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[wickedgoodreed]

CalJones wrote...

My current game (first time with a Cousland female) has turned into a bit of an Alistair hate game. The subject of her family's massacre came up at Flemmeth's hut. A moment later I clicked on him accidentally and did the "do you want to speak about Duncan convo" and he asked if she'd lost anyone close. YES I JUST TOLD YOU, MORON!

This! I have a difficult time understanding how a Cousland female could be in a romance with Alistair. My Cousland could emphathize with him in regards to losing Duncan, but Alistair somehow manages to forget that her entire family was massacred not once but TWICE over the course of the various conversations you have with him. With the other origins I guess his dialogue in those instances is not so bad so its not entirely his fault, but with the human noble it just makes him come across as pretty self-centered and insensitive (or at the very least spectacularly dense and oblivious if given the benefit of the doubt). It's almost funny considering how he gives Morrigan a hard time for being insensitive about Fergus when you first enter Lothering.

Wynne on the other hand was actually comforting to my Cousland when the story of how she became a Warden came up. Plus, I used Bryce's last words to her about Couslands always putting duty first as a motivation for the character so Wynne's nagging about duty didn't bother me quite as much...at least when playing a human noble that is.

[EccentricSage]

In all fairness I think Alistair's 'forgetfulness' was probably a flaw in the dialogue trees that got overlooked.

His bickering with other companions and such are what make me want to strangle him sometimes. Alistair, of course Morrigan is going to hate you... you were openly hostile to her the very moment you laid ayes on her, and you even managed to look like a total ingrate after Flemeth saved our asses. It's really a testiment to my fem mage's complex and desperation that she could be interested in him after that obvious show of prejudice, and his subsequent shows of ignorance. IE: Believing Lelliana is an innocent chantry mouse when she's really a deadly bard who's killed for the fun of the game. Kowtowing to Wynne who only pretends to be wise and unselfish when she is really willing to do amost everything she tells us not to do. Getting mad at me for not wanting to kill Zevran even though he's too much a coward to do it himself. Heck, there are a lot of times he gets mad and then contradicts himself, or contradicts himself in the fact that he gets mad. He tells her an abomination must be slain, she does it, he gets mad.

It's the most dysfunctional relationship I've played in DA:O lol Just wait until my mage finds out he's not going to make her queen. Though she might figure that out ahead of time and just dump him. Zevran's been putting the moves on her and I can tell I accidentally triggered the Leliana romance. Damn my flirtatious mage!

I wish she could run off with Teagan. *waggles eyebrows*

Modifié par EccentricSage, 28 août 2010 - 07:15 .

[EccentricSage]

Double post

Modifié par EccentricSage, 28 août 2010 - 06:33 .

[CalJones]

Heh. You put (almost) all my frustrations with Alistair into that post. It is indeed a shame you can't run off with Teagan. It's also a shame you can't suggest Anora marry Fergus (although I guess most may feel that's a bit hard on Fergus. Still, it's a nice way to secure Cousland dominance if you're not up for marrying Alistair yourself).

Alistair really incurred the wrath of my Dalish (now deleted) - she was aiming to keep him away from the thrones so they could run the wardens together. He was happy when she said she'd backed Anora instead, so I thought everything would be cool. However, I made the fatal mistake of hardening him (my Dalish was a cynical cow) and then allowing him to duel Loghain. He promptly declared himself king, threw Anora in the tower and dumped my Dalish wench in front of all her companions. Needless to say, she as livid that first shem she had ever trusted had betrayed her, she let him take the final blow on the archdemon and went back to her people. (But hey, I got that pesky Warden Commander achievement at least).

Back on the subject of Wynne, she actually made me laugh in this playthrough with one of her responses to my snarky replies (it was the one where she talks about sitting in a chair eating pudding). I guess the rancid old sow isn't 100% bad.

[wickedgoodreed]

EccentricSage wrote...

In all fairness I think Alistair's 'forgetfulness' was probably a flaw in the dialogue trees that got overlooked.

Except that in response he actually pretty much says,
"Oh! How could I forget?" I do see how the structure of the dialogue tree bears some of the fault for
putting Alistair in the position to begin with, but given that there's actual written dialogue
where he admits he forgot I'm less inclined to let him off the hook. Like you mention though, there's plenty of other reasons to want to strangle Alistair regardless. lol

[EccentricSage]

CalJones wrote...

Heh. You put (almost) all my frustrations with Alistair into that post. It is indeed a shame you can't run off with Teagan. It's also a shame you can't suggest Anora marry Fergus (although I guess most may feel that's a bit hard on Fergus. Still, it's a nice way to secure Cousland dominance if you're not up for marrying Alistair yourself).
Alistair really incurred the wrath of my Dalish (now deleted) - she was aiming to keep him away from the thrones so they could run the wardens together. He was happy when she said she'd backed Anora instead, so I thought everything would be cool. However, I made the fatal mistake of hardening him (my Dalish was a cynical cow) and then allowing him to duel Loghain. He promptly declared himself king, threw Anora in the tower and dumped my Dalish wench in front of all her companions. Needless to say, she as livid that first shem she had ever trusted had betrayed her, she let him take the final blow on the archdemon and went back to her people. (But hey, I got that pesky Warden Commander achievement at least).
Back on the subject of Wynne, she actually made me laugh in this playthrough with one of her responses to my snarky replies (it was the one where she talks about sitting in a chair eating pudding). I guess the rancid old sow isn't 100% bad.

Ouch!!!   Maybe I've been giving him too much credit.  I didn't know he'd defy your plans with him if you have the decency to let him be the one to face Loghain.  I think it really says something about who Alistair is deep down inside, that he would become that impulsive and selfish once hardened.  If he expressed his interest in the throne, and a sence of duty before hand, instead of surprising everyone and publickly humiliating you, it would not be so bad.

And you know what, if you read the Calling, Alistair's dad, Maric, had no problem with the idea of taking an elf or a mage as his wife.  Maybe the people would take issue if he tried to make her Queen, but Ferelden politics don't seem to work that way exactly.  Give her a different title besides Queen, and less political power, and Ferelden would get the **** over it.  All the while the wife could carry out organising and rebuilding the Ferelden Grey Wardens.  For ****'s sake, SHE IS ONE OF THE HEROS OF FERELDEN!  Who stopped an entire BLIGHT.

[Sarah1281]

Maric wanted to make an Orlesian bard elf Queen. That was just not going to happen. Giving her a title who not have worked either as, even if she hadn't been a traitor, she was still an elf who didn't prove herself quite as thoroughly as the Warden does and she CAN be chancellor or Teyrna.

[EccentricSage]

wickedgoodreed wrote...

EccentricSage wrote...

In all fairness I think Alistair's 'forgetfulness' was probably a flaw in the dialogue trees that got overlooked.

Except that in response he actually pretty much says,
"Oh! How could I forget?" I do see how the structure of the dialogue tree bears some of the fault for
putting Alistair in the position to begin with, but given that there's actual written dialogue
where he admits he forgot I'm less inclined to let him off the hook. Like you mention though, there's plenty of other reasons to want to strangle Alistair regardless. lol

That's right, good point!  i think it was realy a cop out on the part of the developers who were trying to trim back the dialogue trees because of budget issues, but that doesn't make it any less cannon unless David Gaider were to come out and say 'please excuse Alistair, that was our mistake'.

I really think Alistair is turning out to be this character who exists to break our hearts.  At first his good points seem to outweigh the flaws, and you feal a little sorry for him, and enjoy him, but with more experience and experimentation in the game, he really turns out to be a bit of a stupid dick in a lot of scenarios.  Now I don't know how I feal about him.

Funny that big bad Zevran has always been the one to not let me down.  It's kind of like Spike and Angel towards the end of the Buffy series.  LOL 

[EccentricSage]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maric wanted to make an Orlesian bard elf Queen. That was just not going to happen. Giving her a title who not have worked either as, even if she hadn't been a traitor, she was still an elf who didn't prove herself quite as thoroughly as the Warden does and she CAN be chancellor or Teyrna.

Ooooh, you're thinking of the first elf.  I'm thinking of the second elf.  I don't want to be too specific and spoil people who haven't read the book.  He fell in love a second time, and this one was not a traitor.  (That man was all about the elvin loven'. lol )



I agree.  The Warden can be Tyrna!  that is the second most powerful position in Ferelden politics!  Yet she can't sacrafice that power and become his wife, even if she so chooses?  I understand the heir issue, but then he shouldn't marry any fellow grey warden.  Deap down inside, despite what he tries to be on the surface, he is racist, and he lets the racism of the Ferelden humans shape his first decision, whicjh is to dump you.  That's pretty F'd up.

[Sarah1281]

I know all about Fiona, too, and by that point he wasn't naive enough to think that he could allow an Orlesian Grey Warden elven mage to be Queen. And he can't just do whatever he wants and expect Ferelden to '****ing deal with it' as then he'd have rebellions on his hands, no one would confirm his successor, the people wouldn't accept his decisions...he's not an all-powerful god, you know, and his powers have limits.



I don't think Alistiar has to be racist in that scene. He says 'Look, my wife will be Queen. That's how these things work. You're an elf. No one will put up with you being Queen. Anora is nearby and ready to assume the throne if I try to pull **** like that which, as I am not an absolute monarch, I cannot do. As I'd rather not be deposed before my coronation, we can't date anymore.'

[EccentricSage]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I know all about Fiona, too, and by that point he wasn't naive enough to think that he could allow an Orlesian Grey Warden elven mage to be Queen. And he can't just do whatever he wants and expect Ferelden to '****ing deal with it' as then he'd have rebellions on his hands, no one would confirm his successor, the people wouldn't accept his decisions...he's not an all-powerful god, you know, and his powers have limits.

I don't think Alistiar has to be racist in that scene. He says 'Look, my wife will be Queen. That's how these things work. You're an elf. No one will put up with you being Queen. Anora is nearby and ready to assume the throne if I try to pull **** like that which, as I am not an absolute monarch, I cannot do. As I'd rather not be deposed before my coronation, we can't date anymore.'

I'm trying not to spoil the book for people, but I guess I can't control what you do.

Anyhow, that's not how it went down.  It was not Maric who made the decision.  That's all I'm going to say.

I do think Alistair is being rasist.  if you can make an elf Tyrna, why can't you make that elf your wife, but with stipulations so that everyone does not freek the **** out?  We may have to agree to disagree on this, but considering some of the boons that you can request, it doesn't add up, IMO.

[Giggles_Manically]

It does make sense that an Elf cant be Queen in Ferelden.

What with people being all rascist and such.



However you can:

Get the Dalish a new homeland.

Become a Teyrn/Teryna

Become the Bann of the Alienage.

Get freedom for the mages.



People may be able to swallow some of those things but overall, people dont want anything but a human on the throne. Just like Orzamar does not want anyone but a dwarf on the throne.

[Sarah1281]

Seriously, the books have been out since before the game. I don't think there's really a very big concern about 'spoiling' it for someone especially as it's the spoiler section.



I also know that Fiona was very insistent on pretending her child was born of two humans. She didn't do it to be mean or mysterious or crazy or whatever. She did it because she couldn't leave the Wardens and was worried about her son's future if she tried to keep him or Maric raised him.



What stipulations could possibly work? 'Okay, I know I'm the King but I'm going to marry this elf who is not goign to be considered the Queen.' Actually, the fact that you can become Teyrna makes no freaking sense just like the 'let's free the Circle' boon doesn't. Alistair cannot marry an elf and be King. It's impossible. That makes Ferelden at large racist, yes, but if you're going to yell at him for being racist then remember that you're the one who put him on the throne (letting him kill Loghain seizing the throne aside). Elves are considered largely subhuman by Ferelden at large. Would they really accept a lesser being as their King's wife?



(Note: I am not calling elves subhuman or lesser beings but you know that's how most Fereldens see them.)

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

Y'know, I'd love to say to Wynne "You know that sweet Chantry sister you like so much? She used to an Orlesian assassin who routinely seduced her victims."
Then watch as she had an embolism.

No doubt the difference is that Wynne perceives Leliana as repentant.  Which I guess she is, unless you harden her.  Wynne tries to "reform" Zevran in similar fashion and he commits the unpardonable offense of not allowing Wynne to mentor him, deflecting her condescension with talk of magical bosoms and the like.  So it's little wonder that in Wynne's chats, she is most dismissive of a Warden relationship with either him or Morrigan.

As for Alistair being "racist" for not trying to appoint an elf queen, usually he is dinged for naivete and in one of the instances he actually sees the political situation clearly...  Heh.  The irony.

[Sarah1281]

No doubt the difference is that Wynne perceives Leliana as repentant. Which I guess she is, unless you harden her.

When, exactly, does a hardened Leliana say that she has no regrets about her past and can't wait to go back to ****ing with people as a bard?

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

No doubt the difference is that Wynne perceives Leliana as repentant. Which I guess she is, unless you harden her.

When, exactly, does a hardened Leliana say that she has no regrets about her past and can't wait to go back to ****ing with people as a bard?

The whole dialogue about hardening her is telling her not to feel badly about who she is.  That doesn't mean she wouldn't feel regret.  Zevran has regrets, too, though he doesn't "repent" of being an assassin.

[CalJones]

She does have a dialogue with Alistair which starts of with him talking about her stealthiness and blending in, and ends with her saying she wouldn't be remembered by the men she'd seduced as they'd be dead. (Alistair is a little freaked out).

She's teasing him a little, but she certainly doesn't sound repentant about that, nor in the conversation she has with you about how she got information from her targets.

[Giggles_Manically]

Leliana isint freaked out by her being a bard or doing bardish things to people.

She freaks out that she is like Marjorlane, or thinks she is.



Her crisis is that she is becoming or is Marjorlane, and that obviously scares her. She rembers her old life, and does feel somewhat bad I believe, but on the whole she accepts that she was a bard.

Hardening her, is simply saying to her, you are a bard accept that.

Leaving her unchanged just reinforces her faith in the Maker, and makes her start to leave her old life.

[Zjarcal]

Leliana's banter with Alistair as well as that conversation in camp about getting info from her targets prove that she did enjoy her life as a Bard, or at least she certainly thought it was fun. Can't say that I blame her for saying this as a Bard's life sure is entertaining.



While she doesn't sound repentant in those convos, it's clear that she does want to move away from that lifestyle. There is a banter with Morrigan where she says "at least I regret the evil I made" (or something like that). Then comes the whole deal with Marjolaine which is a reminder of what she could become if she were to continue her life as a bard and she has her crisis moment.



Funny thing, despite the "hardened" tag, I've always felt that an unhardened Leliana is a stronger willed person than a hardened one.



Damn, the Wynnie the Poo 2.0 thread sure seems to be going off topic.

[Addai]

It's really Wynne's perception of the two, Zevran vs. Leliana, that I was getting at. One says the things that Wynne wants to hear, the other doesn't. Though I guess she would still try to warn the Warden about a relationship with Leliana?

[Giggles_Manically]

Yes she does.

Its one of the nicer ones, and not an charachter assassination at all.



Its more about duty, sacrifice, and the selfishness of love.

However when the Warden falls truly head over heels, she recants and apologizes.



Which is strange because to Wynne the Warden would be in more peril now.

[Zjarcal]

Yeah, if Wynne's concern is that the Warden will put love ahead of duty, the Warden being head over heels over someone would seem to be a bigger problem.



In Wynne's mind of course.

[wickedgoodreed]

What I find odd is that Wynne calls Leliana "guileless." That's definitely a surprising choice of words to me considering her past, which makes me question Wynne's perception of her.

[Sarah1281]

Maybe Wynne thought she sucked at being a bard and that's why she left?

[Giggles_Manically]

Wynne makes no sense at all, in her views. She justs repeats nonsense and her chantry twisted views onto you.



I wish this was a dialouge option when talking to her: