330 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

There is actually an option, that didn't get included in the game due to flag error I believe, where the *Warden* can turn Morrigan in as apostate.  Terra_Ex was working on restoring it, not sure if he ever did.  I just want my option to turn Wynne in as an abomination.    Especially if you kill her and she shows up in Awakening berating you for turning up like a bad penny.

[SirOccam]

Zjarcal wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I do consider Wynne a terrible person but
for different reasons (read my post in the first page if you're
interested in knowing why I think so terribly of Wynne).

I haven't played a blood mage before, so I haven't seen that conversation. I agree that sounds like it would be annoying. But it makes sense with what I said before, though. The more "ruthless" or pragmatic Wardens are those who are more likely to turn to Blood Magic in the first place. I like to play my characters mostly good-hearted, slightly idealistic...basically wanting to end the Blight but not willing to go to ANY means, necessarily. They steer clear of Blood Magic, and try to help the people they come across, even if those people aren't directly involved in combating the Blight. So this is probably precisely why I haven't had that conversation.

Why do you have to assume that because my character was a blood mage I was playing a "ruthless and pragmatic" warden? My blood mage did pretty much every "good" choice in the game, including helping everyone in Redcliffe, saving both Connor and Isolde, lifting the curse with the Dalish, helping almost everyone (except Brother Burkel) in Orzammar without greed in mind, and of course, saving the stupid Circle.

My mage never used blood magic to do any harm, hell, she never even used the "blood sacrifice" spell because it was wrong (she was only going to use her blood and no one else's).

Blood magic by itself is not evil. You can do bad things with it (just as you can do bad things with any sort of power), but simply being a blood mage should not qualify you as a "ruthless warden".

When did I say blood magic was evil? And when did I say anything about your character in particular? I said the more ruthless and pragmatic people are more likely to use blood magic. That's not logically equivalent to saying "everyone who uses blood magic is ruthless and pragmatic." It doesn't mean you were necessarily ruthless, pragmatic, or both.

Besides, "pragmatic" is a relative term. If you used blood magic, considering the current attitudes about it in Ferelden society, then yes, you are more "pragmatic" than, say, I was. We all know that using Blood Magic is commonly looked down upon. If that didn't stop you, then, well...that's the very definition of pragmatic. The practicality of using such a power appears to have been more important than the principle that such a thing should not be used. I never said this was a bad thing.

EDIT: Also, however questionable a character's moral background might be, if that person saves your life (as is the case with Wynne here, because if you didn't save the Circle the Templars would've killed her once the Right of Annulment had been called) the least you can do is keep your mouth shut about their "questionable ethics", especially when surrounded by a group of people who would kill such person.

Okay.

I didn't realize that was restored dialogue. I have to agree with the others who say that it's probably not fair to hold that dialogue against her. Without the ability to read minds, we can't exactly say why it was cut; we can only speculate. But the fact is, she doesn't do that unless you mod the game specifically to add it in.

[Hayllee]

I liked Wynne, and in my mind my warden appreciates the way she is, reminding her of her mother/Nan. I actually listened to her tell a story about the grey wardens last night, and instead of choosing the continue option, I interrupted with "Griffons?" Wynne replied, as if to a child, "Yes, griffons. Now listen to the rest of the story." That made me want a hug Wynne mod. There's so many of those hugging mods, can we get one for Wynne?

[Zjarcal]

Addai67 wrote...

There is actually an option, that didn't get included in the game due to flag error I believe, where the *Warden* can turn Morrigan in as apostate.  Terra_Ex was working on restoring it, not sure if he ever did.  I just want my option to turn Wynne in as an abomination.    Especially if you kill her and she shows up in Awakening berating you for turning up like a bad penny.

He did. At the end of the Circle quest when you side with the Templars, when Gregoir tells you that Morrigan shows a lot of wisdom you can tell him that she's an apostate. She is furious....

Oh, and I would love to have an option to turn Wynne for being an abomination. Would love it!

Though to be fair I'd only use it when she tries to turn me in for being a blood mage. I wouldn't use it otherwise (tempting as it may be).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 26 août 2010 - 07:43 .

[SirOccam]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Does sacrificing your own life force via blood magic to heal an injured child, still make blood magic necessarily "evil"? I agree with Zjarcal. Wynne's hatred towards blood magic has nothing to do with morality. And everything to do with her dogmatic blind belief in what the Chantry teaches her.

I never said Blood Magic was evil. And you're playing with semantics here: "dogmatic blind belief." Would not "belief" suffice? You're making it out like she was brainwashed, but the vast majority of NPCs who have an opinion on the topic find Blood Magic wrong. I'm not saying that means it IS wrong, but I'm just saying Wynne believing the same isn't so horrible.

About Wynne even *daring* to suggest that Anerin (? forgot his name) goes back to the Circle. I find it very appalling. Not only did he become more accomplished and free than any circle magi, but he is trying to revive his people's culture (and probably believes in their gods, making him a non-Andrastrian). And all that Wynne can come up with is tell him to go back to the people who tried to kill him because of her? I am surprised Anerin didn't slap her right there. It was extremily inconsiderate and disrespectful of her to say that. And that's not mentioning how the Chantry does not trust Dalish magic and is trying to learn ways to fight it (Awakening chantry board). So how is it a good idea for a Dalish keeper to go to the Circle?

Well he certainly didn't seem to mind the suggestion! He even said he would consider it.

I mean, if anyone had the right to be upset by her suggestion, it would be him. If he's not, why should we be?

In short, Wynne believes the Circle is a good place for mages to be. She thinks the system works. Is having that opinion such a crime? Morrigan espouses some viewpoints I find infinitely worse than anything Wynne says, like when she's in favor of my city elf taking the Tevinter slaver up on his offer, which would mean the death of my PC's father. I lost 5 approval from her for not doing that. But even then, I don't hate Morrigan for it. She's had a...peculiar childhood which has given her a...peculiar outlook on some things. I understand. Maybe we could all give our companions the same understanding.

[KnightofPhoenix]

SirOccam wrote...

I never said Blood Magic was evil. And you're playing with semantics here: "dogmatic blind belief." Would not "belief" suffice? You're making it out like she was brainwashed, but the vast majority of NPCs who have an opinion on the topic find Blood Magic wrong. I'm not saying that means it IS wrong, but I'm just saying Wynne believing the same isn't so horrible.

I never said you did. I am talking about Wynne, who can turn a blood mage Warden despite everything he / she has done.
It becomes blind belief when you want to condemn the one who saved you, because you think he is doing soemthign evil with no evidence to support it.

SirOccam wrote...
Well he certainly didn't seem to mind the suggestion! He even said he would consider it.

I mean, if anyone had the right to be upset by her suggestion, it would be him. If he's not, why should we be?

I understood his reply as trying to be polite and patient, rather than agreeing (I see no reason at all for him to agree or consider it).
I never said her beliefs are a crime. In fact, as I said before, the reason I dislike her as a *character* (not person) is because I am indifferent to her. And my reaction to her talking is always sumarised by this 

But that advice in particular, I thought reeked of stupid and makes me question whether she is in a position to give solid advice to mages. 

[Zjarcal]

SirOccam wrote...

When did I say blood magic was evil? And when did I say anything about your character in particular? I said the more ruthless and pragmatic people are more likely to use blood magic. That's not logically equivalent to saying "everyone who uses blood magic is ruthless and pragmatic." It doesn't mean you were necessarily ruthless, pragmatic, or both.

Besides, "pragmatic" is a relative term. If you used blood magic, considering the current attitudes about it in Ferelden society, then yes, you are more "pragmatic" than, say, I was. We all know that using Blood Magic is commonly looked down upon. If that didn't stop you, then, well...that's the very definition of pragmatic. The practicality of using such a power appears to have been more important than the principle that such a thing should not be used. I never said this was a bad thing.

You said that "ruthless and pragmatic" wardens would be more inclined to use blood magic and then went on to say why your "good natured and idealistic" wardens steered clear of it. Sorry, but that did make it sound like you were implying that my blood mage was "ruthless and pragmatic".

About pragmatism, you do have a point. I guess my blood mage was a little bit pragmatic in the sense that she didn't care what others thought of her being a blood mage. Still, I associate pragmatism more with an attitude of "the end justify the means" or "doing whatever's necessary", an attitude that would make it okay to do something you would consider bad for the sake of a greater good. My mage does not consider blood magic to be a bad thing in the first place so it wasn't really a case of using "any means necessary".

Then again you did say pragmatism is a bit subjective so let's leave it at that. At any rate, she may a be a bit pragmatic, but ruthless? Certainly not.

Finally about people saying that Wynne's restored dialogue shouldn't be used against her, there are many things that got cut out of the game for budget reasons, others for technical reasons, and some for reasons that I honestly can't fathom. The "Morrigan restoration patch" restores a lot of dialogue that isn't OOC at all, yet for some reason was cut. There's also the Aimo comic "The Revelation" that shows a scene that was supposed to be in the game but got left out for budget reasons. Should we not take that comic into consideration when judging Morrigan's character?

Wynne's confrontation with a blood mage isn't OOC at all. She tries to kill you for having an "apostate advisor", she tries to kill you if you side with Cullen (even if Cullen's plan doesn't involve killing her), and she tries to kill you for defiling the ashes. Her trying to get you killed for being a blood mage doesn't seem OOC to me at all.

[Zjarcal]

SirOccam wrote...

In short, Wynne believes the Circle is a good place for mages to be. She thinks the system works. Is having that opinion such a crime? Morrigan espouses some viewpoints I find infinitely worse than anything Wynne says, like when she's in favor of my city elf taking the Tevinter slaver up on his offer, which would mean the death of my PC's father. I lost 5 approval from her for not doing that. But even then, I don't hate Morrigan for it. She's had a...peculiar childhood which has given her a...peculiar outlook on some things. I understand. Maybe we could all give our companions the same understanding.

That particular moment is indeed one that doesn't make Morrigan look good at all. I have always wished for an option (if playing a city elf of course) to yell at her saying something along the lines of "That's my father in one of those cages!".

There is a difference however between losing five approval points and having someone try to get you killed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Peace, Sarah. You seem to be getting invested in this argument.

Sarah1281 wrote...Have you actually seen that confrontation? It's on Youtube. Wynne doesn't refuse to go with you after that point because either Irving and Greagoir covers for you so she thinks you used 'Grey Warden non-blood magic' or she attacks you along with everyone else and dies. And if you don't restore that content and use blood magic later she simply never notices just like she doesn't notice when she becomes a blood mage.


Wounded player pride has nothing to do with it. I'm not the one who decided that, as a GW during the Blight, I should get a free pass for being a blood mage. You said Wynne was acting like everyone else in the Tower and Templars would act but she didn't. Irving and Greagoir, the people in charge, decide that Wynne needs to STFU because while they may not be happy with your 'GW magic' (which Greagoir even says), they're gointg to trust your judgement. They're not going to say 'thanks for saving everything I know and love, now what were those strange spells you were using?' Wynne is the ONLY one who has a problem with it if it's just hinted at. You have to literally confess to being a blood mage (or fail at persuade) in order to get Irving or Greagoir to come after you because they, the characters in the game, realize that what you have to do is more important than making sure only Chantry-sanctioned spells are used.

Having just seen a playthrough in which the Warden kills both mages and Templars and one , I disagree with a key part of your argument. Without the powers of persuasion, Wynne's concerns are the same of Gregoir and Irving: until you convince them otherwise, the extent of their understanding to the fact that you are a blood mage is that they'll accept your immediate surrender. They weren't there to see your blood magics, but Gregoir is firm that her concern is worth hearing if you pick the wrong objection. They didn't get to see your magics throughout the tower.

You can persuade them otherwise, or just let them rationalize it away, but then doing so also persuades Wynn that she was mistaken, to which she apologizes. She's just as exhausted as the rest of them, and exhausted people aren't the clearest thinkers or long-sighted people.

While I see a viewpoint you're coming from, that Gregoir and Irving prefer to pretend not to know, the scene seemed to me different, that they didn't truly know. How much they liked not knowing can be argued till dusk, but I got the vibe of 'the Wardens record their own spells, but none are truly evil,' while they view blood magic as true evil they wouldn't accept. Not simply because it's out in the open now and they can't ignore it, but that's how they see it.

It's not outsiders that are criticizing; it's Wynne trying to get you killed. What does she honestly think will happen by bringing this up? At best, she gets peace of mind that you aren't really a nasty blood mage who had the audacity to use your illicit spells to save the Circle and at worst? She just doomed Ferelden.

Edit: And the whole 'no one knows why the Wardens are important' argument doesn't apply as Wynne believes that only GW can save Ferelden so even if they weren't actually necessary, she'd still be destroying what she thought Ferelden's only hope was.

Given that Wynn talks about the Wardens in legends and metaphors she admits aren't literal, I've never taken her to literally believe that every Grey Wardens, specifically the mage one in this case, are a requirement to saving Ferelden. She has a respect for the Order, she believes they are important, but it's a great deal further to assume that means she must tolerate and acquiese to the worst of them (who, as a blood mage, has the proven potential to be a great threat to Ferelden as well).

And, of course, there is the fact that there is another Grey Warden besides The Warden. Your own indespensibility to completing the Blight, and Alistair's unsuitedness to it (if unhardened at that time), is something that can not simply be divined by a woman who's spent at least days isolated in the tower fighting to protect others. So, 'at worst', she can be attempting to remove someone she worries could well be a massive threat, but isn't outright dooming Ferelden. Because, how could she know?

And, at best, she's doing far more than simply getting ease of mind, as if that was all she was doing. She's confirming whether the Warden is or is not a significant threat... which, whatever you personally think of blood magic, is something that blood mages are seen as by both Circle and Templars, Grey Warden or no. Her asking you is quite relevant at the time and context, since there is the possibility that you learned your blood magic (if that is what it was) from within the Circle, an issue which has just led to a massive crisis.

Blood magic isn't just some social taboo, like sodomy or pissing in public. Ferelden as a whole is convinced that blood magic is unredeemable both morally (pure evil) and practically (too dangerous), and the Tower has just been in hell for weeks because of a practical demonstration of why they believe it. I'd call Wynn's concern far from reasonable, given what she and other mages have just endured.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zjarcal wrote...

That particular moment is indeed one that doesn't make Morrigan look good at all. I have always wished for an option (if playing a city elf of course) to yell at her saying something along the lines of "That's my father in one of those cages!".

To which she would probably shrug and lose ten approval points, but I do like the idea. Sentimental family attachments have never been Morriagan's cup of tea.

There is a difference however between losing five approval points and having someone try to get you killed.

There's also a difference between selling you being (or not being) the sort to sell your father into slavery and you potentially being a prior member of a maleficar cabal that just turned into abominations that sacked the tower.

Just saying.

[Giggles_Manically]

Can someone put the confrontation up here please, about the PC being a blood mage that is.

I cant decide until I see it firsthand really.

[Zjarcal]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

That particular moment is indeed one that doesn't make Morrigan look good at all. I have always wished for an option (if playing a city elf of course) to yell at her saying something along the lines of "That's my father in one of those cages!".

To which she would probably shrug and lose ten approval points, but I do like the idea. Sentimental family attachments have never been Morriagan's cup of tea.

There is a difference however between losing five approval points and having someone try to get you killed.

There's also a difference between selling you being (or not being) the sort to sell your father into slavery and you potentially being a prior member of a maleficar cabal that just turned into abominations that sacked the tower.

Just saying.

Considering that you just helped save the tower, killing all the abominations as well as their leader in the process (and that you have been gone from the tower for quite a while, before that mess began), I'm inclined to believe you're not part of that "maleficar cabal".

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Can someone put the confrontation up here please, about the PC being a blood mage that is.
I cant decide until I see it firsthand really.

It's on youtube. For the record, watching it there doesn't feel quite as powerful as actually being in the moment.



EDIT: Aghh, it seems that video doesn't include the part where you actually get exposed as a blood mage, only when you persuade Irving and Gregoir.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 26 août 2010 - 11:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Zjarcal wrote...

Considering that you just helped save the tower, killing all the abominations as well as their leader in the process (and that you have been gone from the tower for quite a while, before that mess began), I'm inclined to believe you're not part of that "maleficar cabal".

Really? If I had been part of a maleficar cabal and then came back and saw that the whole thing had not only failed, but imploded beyond everyone's worst nightmare, killing them and closing all the loose ends linking me to them would be one of the first things I could do if it were in my power. All my other evil, ill-gotten powers could from then on be hand-waved away to those who wouldn't know any better, and all/most the evidence and testimony linking me to them would be lost forever.

Mind you, that would assume I was part of a maleficar cabal. (Which, in the interest of honesty, is something I have already roleplayed once. I killed all the mages to cover my tracks, and to remove Wynn who would have been the only one to guess what I was really doing when I looked for more incriminating evidence.)


Of course, I've been told more than once that I am secretly a paranoid bastard. But just because they aren't out to get you doesn't mean they couldn't be!

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 26 août 2010 - 11:49 .

[mousestalker]

Here ya go

[Dean_the_Young]

mousestalker wrote...

Here ya go

Aye, saw that one.

I wonder: doesn't the Warden's actions actually prove Wynn's concerns of her as a blood mage as valid, and justify her voicing them?

[Giggles_Manically]

Its strange the Warden card, is like a get out of jail card.

Also Irving to the rescue.



I dont let the mages die simply for how cool that old dude is.

[mousestalker]

It's funny but I really liked Wynne my first play through right up until we ran into Caladrius. The "eek blood magic" comment really rubbed my city elf raw when she was staring at her father in a cage. My human nobles got along with her quite well. She is very polite to nobility. My dwarves really had no opinion about her other than her utility, or lack thereof. My mages always dislike her and pity her. My last Dalish was "Right, you're a shem, I will give your advice the full weight I give any human." Of course she had the same opinion of Morrigan.



Looking at her in terms of usefulness, my mages leave her at camp (with Morrigan), my rogues have no need of her and my warriors generally have her with them at all times. It all boils down to one spell: Haste. My rogues can't use it (Haste and Momentum cancel each other out. Haste and Swift Salve stack.) My warriors can (Haste + Precise Striking + Momentum stack). My mages have no need of another mage, unless I'm running an 'all mage' party.

[Zjarcal]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, I've been told more than once that I am secretly a paranoid bastard. But just because they aren't out to get you doesn't mean they couldn't be!

If you say it yourself...

[Zjarcal]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Its strange the Warden card, is like a get out of jail card.
Also Irving to the rescue.

I dont let the mages die simply for how cool that old dude is.

On my current game I sided with the Templars for the first time (it was fitting for my Dalish who didn't want to find out who was or who wasn't an abomination, "let's just kill them all") and I felt terrible watching Irving die. I know I could've kept him alive by using the Litany and still side with the Templars, but my Dalish was sort of sharing Cullen's mentality.

Poor Irving. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Zjarcal wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Its strange the Warden card, is like a get out of jail card.
Also Irving to the rescue.

I dont let the mages die simply for how cool that old dude is.

On my current game I sided with the Templars for the first time (it was fitting for my Dalish who didn't want to find out who was or who wasn't an abomination, "let's just kill them all") and I felt terrible watching Irving die. I know I could've kept him alive by using the Litany and still side with the Templars, but my Dalish was sort of sharing Cullen's mentality.

Poor Irving. 

I would play through the fade again just to hear:
Curse whoever thought to house the circle in a tower"

[Dean_the_Young]

Zjarcal wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Of course, I've been told more than once that I am secretly a paranoid bastard. But just because they aren't out to get you doesn't mean they couldn't be!

If you say it yourself...

Then it isn't a secret, and thus the statement is invalid.

It also was a comment made prior to the 2008 election, during which I made a number of predictions that were later revealed as true.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 août 2010 - 01:29 .

[ejoslin]

Hmmm, with Wynne, there is one confrontation I find shows an interesting insight into her moral code. If you have her with you at the slavers, at that very tense moment with Caldrius, when he's kneeling and about to die and offers his deal, Wynne says something like, "I hope you're not considering this. It's blood magic." You can tell her to shut up at that point -- heh, her concern is not the people you'd be killing, but the fact that it's blood magic. ANYWAY, if you tell her to shut up, then do NOT take the deal and instead kill Caladrius, she still gives you an extreme disapproval (-18 approval IIRC).

So the two things I see here are -- she's not concerned about elves and slaves and such as she is about blood magic.

And -- she's more concerned with your character attitude towards her than she is with your character's actions.

Very human, yes.

Plus, what she says about the relationship with Zevran when he hits "adore" is pretty nasty. The relationship hits adore, he trusts and turns to the warden at that point, and Wynne smears both him and the relationship in a nastier way than she does in the other romance talks.

Hmmmm, do I need to come up with some Wynne now?  If you make her into a blood mage, she is an incredible damage dealer!

Edit: Added linky!

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 août 2010 - 02:50 .

[Zjarcal]

Ahhh, the Caladrius situation! How could I've forgotten about that one! I really should dig up the old Wynne hate thread ("Winnie the Poo") to get all the examples of nasty Wynne.



And yes, the Zevran "love advice" is the worst of all. It's almost like she's repulsed of the warden "rolling around" with Zev and boy does it show. The VO notes in the toolset confirm just how repulsed she is.

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...

Hmmm, with Wynne, there is one confrontation I find shows an interesting insight into her moral code. If you have her with you at the slavers, at that very tense moment with Caldrius, when he's kneeling and about to die and offers his deal, Wynne says something like, "I hope you're not considering this. It's blood magic." You can tell her to shut up at that point -- heh, her concern is not the people you'd be killing, but the fact that it's blood magic. ANYWAY, if you tell her to shut up, then do NOT take the deal and instead kill Caladrius, she still gives you an extreme disapproval (-18 approval IIRC).

So the two things I see here are -- she's not concerned about elves and slaves and such as she is about blood magic.

And -- she's more concerned with your character attitude towards her than she is with your character's actions.

Very human, yes.

...

Every companion gets upset if you tell them to stuff it. Infact, most people in general don't like you if you call them an idiot or are rude to them. It's hardly a defining character trait, as if she's dependent.

And given that that Wynn generally is a 'let's help the people without question' person, you should recognize that she disapproves that you were considering it, not that she doesn't care about people.

Plus, what she says about the relationship with Zevran when he hits "adore" is pretty nasty. The relationship hits adore, he trusts and turns to the warden at that point, and Wynne smears both him and the relationship in a nastier way than she does in the other romance talks.

If that's your idea of a nasty smear, you live a very, very pleasant life.  She basically said 'he's a sex-fixated guy,' which he undisputably is, 'and you're carrying on your relationship in an manner undignified for a Grey Warden.' Which, depending on how you think Grey Wardens, heroes, or soldiers in general should compose themselves, is debatable.