330 réponses à ce sujet

[asaiasai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So it's not Wynne's fault for lecturing on basic things we already know or that she doesn't know about but ours for not appreciating the value of old people talking no matter what they're saying? No one's complaining that we can't take Wynne's honesty, you know. Wynne letting us in on the secret that some people idolize GWs? It's hardly a secret. Her age has nothing to do with it. Our ages have nothing to do with it. She just doesn't say anything all that vital. If she weren't in the game, I'd miss a healer and a griffon conversation and otherwise not notice a difference.

Your second third fourth time through the game sure you might know all there is to know, or maybe as some younger folks seem to already know what they had no idea they needed to know before they needed to know it, you picked it up by osmosis, cosmic rays from space or what ever. The first time through the game you as a player know nothing, her character provides advice, and a bit of direction, to fault her character because she has to say the same lines on plays 2 to 20 is silly.

Let us take 2 characters and compare them, the character with alot of fan love Morrigan and compare her to Wynne who has little fan love. Morrigan follows the warden because it is in HER best intrest to do so, the warden has something to offer Morrigan via the dark ritual. That is the ONLY reason Morrigan follows the warden, and all through the game anytime there is a situation where the warden is asked to stand and protect the weak Morrigan disapproves, so much so it is a running joke on the boards. Whether the dark ritual is a contrived scheme of Flemeth's, Morrigan's or both that is the only reason Morrigan is there, for her own personal gain. She is a lying, manipulative, self serving b!tch who is only looking out for her best interest, working an angle to get what she wants and when denied what she wants will leave the warden high and dry when the warden needs her the most.

Wynne on the other hand, it would be safer and easier for her to have remained at the tower. It would have been easier for her to say the tower needs me here. Wynne understands the importance of the wardens mission she understands duty, she understands that to stand by allowing evil to be comminted in her presence is just the same as if she herself was the perpitrator of the evil acts. Wynne asks for nothing from the warden, except that she be allowed to serve even if it is inconvient, dangerous, Wynne will always have your back provided of course you have hers. You do not have to like or follow her advice but she will always answer a question honestly regardless. She will tilt at windmills for no other reason than someone has to take a stand, and if your willing to stand, by the maker she will stand next to you adding her voice to yours. She is a rightious, self sacrificing, honest, valuable member of your team who will follow you into perdition and be thankful to your warden for the opportunity to do her duty.

Given the choice considering what we know about both of these women i for one consider her to be next to my tank the most valued member of my team. My wardens consider themselves lucky that Wynne has chosen to help them on thier mission. Yes the i am old stuff gets old, but when i need her to be there she is ready willing and able to deal with what ever we need to deal with. Sure it is possible to get by most of the game with potions only provided of course you avoid stuns, knockdowns, grabs, overpowers, etc. Wynne's ability to heal/group heal in a sense yelling to our adversaries "start over b!tch" even while a character is stuned , knocked down, grabbed, overpowered, etc makes her a valuable asset to the team more so than any other character except the tank. Rule number one in my game is touching Wynne is unauthorized behavior and will signifigantly reduce your life span. You wanna slap me around go ahead i like it, hell that is what i am here for, touch my Wynnie the pooh, and it is over for you.

All of this is just opinion anyway as such there is no right or wrong only yours and mine, to each his own as i firmly believe. I am sure your feelings about Wynne reflect my feeling about Morrigan and that is ok, i just would like to point out that i have at least provided solid reasons for my feelings concerning both of these characters. Wynne is proof positive that the developers love the players, are concerned for the players ability to be successfull, and are damn fine talented when it comes to character creation where Morrigan is the equal yet darker representation of thier other side, sweet balance.

Asai

[Addai]

Wall of text... but, I will just say that both Morrigan and Flemeth want to stop the Blight, too. Without them, the PC and Alistair would be dead. We also don't know that the Dark Ritual is something "evil." The Revelation comic indicates that Morrigan sees it as helping the PC. I mean, it does save a Warden's life. Wynne gets credit for wanting to contribute as well, but like all the NPCs she has her personal reasons for following the PC as well. Namely to get out of the damn tower.

Modifié par Addai67, 25 août 2010 - 06:36 .

[Sarah1281]

Your second third fourth time through the game sure you might know all there is to know, or maybe as some younger folks seem to already know what they had no idea they needed to know before they needed to know it, you picked it up by osmosis, cosmic rays from space or what ever. The first time through the game you as a player know nothing, her character provides advice, and a bit of direction, to fault her character because she has to say the same lines on plays 2 to 20 is silly.

Wynne is not aware that you, the player, exists. She sees the Warden. The Warden has the benefit of living in the same world Wynne does and having done so for roughly two decades pre-game. Does she REALLY need Wynne to explain something that everyone in Thedas knows, like the fact that people see Wardens as heroes?

Wynne on the other hand, it would be safer and easier for her to have remained at the tower. It would have been easier for her to say the tower needs me here.

No, it really wouldn't be. She died and was brought back to life by a spirit so now she fears she's an abomination. And the Templars watch her every move at the Tower. And they'll be watching even closer now that that thing with Uldred is cleared up.

[asaiasai]

Addai67 wrote...

Wall of text... but, I will just say that both Morrigan and Flemeth want to stop the Blight, too. Without them, the PC and Alistair would be dead. We also don't know that the Dark Ritual is something "evil." The Revelation comic indicates that Morrigan sees it as helping the PC. I mean, it does save a Warden's life. Wynne gets credit for wanting to contribute as well, but like all the NPCs she has her personal reasons for following the PC as well. Namely to get out of the damn tower.

That is not true, Flemeth and Flemeth alone is responsible for the PC and Allistair's lives. Morrigan does not even have the skills to heal your wounds when Flemeth rescues you. She tells you as much when you talk to her in the hut before you go out to see Allistair. morrigan is in now way responsible for your rescue, and considering her personality if it was left up to her to rescue the wardens they would be dead, not because she maybe incapable but because it does not serve her interest.

That is why i refuse the DR because not enough is known about it, but knowing Morrigan as i think i do turning her loose with a god to raise as she see fit is irresponsible. Sure Morrigan will see the DR as helping the warden when in reality the only one she helps is herself by, either having a body to possess just as Flemeth intends for hers, or as a trade to Flemeth to spare her own neck, in either case the only one who will benefit from the DR is Morrigan. Self preservation is NOT an alturistic motive regardless of how it is marketed today.

The last bolded part is just speculation on your part but getting out of the tower where she is in no danger to jump in to a quest that may prove to be her end does qualify as alturistic. Besides regardless of what class or end to the game, the tower free from the chantry or not she is still doing tower bussiness in Awakenings, so there can not be too much danger for her.

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 25 août 2010 - 07:18 .

[Addai]

It's not speculation- Irving says "you never were one to stay in the Tower."



Morrigan also tells you that she is bandaging your wounds when you wake up. So she did her part.

[asaiasai]

Addai67 wrote...

It's not speculation- Irving says "you never were one to stay in the Tower."

Morrigan also tells you that she is bandaging your wounds when you wake up. So she did her part.

True enough but her want to leave the tower was already a pattern of her behavior long before she was possesed by a spirit from the fade.

Underlined is probably because Flemeth told her to. Look the very fact that everytime there is something alturistic to do in the game Morrigan disapproves, you can not deny it, it is a running joke on the boards, that speaks more about the true personality of Morrigan than anything else. Trying to do something heroic in the game results in a lot of lip from Morrigan, she is the succubus nudging you to the darkness the entire game, always against helping others if there is no gain for her.  

Wynne does what is right, regardless of benefit, or inconvience it is who she is, i for one would take honesty with out manipulation over honest manipulation everyday.

Asai

[CalJones]

Wynne may try to do what is "right" but I question her ability to do what is necessary. The wardens are not about doing good, they're about ending the Blight, no matter the cost. Wynne's idea of the wardens is even more idealistic than Alistair's.

[Zjarcal]

asaiasai wrote...

Trying to do something heroic in the game results in a lot of lip from Morrigan, she is the succubus nudging you to the darkness the entire game, always against helping others if there is no gain for her.  

That's how she was raised.

Flemeth taught her that survival comes first while the needs of others are not important. I can't really blame Morrigan for having that attitude when it's the only attitude she has ever known.

I can see that you have a very negative opinion of Morrigan though, so I won't try to argue too much in her defense since it would be rather pointless.

[Sarah1281]

That is not true, Flemeth and Flemeth alone is responsible for the PC and Allistair's lives. Morrigan does not even have the skills to heal your wounds when Flemeth rescues you. She tells you as much when you talk to her in the hut before you go out to see Allistair. morrigan is in now way responsible for your rescue, and considering her personality if it was left up to her to rescue the wardens they would be dead, not because she maybe incapable but because it does not serve her interest.

And you honestly think Flemeth DIDN'T save you because it served her interest? Morrigan couldn't save you; she didn't have the power. Even if she did she couldn't have saved everybody. She was thinking of rescuing the King as that would have been more valuable to her but had she been fully aware of what the Blight was and how everything was going to come down to Alistair and the Warden, she probably would have acted like Flemeth did.



And I love how Wynne leaving the Tower that's in need of extensive cleanup and not really going to have any 'safer' opportunities for her to leave for awhile when she's worried that she's an abomination and thus shouldn't be around suspicious Templars or the Circle's been annulled and she's literally got nothing else to do is altruistic but Morrigan agreeing to stick by you until the end isn't. I mean, really? She's forced to because her mother told her to? It's not like she's unwilling to defy her. Although what Morrigan is like and whether the DR should be done have to do with Wynne is beyond me. She could be a saint or the biggest **** in the world and it wouldn't change Wynne.

[Addai]

asaiasai wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It's not speculation- Irving says "you never were one to stay in the Tower."

Morrigan also tells you that she is bandaging your wounds when you wake up. So she did her part.

True enough but her want to leave the tower was already a pattern of her behavior long before she was possesed by a spirit from the fade.

Underlined is probably because Flemeth told her to. Look the very fact that everytime there is something alturistic to do in the game Morrigan disapproves, you can not deny it, it is a running joke on the boards, that speaks more about the true personality of Morrigan than anything else. Trying to do something heroic in the game results in a lot of lip from Morrigan, she is the succubus nudging you to the darkness the entire game, always against helping others if there is no gain for her.  

Wynne does what is right, regardless of benefit, or inconvience it is who she is, i for one would take honesty with out manipulation over honest manipulation everyday.

Asai

If you want to dismiss others' arguments as speculation, just realize that you're loading a lot of speculation into your interpretations of Morrigan and that that is not necessarily how others perceive her character.  Beyond that I don't think there's much else to say, except to point out that while you perceive Morrigan as a "succubus," Wynne actually is an abomination.  Just compare how the two handle being trapped in the Fade vis a vis the demons.

Stick that in your irony pipe and smoke it awhile. 

Modifié par Addai67, 25 août 2010 - 02:48 .

[Monica21]

asaiasai wrote...
Trying to do something heroic in the game results in a lot of lip from Morrigan, she is the succubus nudging you to the darkness the entire game, always against helping others if there is no gain for her.  

I'm not sure how you're playing the game, but the PC can continue to be a do-gooder and wind up with Morrigan at 100 Friendly. There is a point where she finds it interesting that she can call you a friend, and says that even though she may not deserve the same from you, she will always consider you a friend. She's not a do-gooder on her own and she did join you for selfish reasons, but by the time of the DR, if you and she are friends, she offers the DR as much to save your life as for her original reasons.

But then again, I've always like Morrigan.

[LobselVith8]

asaiasai wrote...

Whether the dark ritual is a contrived scheme of Flemeth's, Morrigan's or both that is the only reason Morrigan is there, for her own personal gain. She is a lying, manipulative, self serving b!tch who is only looking out for her best interest, working an angle to get what she wants and when denied what she wants will leave the warden high and dry when the warden needs her the most.

Morrigan has never lied during DA:O. Ever. She kept things from the Warden, but she never lied. She actually disapproves if the Warden lies. As for manipulative, she always fights alongside the Warden, and never tries to kill the Warden regardless of whether she supports the plan at hand. You could make the argument that Morrigan is an outcast mage despised by the general population of Ferelden and advises the Warden to enpower him or herself to stop the apocalypse while Wynne is a doormat for the Chantry who has no issue killing the last bastion of hope for Ferelden. If you decide that the tower needs to be cleansed or pour blood into the ashes she kills you, although she has no problem if the templars decide to murder every last man, woman and child of the tower and will never bother to dissuade you from actually pouring blood onto the ashes even if you declare your mention to do so beforehand. Wynne also does nothing to stop the Chantry's abuse of the mages, from keeping them under the boot of the templars to turning them into soulless slaves who do the bidding of the Chantry.

[PriscilaSSR]

Morrigan can be as annoying as Wynne. Redcliffe/Lothering with her was a nightmare... "Oh, you are saving the blacksmith daughter? YOU MORON", bla bla di bla! I barely used her after that. So, I can see how people think the same of Wynne, especially if they are playing "evil" or selfish characters. Both of them are preachy. So what? I love them both. Morrigan grows up a little by talking to the Warden, and Wynne learns to not to be so judgmental. They both care a great deal for the PC. Neither change all that much in the end. Still, the interactions with them are awesome.

I guess I can love them all even if I don't agree with their opinions. So what if they think the Warden is doing the wrong thing? I'm not him/her, why would the characters opinion matter to me? What matters to me if they are well written, if they feel real. And besides while they still obey the Warden, if you do something completely against their interests they leave. It's called principles and both of them have it. (Defying the Ashes and turning down the DR). Making them awesome and real, so love all around!

Someone said that Wynne talks about you and your situation more than anyone, which is completely true. And to most of my Wardens that was a relief. A relief that someone was watching over them and cared. To Cousland she was a second mother. To the first Amell (US ending) she was a guide and they agreed about the Circle (a home, but a home you want to be freed of after a while. Things are not perfect for mages, but they may be better, especially if you are friends with the Queen/King of Felderen!). The second Amell, well, I guess it was my 5fh playtrought and I left Wynne in the camp to use different characters and choose to play a more selfish Circle-hating character. Still, 80+ approval with the old lady! Mostly by giving her gifts haha. They didn't agree about things, but didn't bother me at all. My love for characters transcends real personal beliefs I suppose.

Modifié par PriscilaSSR, 25 août 2010 - 10:52 .

[Carmen_Willow]

I would certainly agree that both Morrigan and Wynne are well-written. Love them or hate them, you cannot dismiss either character as either shallow or as a cliche. I have played characters who found Wynne every bit as boring and tiresome as some do. And I certainly was rather put off by her in Awakenings (but by then I think the Wynne hate had grown to the point it was easy to take the character there). And, when I've made her into an Arcane Warrior a time or two, I get a good laugh about watching the old woman wield her magic sword in heavy armor!



And I understand about not being able to "forget" something that a character has done in a prior playthrough. It was two or three playthroughs before I would take Sten anywhere after I took him to Haven once. Now, that felt really like a betrayal to me, and I never liked the character so well after that.

[CalJones]

Heh, it's funny, I actually agree with Sten about the ashes and it annoys me that you are forced to get them when Teagan could have deputised for Eamon instead. I've never had any problems not being able to persuade him, though...probably because I usually go for the ashes late in the game.

[SirOccam]

Aww, poor Wynne. So much hate in this thread for dear, sweet, grandmotherly Wynne.

I really, really liked Wynne, and I think it was for two main reasons. First and foremost, and probably coincidentally, my main/favorite playthrough is a City Elf male. If you recall, his mother died some years ago, and he probably hasn't had a lot of exposure to the "real world" outside of the Alienage, then all of a sudden he is thrown in the middle of a war and now has the whole country to save. Some advice would be welcome, I think, in such a predicament. If you play as someone a little more experienced or sure of themselves, I could see it being annoying. But for my guy, it was a chance to talk to someone about insecurities, doubts, and worries. Not to mention the whole "surrogate mother" aspect.

This ties in somewhat with my second reason...she gives enough of a crap about you to actually ask you how you're doing! I got really annoyed when, in the Alienage, you talk to Shianni and she mentions your wedding, then Alistair's all like "Bwuh? You never told us you were engaged!" I just wanted to say to him "well you know what, ****? Maybe if you'd stop blubbering about Duncan and whining about your own life story for two seconds, I could get a word in edgewise."

I think Alistair, Leliana, Morrigan, and Zevran ask you about yourself maybe once or twice each, and instantly they go right back to talking about themselves. Wynne has whole conversations about how you're adjusting, and about all the expectations people have about you. When she does talk about herself, it actually fits the conversation and illustrates a point she's making about you, and it's not just an offhand comment.

Morrigan: Blah blah blah Flemeth blah blah...oh....*sigh*...I suppose you...had a mother too?
PC: Why yes, actually, she was--
Morrigan: Yeah so anyway, go kill Flemeth plzkthx.

Leliana: Blah blah blah Orlais blah blah Bards blah blah...so...Alienage, huh?
PC: Yep.
Leliana: I love shoes!

...and so on.

[Sarah1281]

You know, Alistair once though of Wynne as a grandmother as well. Then he returned to Ostagar with her.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

You know, Alistair once though of Wynne as a grandmother as well. Then he returned to Ostagar with her.

LOL yeah.  It's rather ironic that Wynne is praised for asking you about yourself, when her questions are always preface to a long, long, long lecture where she attempts to show you that she actually knows more about you than you do.  Again, different strokes for different Wardens, but that's not mentoring in my book.

[Zjarcal]

I rather hear the companions talk about their lives than have Wynne telling my PC how to live hers. But of course everyone can play their wardens how they want and if their wardens enjoy Wynne's rambling...



@CalJones:



It's so much better not to persuade Sten and just go a head an duel him. He is so humiliated when you defeat him, he's almost doing sad puppy eyes! I love Sten's little episode, it honestly never bothers me, partly because like you, I find the sacred ashes quest to be terribly silly and only do it because you're forced to do it.

[SirOccam]

Addai67 wrote...

LOL yeah.  It's rather ironic that Wynne is praised for asking you about yourself, when her questions are always preface to a long, long, long lecture where she attempts to show you that she actually knows more about you than you do.  Again, different strokes for different Wardens, but that's not mentoring in my book.

I didn't get that impression at all. Can you give an example? It seems like most of it is advice based on her years of experience, and...it seems like solid advice. But again, if you play a character who's pretty experienced already, I could see how it might be unwelcome.

I don't recall her ever trying to overrule you, the only exception being expressing her concerns about your romantic relationship. But even then, she will admit that she was mistaken and apologize for it. That alone is pretty cool in my book.

[Zjarcal]

Wynne's apology for giving unwanted romantic "advice" is among the few moments where I can say she comes off looking good.



And if you read through the many posts in this thread you'll find examples of where we feel Wynne is giving not so solid advice. Specifically that of what it means to be a Grey Warden when she doesn't know jack about what it truly means to be one.

[SirOccam]

Zjarcal wrote...

And if you read through the many posts in this thread you'll find examples of where we feel Wynne is giving not so solid advice. Specifically that of what it means to be a Grey Warden when she doesn't know jack about what it truly means to be one.

I guess I just don't think she's wrong. She might not be a Grey Warden, but our GW's have precious little experience with it themselves, and she seems to know what she's talking about. Granted, hers seems to be a somewhat idealized vision, and probably not very pragmatic, but...I guess I'm just okay with that. It seems like a worthy ideal to strive for.

I could definitely see some Wardens being unappreciative of it, especially the more ruthless ones, the ones all about doing whatever is necessary to defeat the Blight. And that's totally fine, don't get me wrong. But I don't see it as some kind of crime on Wynne's part to have those views, nor to offer them. It seems like a Warden like that could brush it off with a "yeah yeah...old ladies and their arbitrary judgements" kind of attitude, and it would just be a case of incompatible personalities, and not a matter of Wynne being some kind of terrible person.

[Zjarcal]

I wouldn't call Wynne a terrible person for giving unrequested advice. Like you said, I just brush it off and ignore her for the most part.



I do consider Wynne a terrible person but for different reasons (read my post in the first page if you're interested in knowing why I think so terribly of Wynne).

[Sarah1281]

Why do so many people accuse those of us who don't like Wynne of thinking she's a terrible person (or being terrible people ourselves as the case may be)? Some do but it's not mandatory to think someone is a horrible person to just not like them.

[SirOccam]

Zjarcal wrote...

I do consider Wynne a terrible person but
for different reasons (read my post in the first page if you're
interested in knowing why I think so terribly of Wynne).

I haven't played a blood mage before, so I haven't seen that conversation. I agree that sounds like it would be annoying. But it makes sense with what I said before, though. The more "ruthless" or pragmatic Wardens are those who are more likely to turn to Blood Magic in the first place. I like to play my characters mostly good-hearted, slightly idealistic...basically wanting to end the Blight but not willing to go to ANY means, necessarily. They steer clear of Blood Magic, and try to help the people they come across, even if those people aren't directly involved in combating the Blight. So this is probably precisely why I haven't had that conversation.

Sarah1281 wrote...

Why do so many people accuse those of us who don't like Wynne of thinking she's a terrible person (or being terrible people ourselves as the case may be)? Some do but it's not mandatory to think someone is a horrible person to just not like them.

Well the solution here is that if you don't think Wynne isn't a terrible person, then I wasn't referring to you. I never said "anyone who doesn't like Wynne thinks she's a terrible person."

In any case, it was slightly hyperbolic anyway. I meant that I don't see these things as a mark on her character. My character wasn't really compatible with Oghren, for example, but I don't think it's Oghren's fault, per se. It doesn't mean I dislike the character. Disliking a character for perceived hypocrisy, as Zjarcal points out, is perfectly reasonable. I'm not saying (and I haven't said) that everyone should like Wynne...I just feel kinda bad for her. All these other characters have these massive appreciation threads, and not only does hers have only a handful of pages, but most of it is negative.

She's one of my favorite companions, but I guess I must be in the minority.