330 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

She's angry? I've said a lot of things I didn't mean in the heat of the moment. I suspect many of us have. If you haven't, give me your address and I'll come stand on your toe until you join us....

[Zjarcal]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I just hope the people here aren't the type to insist that there are only four reasons to dislike Wynne:
1) You hate your grandmother
2) You hate mentors
3) You hate wisdom
4) You think you know better than everybody else

Anyone who hates Wynne instantly falls under these categories.

Is that so? So you somehow have managed to get in the brains of anyone who dislikes her and have proof that we instantly fall into those categories?

I hate my grandmother. I hate mentors. I hate wisdom. I think I know better than everybody else. Wow, I can't believe you were able to uncover all those dirty secrets about me just because I said I hated Wynne. *sarcasm*

Perhaps next time you'd like to do some thinking for a second before making a comment as ridiculous as that one.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Being told that Wynne hopes the darkspawn take you when she knows that doing that would doom the country (and yes, she really does believe that or so she tells you) is still a WTF moment for me. Justification for this? 

Extreme emotions of the moment seems reasonable enough for me. She wouldn't be the only one to curse in anger further than what they really wanted in calmness, and it isn't like she's around afterwards to take it back (or think it through) after calming down any.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

 I do sincerely hope that you aren't serious. I dislike Wynne. She does not in any way remind me of either of my grandmothers. I really have no problem with mentor figures if I'm convinced that they are in any way wise and qualified to mentor me. I don't feel that I know better than everybody else although I will concede that I've long been convinced that I know better than Wynne.

Sounds like you had some really awesome grandmothers then, cause a few of mine are exactly like Wynne. If you dislike Wynne because of one little thing, then that is your problem anyway. I know plenty of reasons to dislike or wish a great amount of certain undeserved ill will that many on here seem to want on a certain individual, but Wynne is not one of those people; at least not if you're a blood mage. There are immeasurable countless more who are worse than Wynne.

But let's talk about why you DO dislike Wynne then. If not one of those four, then why? If you plan on preaching to me on the count of her "holier than thou" attitude, that comes with age, so it cannot stand on its own.

Perhaps next time you'd like to do some thinking for a second before making a comment as ridiculous as that one.

Sounds like you took what I said a little personal. I hope I didn't hurt your feelings; maybe a hug will help.

I took careful consideration of all the reasons why not to like Wynne, and they're all really horrible to boot in the first place. All minor and outside reasons are relative in the end, I do not see how other reasons avoid colliding with the four already mentioned.

1. She reminds you of your grandmother - could serve an ill omen in reminder of a grandmother in real life, or whatever, who painted your hide red because you cursed at home or lectured you on how to promptly cook a meal, just some examples. The same can be said if Wynne reminds you of anyone else: mother, father, any member of family. People who dislike Wynne because she reminds an individual of another is essentially under this category.

2. Wynne is a mentor - those who are mentors are viewed at as enlightening examples, no? Does this include the ones who are often rightfully or wrongfully judged as condescending and arrogant? If not, then ignore this, but I believe the preachy and quick-to-blame jockeys can easily fall under this category. I believe so because mentors can easily lose themselves to their knowledge and enlightenment, therefore basking in their almighty insight. Some people can get cocky, and those who dislike an individual because of a little befouled lecturing and swampy remarks can fall under here.

3. Wynne has wisdom - This would rather be a blatant reason and is the most childish reason to dislike Wynne, so if anyone who is jealous that someone is smarter than themselves, this would be the prime example. Although to be jealous of someone is to depreciate your own material, sentimental, and personal values.

4. Those who have a problem with outside authority can be (CAN be, pay attention now) as authoritarian, which means they demand, sometimes threaten, complete control over their operation. If your Warden is cocky and arrogant and has no reason to spend time formulating battle plans with anyone/anything other than his/her left and right hands, then those people fall under this category. Same can be said for those who want to make a right decision.

The only good, and I mean righteous, reason why one shouldn't show appreciation for Wynne is because she tries to rat out the mage Warden (if a blood mage) in the circle tower. At that point in the resolution of the circle chapter, it is all about survival. Other reasons are just not worth spilling your heart into. I am just not gonna let one little thing here and there be the difference between being respected and worthy of my group and hanging on the gallows in Denerim because she tried to involve herself in my love life with Morrigan. Everyone has got their own problems, deal with it. 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 23 août 2010 - 09:28 .

[Sarah1281]

I dislike Wynne not because I think that she is a horrible person - although she does have some extremely bad qualities - but rather because she annoys the hell out of me. Just like IRL, does there need to be some point-by-point analysis of why this is so? Some people are just annoying and to me Wynne falls into that category. I'm sure you have a character in the game (or in other games or in a movie/book/TV show) that does the same.

Edit: I'm not actually trying to convince anyone that they should 'see the light' and abandon their Wynne love, you know.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 août 2010 - 09:19 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Wynne gets on my nerves alot.
The woman goes on and on and on and on and ON, about what your duty as a warden is, what a warden is, and how you should act.
While she is not a warden, has only read about them, and is preaching from the chantry side of the field.

Overall she tries to pull of wise, but Sten in DA, and Samara in ME2 come off as wiser people.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 23 août 2010 - 09:22 .

[Zjarcal]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I dislike Wynne not because I think that she is a horrible person - although she does have some extremely bad qualities - but rather because she annoys the hell out of me. Just like IRL, does there need to be some point-by-point analysis of why this is so? Some people are just annoying and to me Wynne falls into that category. I'm sure you have a character in the game (or in other games or in a movie/book/TV show) that does the same.

Edit: I'm not actually trying to convince anyone that they should 'see the light' and abandon their Wynne love, you know.

Indeed.

Everyone has their different reasons to love and hate the characters in this game and that's fine. Trying to convince someone that they're wrong for hating a character or worse, claiming that hating a character means that you hate your grandmother, is not.

[Bahlgan]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

I dislike Wynne not because I think that she is a horrible person - although she does have some extremely bad qualities - but rather because she annoys the hell out of me. Just like IRL, does there need to be some point-by-point analysis of why this is so? Some people are just annoying and to me Wynne falls into that category. I'm sure you have a character in the game (or in other games or in a movie/book/TV show) that does the same.[/quote]

Just... She annoys you? That doesn't quite CUT it. There are many things that can annoy the Warden with Wynne. Is it because of her reminding you of anyone? Do you depreciate knowledge for some other reason than jealousy? (BTW Fahrenheit 451 is an awesome book) Do you disapprove of her condescending? Or is it because YOU as a RL individual, or Warden, are a tyrannical authoritarian, power-mad, red meat eating overseer? I am just trying to figure it out, because you still have not fully explained yourself. 

And yes, Sten is annoying to me, because of his damned "Qunari are better than everyone" attitude, which could fall under Wynne's category number 2. If the Qunari are truly better than everyone, can anyone care to explain how the Fereldens pushed them out of their nation 150 years ago?

[quoteEdit: I'm not actually trying to convince anyone that they should 'see the light' and abandon their Wynne love, you know. [/quote]

I know that, but, again, you've not yet explained your "dislike" for her either.

[quote]Indeed.

Everyone has their different reasons to love and hate the characters in this game and that's fine. Trying to convince someone that they're wrong for hating a character or worse, claiming that hating a character means that you hate your grandmother, is not.[/quote]

In case this antagonizing statement IS directed towards me, I will answer anyway:

Tis a statement originally posted by Sarah, and I merely followed suit, BUT I will stand up for myself and inform that just because you hate your grandmother doesn't mean you should hate Wynne also, I agree with that. But let's not forget the other three reasons previously stated in her argument. 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 23 août 2010 - 09:40 .

[Addai]

Bahlgan wrote...

The only good, and I mean righteous, reason why one shouldn't show appreciation for Wynne is because she tries to rat out the mage Warden (if a blood mage) in the circle tower. At that point in the resolution of the circle chapter, it is all about survival. Other reasons are just not worth spilling your heart into. I am just not gonna let one little thing here and there be the difference between being respected and worthy of my group and hanging on the gallows in Denerim because she tried to involve herself in my love life with Morrigan. Everyone has got their own problems, deal with it. 

Wow, uh, you're pretty judgmental in your passions about the game.

I recruit Wynne about half the time, but don't use her and don't like her.  I often play mages and Morrigan's setup much more fits my preferred playstyle.

Character-wise, my main reason to dislike her is that she's a hypocrite.  Of all the NPCs, she also changes the least.  She is what she is and she's going to stay that way and lecture you about it.  Doesn't make her a terrible person, but it does make me dislike her.  So what?  It's really not that deep.  If someone wants to sing her praises, that's fine by me.

[Sarah1281]

Just... She annoys you? That doesn't quite CUT it.

I'm not allowed to dislike someone because they annoy me? That's news to me. Do you like the people that annoy you?

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not allowed to dislike someone because they annoy me?

So there is no particular reason why she annoys you? Or is it pretty much the same crap that everyone else says? 

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I'm not allowed to dislike someone because they annoy me?

So there is no particular reason why she annoys you? Or is it pretty much the same crap that everyone else says? 

I disagree that it's 'crap' and yes, I do tend to agree with most of the complaints about Wynne. There's really no need to be so dismissive of people's arguments just because you disagree with them, you know. It's really condescending.

Edit: Why are you willing to be so much more reasonable and objective about Loghain who you hate than Wynne who you actually like? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 23 août 2010 - 09:48 .

[Zjarcal]

EDIT: Considering your last post described any arguments against Wynne as "crap", I really don't see the point in posting anything here anymore.

Sarah is right, your attitude is very condescending.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 23 août 2010 - 09:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wynne gets on my nerves alot.
The woman goes on and on and on and on and ON, about what your duty as a warden is, what a warden is, and how you should act.
While she is not a warden, has only read about them, and is preaching from the chantry side of the field.

Overall she tries to pull of wise, but Sten in DA, and Samara in ME2 come off as wiser people.

Strangely, I think well of her because of her efforts to distill a sense of self-respect and honor in the Warden. Simply because she is not a Warden doesn't mean she doesn't have true points: Wardens exist not only for what they see themselves as, after all, but how the rest of the world sees them. If Wardens don't remember that others look to them as heroes and protectors, if they become to self-centered, self-interested, and self-focused as an organization, the rest of the world becomes more like people like Loghain, who look at the Wardens with suspicion and even fear. The Wardens can't have a presence without the acceptance of the rest, and so even the most self-centric Warden, if for no other reason than self-interest, should recognize the Duty that Wardens have for the world. Even if you, personally, don't like having a concious to nag you, it really is a good thing to have.


Much of Wynn's talks are similar to aspects of Western military training's character development for officers. Character development is a surprisingly large part of the non-tactical side of the officer corps: not only of themselves, but trying to push it and encourage it in the ranks as well. It's a large part of why modern Western militaries are some of the most disciplined, restrained, and self-correcting armies in history.

[Bahlgan]

Zjarcal wrote...

EDIT: Considering your last post described any arguments against Wynne as "crap", I really don't see the point in posting anything here anymore.

Sarah is right, your attitude is very condescending.

THIS is ridiculous! You and Sarah, and many others, dislike Wynne for reasons which can be pinned on just about anyone, and I am being called condescending? It IS crap as long as she is unable to justify herself under a reason. If you two enjoy poking at ME for standing up for an individual (granted it may be a computer animated character) and you're gonna call me condescending for calling you two out, then go ahead and call me condescending. It doesn't change the fact that you two have some serious issues with getting along with others over some spilt milk. You two please get over yourselves. I am just gonna stick around here and continue my posts.

Edit: Why are you willing to be so much more reasonable and objective about Loghain who you hate than Wynne who you actually like?

So you dare to accuse Wynne of being worse than Loghain? Last I checked, murder and treason were a LOT worse of crimes than condescending others and preaching them. Compared to what Loghain did, I am more willing to forgive Wynne for what she did. I cannot believe YOU wouldn't. 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 24 août 2010 - 01:31 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bahlgan wrote...
3. Wynne has wisdom - This would rather be a blatant reason and is the most childish reason to dislike Wynne, so if anyone who is jealous that someone is smarter than themselves, this would be the prime example. Although to be jealous of someone is to depreciate your own material, sentimental, and personal values.

What wisdom?
I am really curious, what in particular do you find wise about Wynne? Because I saw no wisdom at all, only pretentions of wsidom. No once did I go "hmm that's deep" from all of Wynne's dialogue. I saw a wisdom in all companions, marked by their specific experiences, but I saw no wisdom at all in Wynne. She made absolutely no mark on me intellectualy or emotionally. 

She talks about the Wardens as if she knows them, when the reality is she knows nothing except children's tales. If that's the "wisdom" you are talking about, then kudos to you, I dislike her for that supposed "wisdom" that I could get from any child that happens to read fantasy books (or Cailan for that matter).

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

EDIT: Considering your last post described any arguments against Wynne as "crap", I really don't see the point in posting anything here anymore.

Sarah is right, your attitude is very condescending.

THIS is ridiculous! You and Sarah, and many others, dislike Wynne for reasons which can be pinned on just about anyone, and I am being called condescending? It IS crap as long as she is unable to justify herself under a reason. If you two enjoy poking at ME for standing up for an individual (granted it may be a computer animated character) and you're gonna call me condescending for calling you two out, then go ahead and call me condescending. It doesn't change the fact that you two have some serious issues with getting along with others over some spilt milk. You two please get over yourselves. I am just gonna stick around here and continue my posts.

See, here's the thing. A belief is, generally, not condescending. Not liking someone is not condescending. Just so we're clear, condescending means 'Acting in a way that betrays a feeling of patronizing superiority.' You can act condescending towards someone or dislike someone in a condescending manner but the simple act of disliking someone cannot be condescending.

Telling us the reasons that we dislike Wynne even though we've said, repeatedly, that that is not the case is condescending. You know why? You are acting like you know our opinions better than we do and the reason why we hold those and, frankly, you can't.

We dislike Wynne for reasons that can be pinned on just about anyone? Say that's true. So what? Say I disliked someone because the first time I met them I caught them telling a lie and now I think that they're dishonest. Does everybody lie? Yes. Is it, perhaps, fair to hold that one lie against them? Probably not. Is it human to do so anyway and to let that first opinion dictate you how feel about a person? Of course. Is it in any way condescending to do so? No.

I dislike Wynne for annoying me greatly. I do not like how she keeps talking about how old she is even though she doesn't look or act it, I dislike her for inviting herself along without asking me, I dislike her for the way she acts like an expert on GWs and tries to tell me how a GW should act despite not really having any experience with them, I dislike how she doesn't seem to think I can handle having a SO and defeat the Blight at the same time, I dislike how she spouts platitudes all the time, I dislike her telling Aneirin to come back even though he was miserable there and they tried to kill him, I dislike how she's become a mouthpiece for the Chantry that took her son. I dislike how the dialogue won't let you disagree with her without coming off as a petulent child.

Does Wynne have her reasons for this? Of course. I've never claimed that she didn't. Does understanding her reasons mean I have to like her any more? Hardly. I don't know if you're some kind of saint IRL who must have solid irrefutable reasons to dislike someone but I'm not. I can not like people because they irritate me. I wouldn't hate them for it but I definitely wouldn't like spending time with them. Wynne irritates me. Besides my fairly reason-free annoyance, I also have reasons that add to that irritation.

It's not that you're standing up for Wynne that's the problem. It's that you are refusing to respect that others can have different opinions, that people can dislike others without being able to write an essay on the subject, that everyone who dislikes Wynne has to do so for reasons that you approve of (and are appropriately stupid). Telling us to leave? Also condescending. Acting like we must be horrible people for not liking a freaking video game character? Hardly appreciated or rational.

Why are you taking it so personally that we don't like Wynne? I know you said that she reminds you of your grandmother but she is NOT your grandmother. We are not insulting your grandmother.

Edit: Why are you willing to be so much more reasonable and objective about Loghain who you hate than Wynne who you actually like?

So you dare to accuse Wynne of being worse than Loghain? Last I checked, murder and treason were a LOT worse of crimes than condescending others and preaching them. Compared to what Loghain did, I am more willing to forgive Wynne for what she did. I cannot believe YOU wouldn't. 

 I reallly have to wonder sometimes what posts you're reading as they clearly aren't mine. How does mentioning that I think you are more reasonable and objective towards Loghain (as much as you hate him and want him to die) than Wynne mean that I think she's a monster or has done something that can be compared to the things that Loghain has done? 

I meant that we've debated over Loghain and while it has gotten frustrating at points you handled it much more rationally than you are handling this. You didn't come up with narrow-minded and bogus reasons that I or anyone else must have had for being fans of Loghain and you didn't dismiss what we said as crap.

Here, you insisted that the only possible way anyone could hate Wynne was if they hated their grandmother, hated mentors, hated wisdom, or thought they knew better than anyone else. Here you've called opposing opinions crap.

Based just on that, I think its safe to say that you either feel more passionately about your love for Wynne than your hatred for Loghain or you are certainly coming across that way because your posts in the Loghain threads didn't attack people and didn't take defense of Loghain as personally as you're taking critique of Wynne.

You are being unreasonable right now and if you reply to this with another bizarre rant that makes it clear that you're not actually reading what I wrote then I'm not going to even bother responding.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 24 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[TJPags]

Bahlgan wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

EDIT: Considering your last post described any arguments against Wynne as "crap", I really don't see the point in posting anything here anymore.

Sarah is right, your attitude is very condescending.

THIS is ridiculous! You and Sarah, and many others, dislike Wynne for reasons which can be pinned on just about anyone, and I am being called condescending? It IS crap as long as she is unable to justify herself under a reason. If you two enjoy poking at ME for standing up for an individual (granted it may be a computer animated character) and you're gonna call me condescending for calling you two out, then go ahead and call me condescending. It doesn't change the fact that you two have some serious issues with getting along with others over some spilt milk. You two please get over yourselves. I am just gonna stick around here and continue my posts.

Actually, they don't really "need" a reason to dislike Wynne.  Some people just rub others the wrong way.  For them, it's Wynne.

Edit: Why are you willing to be so much more reasonable and objective about Loghain who you hate than Wynne who you actually like?

So you dare to accuse Wynne of being worse than Loghain? Last I checked, murder and treason were a LOT worse of crimes than condescending others and preaching them. Compared to what Loghain did, I am more willing to forgive Wynne for what she did. I cannot believe YOU wouldn't. 

Yea, but Loghain did what he did for Ferelden.  He was saving Ferelden from the Orlesians.  Perfectly okay to do anything necessary to achive that goal.  And after all, it worked, didn't it?  Ferelden is safe from Orlais for all time now. /sarcasm

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why are you taking it so personally that we don't like Wynne? I know you said that she reminds you of your grandmother but she is NOT your grandmother. We are not insulting your grandmother.

Ha, I didn't read that. If that's indeed what caused him to be this narrowminded, then it might be best to leave it at that yea.

[Axekix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Bahlgan wrote...
3. Wynne has wisdom - This would rather be a blatant reason and is the most childish reason to dislike Wynne, so if anyone who is jealous that someone is smarter than themselves, this would be the prime example. Although to be jealous of someone is to depreciate your own material, sentimental, and personal values.

What wisdom?
I am really curious, what in particular do you find wise about Wynne? Because I saw no wisdom at all, only pretentions of wsidom. No once did I go "hmm that's deep" from all of Wynne's dialogue. I saw a wisdom in all companions, marked by their specific experiences, but I saw no wisdom at all in Wynne. She made absolutely no mark on me intellectualy or emotionally.

I'd say Wynne has quite a bit of wisdom with regards to responsibility/duty and more specifically the chantry/mage "conflict."  It's much more apparent with a mage PC though, especially in her talks about the future of the tower after the Anerin side quest.

Personally I'm with the OP.  Pretty much all of the in-game relationships with party members consist of you listening to them about their problems.  Wynne is the only one who really lets you open up about your own.  I found it refreshing tbh.  And considering she never really had much choice in her lot in life, I found her relatable experience welcome on my Wardens.

[TJPags]

jln.francisco wrote...

Actually, they don't really "need" a reason to dislike Wynne. Some people just rub others the wrong way. For them, it's Wynne.

There's also that she's a complete hypocrite and a detriment to advancing the needs of mages everywhere. If this were about personality I'd be entirely indifferent to her. But it's that she pretends she;s this incredibly enlightened human being when all she is is someone who's bought into the power structure keeping her oppressed. That she actively seeks to preserve this power structure and destroy everything that challenges it doesn't help.

Yea, but she knows stories . . .about GRIFFONS!!!!!!!!!!!

(I really like that dialogue option)

[KnightofPhoenix]

Axekix wrote...
I'd say Wynne has quite a bit of wisdom with regards to responsibility/duty and more specifically the chantry/mage "conflict."  It's much more apparent with a mage PC though, especially in her talks about the future of the tower after the Anerin side quest.

Responsability and duty? And yet she has no problem wishing death to the Warden who supposedely is responsable for the well being of others, for being a malefcarum (though anyone with a slight bit of knowldge about the Wardens know that they accept blood mages) or for not caring about Andraste's ashes? Eum no, sorry. Saw absolutely no wisdom in that. You could have for sure, but I didn't. Surely that doesn't make me a "hater of wisdom" does it?

And her views about the Chantry / Mage issue is borderline apalling to be honest. She asks Anerin to go back to the very circle that wanted to kill him, while he was happy and fullfilled being free. That's just idiotic. Excluding the fact that he was an apostate, he is also a Dalish Keeper, whom Templars and Chantry distrust (and we know from Awakening that they are learning ways to fight them).  

I did play a mage pc. Twice. And I saw nothing of that wisdom. And once, I was playing a Chantry sympathiser even. And I dont' recall her saying anything useful other than "the circle must be rebuilt". She possibly even asks the Warden to do that if I recall, which is not Warden business that she was bragging about earlier.
It could be because, had I been a mage, I would have been a Libertarian. But still, I saw more intelligence and foresight from Irving, despite not liking how he surrenders to the Templars, then Wynne.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 août 2010 - 02:13 .