330 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Yes, I carried out a relationship with Zevran, with a fem city elf. For completions sake more than anything else: while he's sweet and all once you get to know him, he's pretty much a sleaze ball at first, and none of my roleplays would tolerate it.

Either the first time or near the first time that he flirts with you you can call him on it and he asks if it bothers you. Tell him yes it does and he'll stop. That doesn't sound very sleaze-ball-y to me.

Young adults, like the Warden, need reminding all the more because they think they don't. No one cares if kids screw around: they aren't in a position to do serious harm or ruin the world because of a bad breakup and the fallout.

Wynne doesn't seem very concerned about the fact he was an assassin out to kill you although that's probably the best reason I can think of for her to caution you about him so that can't be the cause of her concern. What does she honestly think is going to happen? Zevran breaks up with you or vice versa (maybe you even catch him cheating on you as I'm sure Wynne would believe that of him) and so you get suicidal? You decide being in Ferelden is oh-so-very painful and so you leave the entire country to fall and go mope about in Orlais? If she really thinks you can't handle a relationship ending then how does she think you can handle a Blight? Why does she think you're such a drama queen high school student anyway?



And when she apologizes? She doesn't say anything about how she was wrong about you and she sees now that you are mature enough to handle it. She starts blathering on about twu wuv.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zjarcal wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've seen young people in love. It can be a very beautiful thing. It can also be accompanied by failing to continue to show up to work and being fired, not being able to focus on problems and issues, and AWOL charges.

And that's when the relationship is going well.

Ah yes, every relationship is going to go like that.

And of course, you clearly know it all.

Strawman, as no once claims either.

The fact that people do have relationships that do that, however, is grounds for other people to be watchful and remind the loverbirds that, however much they love eachother, they should keep their heads about them.

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

'Get' is shorthand for 'not agree with you,' I take it?

Yes, I carried out a relationship with Zevran, with a fem city elf. For completions sake more than anything else: while he's sweet and all once you get to know him, he's pretty much a sleaze ball at first, and none of my roleplays would tolerate it.
[...]
Wynn does understand what is going on. You do not understand Wynn. Wynn is not your mother saying you picked up a bad boy why is abusing you. Wynn is not your grandmother telling you to save yourself for marriage. Wynn isn't the spinstress telling you that, no, you aren't really in love with him regardless of what your hormones tell you.

Wynn is treating you like a professional comrade, and warning you against harming yourself and your position as a Warden.

[...]

Young adults, like the Warden, need reminding all the more because they think they don't. No one cares if kids screw around: they aren't in a position to do serious harm or ruin the world because of a bad breakup and the fallout.

You have to be at adore for him to proposition you.  If you flirt, his approval goes up quickly.  But that's the threshhold.  Adore.  71+.  And you can turn him down with no approval loss and not ending the relationship if you choose.

"Get" is not shorthand for not agreeing with me.  Zevran's romance is much deeper than you're giving it credit for. Many people miss it -- there is at least one romance stopping bug at the end which prevents him from falling in love.  There are quite a few dialogs that are messed up as well (VERY messed up).  To get his confession, you have to invite him to the tent or else you'll miss that (and his possible proposal).  It's not an insult.  Many people miss the deepest parts of the romance, because dialog that is not obvious, and because of some very horrendous bugs. 

And to this I can say, gah, we fall in love and no lecturing is going to change that.  I was fairly young when I got married, but no one would have talked me out of it.  See, what you're not getting is, well, someone who understands love and romance would know that how Wynne approached it is NOT going to have the desired result.  All it will do is anger someone.

It does take wisdom knowing when not to speak.  If Wynne was trying to get someone to think about their actions, that is NOT the way to do it.  All it will do is tick the person off and make them defensive.

I don't know, I'm glad my kids talk to me about their relationships.  It's sometimes hard to just ask questions and not point things out, but you know, it seems to work better that way.  

Edit: And yes, Sarah is right.  At the beginning you can easily get him to stop.

Also, he asks about the future you two will have at 26+.  Whether you're friends, friends with benefits, or possibly going to have a long term relationship.

At 26+.  None of the other LI's ask about the future nearly so early.  That's not so sleazy either.  He is fine with FWB (at that point at least), but he also is thinking about more.  You can have it be fairly committed from the start, IOW.  It's up to the warden.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 août 2010 - 04:07 .

[Zjarcal]

I'm walking out of this conversation. It has given me an incredible headache.



It feels like I'm talking to Wynne herself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Yes, I carried out a relationship with Zevran, with a fem city elf. For completions sake more than anything else: while he's sweet and all once you get to know him, he's pretty much a sleaze ball at first, and none of my roleplays would tolerate it.

Either the first time or near the first time that he flirts with you you can call him on it and he asks if it bothers you. Tell him yes it does and he'll stop. That doesn't sound very sleaze-ball-y to me.

Stopping flirting when asked, but having flirting as a natural state, makes you a considerate sleaze-ball.

Wynne doesn't seem very concerned about the fact he was an assassin out to kill you although that's probably the best reason I can think of for her to caution you about him so that can't be the cause of her concern. What does she honestly think is going to happen? Zevran breaks up with you or vice versa (maybe you even catch him cheating on you as I'm sure Wynne would believe that of him) and so you get suicidal? You decide being in Ferelden is oh-so-very painful and so you leave the entire country to fall and go mope about in Orlais? If she really thinks you can't handle a relationship ending then how does she think you can handle a Blight? Why does she think you're such a drama queen high school student anyway?

No one has problems with Zevran being in a relationship with you, more or less.

Why does Wynne have to subscribe to a specific scenario to be just as justified? There are more than enough possibilities and ways for a relationship to go bad, and you hardly need to be suicidal to be a worse Warden for it. Say Zevran dies in battle and you find the killers: can you maintain the manner and mindset worthy of a Grey Warden? Will you?

No one really has a choice about if you can handle the Blight or not. You and Alistair are the only Grey Wardens left. But relationships can be high-stress events, and being able to handle either of them alone doesn't mean you can handle both if something goes bad. No one needs unncessary risks.

For your last: because, according to the dialogue indications, off-scree you and Zevran have been pretty wild, sexual or no. You've already shown to have a wild thing going.

And when she apologizes? She doesn't say anything about how she was wrong about you and she sees now that you are mature enough to handle it. She starts blathering on about twu wuv.

Two wuv, and the fact she believes he's serious about it as well. Since that was a good part of her concern now removed, why shouldn't that change her thoughts on whether you were getting yourself into something you weren't ready for?

[Dean_the_Young]

Zjarcal wrote...

I'm walking out of this conversation. It has given me an incredible headache.

It feels like I'm talking to Wynne herself.

I'm like the Stone, full of stubborn wisdom that doesn't see the sky.

[Zjarcal]

I wouldn't call anything you have said wisdom. The fact that you claim to be full of wisdom is very arrogant.



Gah, I said I was walking out!

[Dean_the_Young]

ejoslin wrote...
You have to be at adore for him to proposition you.  If you flirt, his approval goes up quickly.  But that's the threshhold.  Adore.  71+.  And you can turn him down with no approval loss and not ending the relationship if you choose.

It's been awhile since I played that human noble, but giving him gifts probably had some part in it.

"Get" is not shorthand for not agreeing with me.  Zevran's romance is much deeper than you're giving it credit for. Many people miss it -- there is at least one romance stopping bug at the end which prevents him from falling in love.  There are quite a few dialogs that are messed up as well (VERY messed up).  To get his confession, you have to invite him to the tent or else you'll miss that (and his possible proposal).  It's not an insult.  Many people miss the deepest parts of the romance, because dialog that is not obvious, and because of some very horrendous bugs.

You'll have to mention what you think this deep part is, because I may have seen it and not much been awed. I did have him fall in love, and did invite him to the tent, and he did give me the ring and wouldn't sleep with the elf again. He did tell me of a lost love he murdered.

I missing much so far?

And to this I can say, gah, we fall in love and no lecturing is going to change that.  I was fairly young when I got married, but no one would have talked me out of it.  See, what you're not getting is, well, someone who understands love and romance would know that how Wynne approached it is NOT going to have the desired result.  All it will do is anger someone.

Wynn isn't saying not fall in love at all. She was saying have more self-control about it.

It does take wisdom knowing when not to speak.  If Wynne was trying to get someone to think about their actions, that is NOT the way to do it.  All it will do is tick the person off and make them defensive.

That, I admit, is a matter of handling. But without bringing it to attention, no attention will be paid to it at all.

[Sarah1281]

Why does Wynne have to subscribe to a specific scenario to be just as justified? There are more than enough possibilities and ways for a relationship to go bad, and you hardly need to be suicidal to be a worse Warden for it. Say Zevran dies in battle and you find the killers: can you maintain the manner and mindset worthy of a Grey Warden? Will you?

I didn't say that she did. I was listing possible scenarios because I couldn't think of one that seemed valid. And neither does this one, really. If Zevran is staying by your side and falls in battle then you'll be there. You won't just let the person who did it (if it's even a person) get away, you'll kill them there. Who CARES if you're not properly calm and saintly like she thinks a Grey Warden should be? They just killed your LI and it's not like they'll live to tell the tale of how very non-mild-mannered you are. If you're fighting them in the first place and they're trying to kill you there is absolutely nothing wrong with killing them in return and they'll probably have started it.



Even if it's just the Crows going after Zevran, there's still the contract on you to contend with.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zjarcal wrote...

I wouldn't call anything you have said wisdom. The fact that you claim to be full of wisdom is very arrogant.

When have I ever claimed wisdom?

I claim experience.

Gah, I said I was walking out!

Yes, you did. Why don't you leave now?

[Sarah1281]

Wynn isn't saying not fall in love at all. She was saying have more self-control about it.

'Have more self-control about it'? Have more self-control than what? Than falling in love during a Blight?

[ejoslin]

See, the thing is, you're NOT using the arguments she puts forth. IF she were to say things like that, maybe it would be better. But she basically says, he's a sleaze, it's not fitting to be involved with him. She says far different things, closer to what your'e saying here, about the other love interests. But not about Zevran.



See, that's a problem I'm having with this debate is you're going beyond the dialog and into Wynne's motivations, but they're motivations that are stated no where. They're not in the dialog, and they're not in the VO notes, so they're your interpretation of the character and not something to base an argument about the character on.



While interpreting a character and adding your own spin is fine, other people WILL see and interpret things differently. IOW, your Wynne is very different than my Wynne. But you're taking a lot of liberties to defend her.



She's written to be imperfect. That's the wonderful thing about her character. She's very human. And quite annoying to many She has her rude moments. She's quite prideful. She acts out of anger on more than one occasion (perhaps). She doesn't understand the implications of her advice quite a few times (Aneiran is a good example here).

[Zjarcal]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

When have I ever claimed wisdom?

Sorry to annoy you by coming back, but here's where you claimed to be full of wisdom.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'm like the Stone, full of stubborn wisdom that doesn't see the sky.

[ejoslin]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

[...]
It's been awhile since I played that human noble, but giving him gifts probably had some part in it.

[...]
You'll have to mention what you think this deep part is, because I may have seen it and not much been awed. I did have him fall in love, and did invite him to the tent, and he did give me the ring and wouldn't sleep with the elf again. He did tell me of a lost love he murdered.

I missing much so far?
[...]
Wynn isn't saying not fall in love at all. She was saying have more self-control about it.
hat, I admit, is a matter of handling. But without bringing it to attention, no attention will be paid to it at all.

The earring, hmmm, as a proposal or as a thank you?  Not sleeping with the elf again?  You missed the confession of his feelings and if you turned down the earring the first time, the (possible) proposal.  After he confesses his feelings, sexytime is back.

Wrong dialog is given at the denerim gates if you take him with you unless your game is modded.  The confession about his last mission comes either at 71+ Adore or 76+ Friendly (NOT warm, friendly -- personal quest is done) so not really romance related though it's kind of telling that he tells a warden he's in a relationship that much sooner than he does a warden he's just friends with.  

And no, Wynne is saying to everyone, don't fall in love, it's selfish.

Again, Wynne doesn't know the warden that well.  She's not the Warden's mother, and is giving advice not understanding the full relationship and putting down the lover AND the warden.  It's inappropriate.

I would think part of giving wise advice is being able to present it in a way that it will be heard.

Modifié par ejoslin, 27 août 2010 - 04:38 .

[EccentricSage]

How is flirting, in and of it's self, sleezy?

[Addai]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

I'm walking out of this conversation. It has given me an incredible headache.

It feels like I'm talking to Wynne herself.

I'm like the Stone, full of stubborn wisdom that doesn't see the sky.

I think Wynne is channeling through her Fade fairy.

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Well, to be fair, Morrigan also wants sex with the male warden. Wynne's conversation isn't as nasty sounding.

It's pretty obnoxious, but you get better responses.  Very lulzy ones, in fact.  So it didn't have the same hurtful tone as her Zevran diatribe, to my mind.

When you take Wynne and Zevran out together, he teases her instead of taking her advice and treating her as his mentor. It's very funny, and quite interesting actually. Seeing how she reacts when the warden doesn't want her as a mentor, it's not surprising she disapproves of him ;D

Both Zevran and Morrigan put Wynne in her place very deftly.  It's beautiful to hear, not to mention hilarious.

[CalJones]

Plus you a Warden romancing Morrigan can reply with "but there's a lot more of me below the waist" for extra lulz.

[mousestalker]

 Wow, we're back to the 'Winnie the Poo' thread. 

For the record, ejoslin knows her Zevran. She has done sterling work in modding the game to fix the Zevran dialogs (The Qwyn fixpack relies on her earlier work). 

[CalJones]

I haven't had much luck finding that thread...if anyone has a link I'd love to read it.

[Avilia]

Here ya go

http://social.biowar...47/index/792952

Modifié par Avilia, 27 août 2010 - 10:09 .

[mousestalker]

CalJones wrote...

I haven't had much luck finding that thread...if anyone has a link I'd love to read it.

Here you go. 

Ninja'ed! 

Modifié par mousestalker, 27 août 2010 - 10:18 .

[CalJones]

Thankyou kindly.

[Sarah1281]

If you ever lose the link, just search for 'Abominable.' That's what I always do and it's the only result.

[maxernst]

The PC I'm writing about generally found Wynne's pretensions of wisdom irritating. In fact in the first chapter he says he'd like to tell her that age doesn't bring any particular wisdom when you spend your whole life locked in a tower. He tended to take the sycophantic responses, though, because he preferred to avoid confrontation. However, in the specific case of the "love is selfish" speech, he concedes in retrospect to Alistair that she was right, although he was annoyed with her at the time (and said so). If you're romancing Alistair, maybe your character really can separate his personal feelings and not allow them to influence the decisions at the Landsmeet or the Dark Ritual. But even if you do what you think of as your duty, the PC may suffer emotional pain and regret. So objectively speaking, it probably isn't a good idea for a Warden to enter a romance in the middle of a blight, especially with another Warden. So I guess the only time my PC openly voiced his disagreement with her was the one time she was offering good advice!