330 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

CalJones wrote...

That doesn't sound too different from my usual diet. Just add canned tuna and protein drinks.

Mixed together, it's balanced and healthy. Broken out the way I did, trust me, an older person would be massively distracted. Each week has a theme, as it were.

[CalJones]

Heh yes, I know what you're trying to do there. I imagine Oghren wouldn't be the worst smelling person in camp...

[Sarah1281]

What's wrong with Wynn pushing what she sees? If she didn't push her ideals, she would be pushing someone elses and couldn't stand by her own feelings.

What bothers me is she tries to come off as an expert who the actual Warden should listen to and should base their actions after when she doesn't actually know any more than any random person on the street who has heard stories about how awesome the Wardens are. She comes on too strongly about things she's not qualified to lecture about.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

What's wrong with Wynn pushing what she sees? If she didn't push her ideals, she would be pushing someone elses and couldn't stand by her own feelings.

What bothers me is she tries to come off as an expert who the actual Warden should listen to and should base their actions after when she doesn't actually know any more than any random person on the street who has heard stories about how awesome the Wardens are. She comes on too strongly about things she's not qualified to lecture about.

Not only this, but she lectures about duty to either a human noble or dwarf noble who really doesn't need to hear it.

Ah well, this was supposed to be a Wynne love thread but all the psychologizing about Wynne haters despising wisdom and our grandmothers got us riled up.  LOL

[Bahlgan]

[quote]Addai67 wrote...

Not only this, but she lectures about duty to either a human noble or dwarf noble who really doesn't need to hear it.

Ah well, this was supposed to be a Wynne love thread but all the psychologizing about Wynne haters despising wisdom and our grandmothers got us riled up.  LOL
[/quote]

It was indeed, I have not forgotten. But there is no avoiding it; there will always be some intolerable person, who always has to hate someone because of one little thing, who always finds some way to shoot down a character even during a love/appreciation thread. It truly is too bad. Brings tears to the eyes of even the most strong-willed of citizens.

[quote]I didn't happen to believe what you believe. My goodness, I must hate wisdom.[/quote] 
I didn't believe Wynne said anything worthwile about the Wardens at all, due to the fact that she is very ignorant of them. If I am lookign for info on the Wadens, I would listen to Duncan, Riordan and Alsitair, thank you.[/quote]

So if you were to be horrible at mathematics because you couldn't guess what two plus two meant and I were to say you suck at math and need some serious lessons in tutoring (which you could also use at keeping a civil conversation against those who don't have the same beliefs as you), would I be instantly discredited because I am ignorant? Sure I would be a completely rude guy to bluntly and indiscriminately bellow how you cannot add or subtract, but hey sometimes the truth hurts.

[quote]Oh, so I must enjoy what you enjoy, so I don't get labelled as a hater of wisdom by your eminiscence? [/quote]

I don't know what to laugh at; either you are trying to turn words around on me out of desperate context, or you really are not taking appropriate time to listen to what I say in my posts. 

[quote]Excluding the fact that her analogy is false, as non-mage chidren are not kidnaped by the Chantry and thrown in a tower. Sisters and reverred mothers are so mostly so by their own choice (influenced by education, no doubt), or certainly excersize much more choice than circle mages.[/quote]

Who are you to say it's false? Are you always so left-minded? There are PLENTY of orphans who were raised in the Chantry against their will, mainly by monks and their own parents, and brought up in environments similar to that which orphan mages were brought up in. Several others in BOTH categories had nowhere else to go or simply had no choice in the matter. Just ask Alistair; Arl Eamon administered him into the Chantry against his own will. It happens to more than mages, savy? The analogy is not false, as to there are plenty of initiates and mages who are confined to their quarters throughout much of their lives.

[quote]I didn't romance Leliana. 
Nor would I give a damn about what she happens to say about who I decide to like. That's not a reason at all. I am completely indifferent to her opinion on this matter, aka it's as if I didn't even hear her opinion.

I suggest you stop making baseless assumptions, it truly is making your posts look like sad rants. A sad waste of time for all involved.[/quote]

Well for someone such as yourself to protest against her so as to disgrace every attempt she makes to try and keep the Warden calm under the heaviest of stressful moments, there is obviously something specific in the thread. Me pointing out Leliana was just an example of what she could have done or said to deter you from your mission. As far as you trying to scoot me off the thread, it seems I am not the only one who likes to burn people who have dissimilar interests.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 24 août 2010 - 09:12 .

[Sarah1281]

Bahlgan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Not only this, but she lectures about duty to either a human noble or dwarf noble who really doesn't need to hear it.

Ah well, this was supposed to be a Wynne love thread but all the psychologizing about Wynne haters despising wisdom and our grandmothers got us riled up.  LOL

It was indeed, I have not forgotten. But there is no avoiding it; there will always be some intolerable person who always finds some way to shoot down a character even during a love/appreciation thread. It truly is too bad. Brings tears to the eyes of even the most strong-willed of citizens.

You say that like you're not the one who provoked everyone by pigeonholing everyone who isn't a fan...

Edit: And you're still being over-dramatic. 'Brings tears to the eyes of even the most strong-willed of citizens'? She's a freaking video game character. Other people not liking her shouldn't be that upsetting.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 24 août 2010 - 08:58 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Sarah1281 wrote...

[quote] What's wrong with Wynn pushing what she sees? If she didn't push her ideals, she would be pushing someone elses and couldn't stand by her own feelings.
[/quote] What bothers me is she tries to come off as an expert who the actual Warden should listen to and should base their actions after when she doesn't actually know any more than any random person on the street who has heard stories about how awesome the Wardens are. She comes on too strongly about things she's not qualified to lecture about. [/quote][/quote]Given that silence is acquiesence, if Wynn says nothing she's supporting whatever your actions are: there is no way to not imply a position when it comes to accepting morality.

Now, if your problem is with people who think they should push their morality at all, I'll leave it there and not continue. There are people who believe they should let others do wrong and not interfere, and there are people who believe that standing by and watching others do wrong (or not warning them if they might be) is in and of itself wrong. Without implying or sighting either towards you, Wynn is of the later. Most of her tales and advice is cautionary, not dictorial: her warning about breaking Leliana's heart if you aren't serious, for example, may come off as pretentious and needless, but an unhardened Leliana's reaction and manner to a failed relationship (or, even worse, death in US) shows it isn't uncalled for.

Given that she apparently does have some sort of past with Duncan, and a history of her own adventuring of sorts, and of course a lifetime of the ever-valuable interpersonal experience, Wynn does have qualifications on which to base advice, as if any were actually needed: neither you or Alistair, after all, have the grounds of experience as Grey Wardens to say that she is mistaken. (Appeal to authority has never been an all-correct appeal in the first place.) She certainly does have more experience with general questing, and the problems and delimmas that come in it, then either of you.

(Just want to make clear I'm not trying to change your mind or call your position inherently wrong: just what I don't agree with in your point. I'll freely give you that she can come on too strong, since that's your personal judgement, but I disagree she's unqualified. Wears thin faster... sure, I'll give that as well, but I view that first time impression of her as the most letimate player impression of her.)
[quote]Addai67 wrote...
Not only this, but she lectures about duty to either a human noble or dwarf noble who really doesn't need to hear it.

Ah well, this was supposed to be a Wynne love thread but all the psychologizing about Wynne haters despising wisdom and our grandmothers got us riled up.  LOL
[/quote]Nobility are the ones who need reminders of duty and morality most, especially going by the game's depiction. It's hardly an inherent understanding: the Dwarven Noble can go to fratricide herself, was raised in a family that excells in the art of polite backstabbing, and is never forced to be a noble spirit. The Human Noble can go from anywhere from a Noblisse Oblige position (which would tend to agree with Wynn) to an absolutely power-hungry bastard who doesn't care for his/her parents.

Leaders, especially young ones, need reminders of duty, public and personal and moral more than just about anyone else. Otherwise what they do know (or think they know) can wind up twisting them into another Lady Drace, who is certainly dutiful to her family's interests, or another Loghain, who let one narrow form of duty overwhelm all else.

[Sarah1281]

I'm not saying that Wynne or anyone else into the party shouldn't step up and say, "You know, I don't think you should be bathing in the blood of orphans" or whatever else she has a moral problem with but practically the first thing she says to you (before you get an opportunity to say anything to her, certainly) is a lecture about what a selfless saint you're supposed to be...regardless of what kind of Warden you're playing. Since she's apparently giving it not because you actually need it but just because she feels that any GW at all should hear her opinion on the matter, it's really annoying.

[Bahlgan]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You say that like you're not the one who provoked everyone by pigeonholing everyone who isn't a fan...

I am not the only one. I know plenty of people on these forums. Many of them on here.

Edit: And you're still being over-dramatic. 'Brings tears to the eyes of even the most strong-willed of citizens'? She's a freaking video game character. Other people not liking her shouldn't be that upsetting.

Heh heh funny, because I remember a certain individual standing up for Loghain despite the acts he's pulled off. Telling me "she's a freaking video game character" doesn't cut it. If you are trying to tell me to stop moaning over video game characters, then perhaps these forums shouldn't exist at all, because guess what honey? THIS IS A VIDEO GAME FORUM! Talking about video game characters, events, quests etc. Is what we do. By the way, the comment which you replied to was designated as sarcasm.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 24 août 2010 - 09:17 .

[Sarah1281]

Heh heh funny, because I remember a certain individual standing up for Loghain despite the acts he's pulled off. Telling me "she's a freaking video game character" doesn't cut it. If you are trying to tell me to stop moaning over video game characters, then perhaps these forums shouldn't exist at all, because guess what honey? THIS IS A VIDEO GAME FORUM! Talking about video game characters, events, quests etc. Is what we do. By the way, the comment which you replied to was designated as sarcasm.

I figured it might be. I like Loghain, yes. I do not feel the need to accuse everyone who doesn't like him of having daddy issues, hating authority, hating freedom, hating self-made men or anything like that. I also don't take it personally when people don't like him. You...you REALLY take Wynne dislike extremely personal and pidgeonhole them based on four really stupid reasons that no one actually hates Wynne because of.



TALKING about video games is fine. It's fun. Getting worked up because someone doesn't like a character you do? You maybe need to take a step back and remember that she's a fictional character.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What's wrong with Wynn pushing what she sees? If she didn't push her ideals, she would be pushing someone elses and couldn't stand by her own feelings.

Not a thing is wrong with it. I just have two points of contension with it.
1) I didn't ask for her view, like Sarah said, you go up to talk to her for waht ever and she starts giving you the lecture.
2) I wouldn't go to a carpender and ask what a cop does. Sure he may have traveled/worked with/known one, but he only knows what he sees, and that does not make him in expert in police.

I'm going to have to ding you for being short sighted. How the Wardens are seen is a concern: it's the very reason something as minor as the Right of Conscription is used so sparingly. You can do just about anything once, but life, history, and politics are repeating games: people remember past actions. The Wardens were kicked out once, and that made a precedent that they can be kicked out from everywhere else if they overstep themselves.

Wynn hardly stops you from doing anything with a legitimate point to beating the Blight. She might not like it, but she doesn't stop you. Wynn's philosophy essentially adds up to a third caveat for the Grey Wardens: Defeat darksapwn by any means necessary, defeat Blights by any means necessary, but when you have a choice of means, do the best means possible.

'At any cost' doesn't mean you should spend any cost, after all: it's a comittment to no maximum, not a limitation of a minimum cost.

Yes, in a realistic and practical maner, how the Wardens are viewed is something they need to be aware of. But as I said, it's more for reasons that it impacts how they do their job. Anything beyond stopping Darkspawn and blights becomes a personal matter to each individual Warden.
 
Amaranthine in Awakening is a perfect example. Burn the city to the ground to kill the darkspawn and contain the taint or charge in and kill every darkspawn you see and beat them back one darkspawn at a time.

Both are totally valid options for the Warden's purpose. Personally, I'll take the second option everytime as playing a character able to make the first choice is distatesful to me, but the first gets the job done just the same as the second. Both have their fallouts in a positive and negative maner, but facing consequences for ones choice will always happen and someone will always complain, but as long as long as the Warden keeps killing darkspawn and stopping their threat, by the standards of the Wardens, it's good enough. The 'how' is up to the individual.

Wynne wants to make sure your Warden isn't the burn the city type and there's nothing wrong with that, but she's not a Warden and will not face making those choices for the Wardens so telling my Warden what I should do then getting mad if I question or disagree is not a good stance for a 'guiding mentor' figure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bahlgan wrote...
So if you were to be horrible at mathematics because you couldn't guess what two plus two meant and I were to say you suck at math and need some serious lessons in tutoring, would I be instantly discredited because I am ignorant? Sure I would be a completely rude guy to bluntly and indiscriminately bellow how you cannot add or subtract, but hey sometimes the truth hurts.

A very false analogy.
A- Math has nothing to do with wisdom and belief. What is true and false is clear and there is no discussing it.
B- Wynne is not trying to learn, but she is trying to teach what she doesn't know about.

If you were to be good at math and then tell me I suck, because clearly I am wrong, then sure thing.
But Wynne is not expert on the Wardens, knows nothing about them and yet claims to tutor us how they should do their work. On what authority? Why should we care what she has to say about the Wardens, when any kid who read books could tel us the same?
It is not a case of "the truth hurts" because Wynne doesn't know the truth. If she did, she wouldn't have been surprised at the prospect of a blood mage Warden (plenty of those around).

Try harder on coming up with pertinent arguments.

Bahlgan wrote...
Well for someone such as yourself to protest against her so as to disgrace every attempt she makes to try and keep the Warden calm under the heaviest of stressful moments, there is obviously something specific in the thread. Me pointing out Leliana was just an example of what she could have done or said to deter you from your mission. As far as you trying to scoot me off the thread, it seems I am not the only one who likes to burn people who have dissimilar interests.

Deter me from my mission? My mission being to care about what Wynne has to say about things she knows nothing about? Who is she to tell me what my mission is anyways.

And don't assume, you're wrong. There is nothing "specific" in the thread that makes me dislike Wynne as a character.

And I am not trying to scoot you off the thread, I am trying to tell you to make your post sound less like rants and less personal and more like actual arguments.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 25 août 2010 - 12:20 .

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nobility are the ones who need reminders of duty and morality most, especially going by the game's depiction. It's hardly an inherent understanding: the Dwarven Noble can go to fratricide herself, was raised in a family that excells in the art of polite backstabbing, and is never forced to be a noble spirit. The Human Noble can go from anywhere from a Noblisse Oblige position (which would tend to agree with Wynn) to an absolutely power-hungry bastard who doesn't care for his/her parents.

Leaders, especially young ones, need reminders of duty, public and personal and moral more than just about anyone else. Otherwise what they do know (or think they know) can wind up twisting them into another Lady Drace, who is certainly dutiful to her family's interests, or another Loghain, who let one narrow form of duty overwhelm all else.

Being told at one turn that you're the protector of mankind and at another turn that you're not mature enough to handle a romantic relationship is not solid mentoring.  It's patronizing nonsense.  Wynne has not gotten any better at mentoring than she was with Aneirin. That was one of my earlier points; she doesn't change, she doesn't grow.

[Addai]

Bahlgan wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Not only this, but she lectures about duty to either a human noble or dwarf noble who really doesn't need to hear it.

Ah well, this was supposed to be a Wynne love thread but all the psychologizing about Wynne haters despising wisdom and our grandmothers got us riled up.  LOL

It was indeed, I have not forgotten. But there is no avoiding it; there will always be some intolerable person, who always has to hate someone because of one little thing, who always finds some way to shoot down a character even during a love/appreciation thread. It truly is too bad. Brings tears to the eyes of even the most strong-willed of citizens.

LOL I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're a non-native English speaker and maybe don't realize how condescending and hyperbolic you come across as.  I think if you're looking for a reason why critics of Wynne have spoken up in this thread, you might look to your post where you characterized such people as hating their grandmothers and whatever else.

[Carmen_Willow]

I just wanted to add one thing about Wynne. 

When I first played Dragon Age, I was not only a brand new Warden, I was also really new to immersive role playing games.  I truly felt as I wandered through the game for the first time that the weight of Thedas rested on my shoulders.  I felt that I had to be strong, had to know what to do.

Alistair was grieving.  Morrigan was a b**ch. Leliana was a little bit touched.  Sten was disapproving and cold. Zeveran was dangerous, and Shale was a rock (but not in a good way). Everywhere I turned people wanted and needed me to solve their problems, to take away their pain.

I knew less than nothing about being a Warden.  My mentor, Duncan, died at the same time Alistair's did, and with even less time to learn.  I had learned duty from my noble parents, but they were murdered and my brother was missing.  I had no one, no one who understood how alone and scared and sad I was...except for Wynne.  

When I was lost in the wilderness and vastness of the task ahead of me, it was Wynne who promised me it would be all right.  It was Wynne who understood how much I had lost and did her best to give me something to hang onto.  It was she who called me back to the rock on which my life had been built; Duty.  Duty to my nation, duty to my king.  Duty to my family, to my families' lands and people. 

Even when she chided me about Alistair, I knew she was right. And, in my first playthrough, she was right.  There was no happy ending to our romance.  Duty separated us as she knew it would.  As the child of a noble I expected nothing less and nothing more. Wynne lectured me, but with good cause.  She saw the future as plainly as any seerer.

In later playthroughs, I saw other sides of her, got to know her faults.  But for my first human noble female, she was the staff on which I leaned when I was sad and weary and she did not break but bore my weight until I could stand once more.

Gosh, I love this game!!!  I can remember even now how it felt to be that character and to live that "life." 

Anyway, that's my Wynne gush.

[Zjarcal]

To add to that happy comment above I will say this. As much as Wynne annoys me, I love having a character that can bring out such strong reactions from me. In other words, I love to hate her.

It's part of what makes the game so great, to have all these realistic characters that can bring out all kinds of emotions from the player.
There's my Wynne gush. 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 25 août 2010 - 03:20 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

@ Carmen.

That is of course not only valid rping, but also quite deep and I can definately understand why you would like Wynne with that premise.

But not all people feel the same way and thus not all people react the same way. And this game captures it brilliantly, hence why I love it.

Sorry we sort of hijacked your thread, but it was sort of provoked (and not by you, op).

[Carmen_Willow]

I didn't mind at all. I love the discussions on these boards even when they wander. A lot of really great things get said in the context of talking about the game. I love it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

jln.francisco wrote...
Me: Don't you have any proper advice?
Wynne: Never! You young ones always seem to know everything.
Me: ...

Makes you wonder why she doesn't remain true to that belief and stop trying to offer advice.

[asaiasai]

Wynne is not the problem it is the inherent problem of youth. Speaking from first hand experience when i was but a pup 25 years ago i was immortal, knew all there was to know, and never needed any sage advice. The point is now that i am older, have wisdom of time provided by more life experience, i can see just how wrong i was. Being able to inderstand quantum mechanics does not mean you know all there is to know, when you stop learning you stagnate and that is death of a sort. When it comes to Wynne or any party member for that matter, you have asked or allowed this character to have your back while on a holiday in hell, allowing them to have or voice an opinion is not only required but necessary. As far as the wardens go Wynne may know little or nothing of how they really are, but she does have an understanding of how they are percieved by the world at large. Sure you might be getting a little of the Wynne flavor when she talks about wardens, but any time anyone opens thier mouths to speak part of who they are will always color what they say. It is from this color/flavor if you will, that one can acertain that Wynne while a bit preachy is essentially a good honest person, in a world of deciet (noble origins) you should sigh in relief that someone will actually tell you an honest opinion regardless of whether you agree with it or not. I know even now i do, people claim to demand honesty but for the most part can not handle it. Wynne says what needs to be said, whether you agree/disagree follow or not any of the advice provided, you have been warned, informed, and will no be held accountable. Unlike Morrigan who is a lying self serving b!tch, Wynne will always give it to you straight whether you like it or not.



Asai

[Sarah1281]

So it's not Wynne's fault for lecturing on basic things we already know or that she doesn't know about but ours for not appreciating the value of old people talking no matter what they're saying? No one's complaining that we can't take Wynne's honesty, you know. Wynne letting us in on the secret that some people idolize GWs? It's hardly a secret. Her age has nothing to do with it. Our ages have nothing to do with it. She just doesn't say anything all that vital. If she weren't in the game, I'd miss a healer and a griffon conversation and otherwise not notice a difference.

[Sarah1281]

jln.francisco wrote...

Unlike Morrigan who is a lying self serving b!tch, Wynne will always give it to you straight whether you like it or not.

I think we got very different impressions of Morrigan and Wynne lol

Unless you happen to think that Morrigan is gold-digging white trash, then yes, yes you do.

[Zjarcal]

jln.francisco wrote...

Unlike Morrigan who is a lying self serving b!tch, Wynne will always give it to you straight whether you like it or not.

I think we got very different impressions of Morrigan and Wynne lol

Couldn't have said it better myself!