength needed to correct it. None may stand against it. It will shatter every barrier, sunder any shield, tear through any enchantment, and lend its servant the power to pass sentence. Know this: There is nothing on all the Planes that can stay the hand of justice when it is brought against them. It may unmake armies. It may sunder the thrones of gods. Know that for all who betray justice, I am their fate. And fate carries an executioner's axe.
Nameless One: I see.
Vhailor: No, you do not see. Pray you never will.

Now, Awakening's Justice had really bland dialog, wasn't fleshed out at all and in the end was completely forgettable. The whole character was pretty much just a gimmick, "hey, look, we have a spirit trapped in a rotting corpse, isn't he kewl?". No, he's not, you need something more than just looks/idea to make a character work.

Now, PS:T is probably my favourite game of all time, but I'm going to have to disagree with you here on a couple of points. Justice and Vhailor were both, to a degree, embodiments of justice, and both were, to some degree dead. Their personalities, however, are completely different. Vhailor has a certainty of purpose which drives and sustains him: he *is* Justice, he is its axe. Justice in Awakening is clouded in uncertainty. He has, to a degree, lost his purpose since he doesn't understand how the world works. He strives towards justice, but in his mortal body is constantly afraid of his growing desires and what they might mean for him and the virtue to which he aspires. I think Justice is a lot more human a character than Vhailor, though I will concede that Vhailor has better dialogue (but to be honest, PS:T is likely the best game ever written, so that's no real surprise).

[night0205]

Keep in mind this is an expansion. People keep treating it like a sequel. Most expansions give you a couple hours of gameplay. Awakening gave you up to 30... I don't know, I liked it. I think many people were just upset that they couldn't have sex or something... Awakening is a long DLC... that's what a DLC is... content that contributes to a game, but an expansion is just more content. I really liked Awakening... And you know what... I really liked the characters... most more then Origins. Think about it... Characters in origins... that I uh... didn't care for... Sten, Wynne, Oghren, Zevran... Characters in awakening I didn't care for... Oghren... same from Origins. I admit, the characters weren't as indepth, but that's because it's an expansion... an expansion people, not a sequel. Sold for half the price, I think. Sigrun was awesome. Anders was cool. Justice was hard core. Velanna was funny actually... Nathaniel was interesting. Even though they weren't expanded on as much, they were good.

[TJPags]

Actually, I think Awakenings sold for 30 bucks. That's not a complaint on my end, just a note. Overall, I liked it. Just thought Justice could have, you know, hid the decay a bit more.

[Crippledcarny]

Awakening sold for 40$ at release vs 50$ at release for DA:O on PC, and they're currently priced the same amount at 30$. Awakening is about 10-15 hours of game play vs Origins which is around 60-80 hours. The fact is Awakening sold for about 10$ more than your normal expansion and is about 10 hours shorter. It's filled with an unreasonable amount of bugs that either totally stop you from progressing in the game or lock you out of quests. As well, many of these bugs still exist to this day and there is no real sign of them ever being fixed.

There's a lot of pointless crap that gets cried about on these forums but saying that Awakening was rushed and a complete disappointment really isn't one of them.

[XOGHunter246]

Seen as I'm not a tank character usally I use him and think he is cool don't know why others hate him.

Modifié par XOGHunter246, 24 août 2010 - 09:00 .

[barges26]

night0205 wrote...

Keep in mind this is an expansion. People keep treating it like a sequel. Most expansions give you a couple hours of gameplay. Awakening gave you up to 30... I don't know, I liked it. I think many people were just upset that they couldn't have sex or something...  

I really agree with you on this. It is just an expansion. There isn't enough time to have a bunch of new interesting characters and flesh out their entire backstories. We get enough to stay interested in them, but for the most part they aren't very in depth yet because the expansion length doesn't allow them to be. I don't think this is a short coming, really, just the nature of the beast?

Crippledcarny wrote...
Awakening sold for 40$ at release vs 50$ at release for DA:O on PC, and they're currently priced the same amount at 30$. Awakening is about 10-15 hours of game play vs Origins which is around 60-80 hours. 

I agree that the pricing was ridiculous for what we got and that's perhaps why we can label it a "disappointment" so easily but I don't think it was a complete disappointment at all. I think the money is the only thing that upsets me really.

also I don't know why people use hour play estimates at all any more. I think I played about 12 hours give or take a few on Awakening, yeah, but I got through Origins in 40, not rushing at all (I'd like to think I'm a pretty in depth player anyway). With, like I mentioned before, the exception of the price, I really think Awakening was a good expansion. And as night0205 said, I think people were expecting something huge and epic like a the sequel should be, but it just isn't. It's a few new chapters, that's all. 

Back on the main topic... Well, I think I got my answer, really.  seems it's more about the length and shallowness of Awakening that is provoking most of the Justice-dislike. 

[Janni-in-VA]

barges26 wrote...
Back on the main topic... Well, I think I got my answer, really.  seems it's more about the length and shallowness of Awakening that is provoking most of the Justice-dislike. 

I do believe you've hit the nail on the head.  I agree that there was great potential for the character, but expansions being what they are, there just wasn't time for the same character development we saw in DA:O.  Although the epilogue slides make this unlikely, I'd love to see another expansion that would give us a chance to work with some of the Awakening companions again.

There is a mod which makes Justice look a little less...dead.  You can find it here:  www.dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php .  In my humble opinion, this is the best of the four Justice mods available.

[barges26]

sigh, unfortunately I am playing on the PS3. Even so, I don't mind his grossness, it isn't as bad as everyone is treating it. It's not like I would romance him or anything... that's borderline necrophilia.

xD Thank you for replying

[Crippledcarny]

This idea that Awakening was an expansion so having undeveloped characters is somehow okay or expected is a load of crap, imo. Sarevok was well done in ToB. Safiya and Gann were great in MotB. Good characters with some depth can be done in expansions.

[bzombo]

barges26 wrote...

I was just reading some forum stuff online and I'm surprised at how many people DON'T like Justice? I think he's a really cool character!! I mean we see good fade spirits a couple times in Origins and I thought it was really cool to meet one in Awakening. 
and he was so endearingly oblivious to everything... ha

anyway, not looking for an argument-- just thoughts?? If you didn't like, why not? and if you did, why? 

justice is my favorite character in all of dragon age. i'm hopeful that they bring him back again. he has so much potential and his being a spirit would probably allow for him to show up in more places. who knows, but i'm hoping.

[bzombo]

Crippledcarny wrote...

This idea that Awakening was an expansion so having undeveloped characters is somehow okay or expected is a load of crap, imo. Sarevok was well done in ToB. Safiya and Gann were great in MotB. Good characters with some depth can be done in expansions.

sarevok is a bad example. he was built over bg1 and bg2. that a lot of time to get in depth.

[barges26]

bzombo wrote...

barges26 wrote...

I was just reading some forum stuff online and I'm surprised at how many people DON'T like Justice? I think he's a really cool character!! I mean we see good fade spirits a couple times in Origins and I thought it was really cool to meet one in Awakening. 
and he was so endearingly oblivious to everything... ha

anyway, not looking for an argument-- just thoughts?? If you didn't like, why not? and if you did, why? 

justice is my favorite character in all of dragon age. i'm hopeful that they bring him back again. he has so much potential and his being a spirit would probably allow for him to show up in more places. who knows, but i'm hoping.

you and me both

[LightningSamus]

Yeah he's one of the best characters, people probably just hated him based off his looks.

[kag666]

I didn't like him at all.  He seemed too forced onto the party and I couldn't wait to leave him at the keep.  If I recall he was yet another character that yaps about a bunch of stuff as if he's got all the answers, then when you ask something you actually want to know he has no clue.

Anders wasn't too annoying, and once rockhead Nathaniel came around he was tolerable.  Any input from Oghren elicited the usual eye-rolling.

I admit I was spoiled by the Alistar, Leliana, and Morrigan party and everything else just falls short.  If Dragon Age 2 was playing your Warden and assembling your party from Origins to make a run at Flemeth 2.0 I would be giddy.  Scrapping it all is such a waste imo.

Cue the, "Some people don't like change, but change is what they must get because it's for the best..." speech and stare.

[HighKingOfGondor]

Justice isn't one of my favorite characters, but I like him. The idea of a spirit trapped in a dead body is pretty sweet.