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[I_Raps]

"... the fact that Obsidian gave LoH stuff that's outside the rules should be noted."
 
Except that that's NOT a fact.  Nothing about her is outside the rules.  She was never designed as a PC.  She was built as a MONSTER in the toolset and there are NO forbidden abilities to monsters.  Period.  Also, every ability she has was SELECTED by the designer - no bug.  And there was never any reason to believe she was just a common adventurer of any level.
 
The LoH encounter is also perfectly fair.  The only nods to fairness required of an encounter are (1) appropriate challenge to the players, and (2) appropriate reward.  For the second, the souped-up adjutant you get for defeating her is more than fair.  And as for the first, it's an optional encounter in the first place and in the second place, (having already been oked by the playtesters) as hard as she was I've seen only one player who's ever posted that he couldn't (eventually) take her down the way she's built (and even WRFan could have beat her if he tried, I'm sure, but he was having his fun with the toolset, not the game proper).  I believe the WIKI should point out the rule, not the exception.

 

cheat

CHēt/

verb

 

1. 1.

   act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination.

   "she always cheats at cards" -   GOOGLE

[Thorsson64]

I-Raps old chap. You're hung up on semantics. It's not cheating because the game designers cannot possibly be acting to gain an advantage. There's nothing in it for them. I hope that English is your second language, because otherwise I don't understand how you can miss the nuances.

 

You are also confusing me with WRFan. I never said the encounter was unfair; I just pointed out that unfair isn't the same as cheating.

 

Now as to the fact that developers can do what they like, here you are being disingenuous. Of course they can do what they like, but players tend to get upset when DMs create super-monsters that have unexpected abilities not encountered in the monster manuals. LoH is outside the rules of D&D, and that's what WRFan is talking about and so am I. And that should appear in the wiki.

[I_Raps]

LoH is outside the rules of D&D, and that's what WRFan is talking about and so am I.

 
 
No, you're both wrong, she's not.

The only thing outside the rules is the player/wikiest sneaking a peak at the DMs character sheet.
 
As for monsters with abilities not encountered in the monster manuals - I present:
 
 
 

CHAPTER 4:  IMPROVING MONSTERS

Each of the monster entries in Chapters 1 through 3 describes a typical

creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by

which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical

creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing

a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These

methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with

a template (a half-dragon lammasu, for example) to be improved by

both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.....

CHAPTER 5:  MAKING MONSTERS

All the really great monsters, in the D&D game and in literature,

have one thing in common—you can sum up what they’re all

about in just a few words. That’s the first and most essential item in

any monster recipe—a solid and fairly simple statement of what

the monster is all about.

THE MONSTER’S CONCEPT

Before you begin assigning statistics and other particulars, take some

time to think about the basic nature, or concept, of your monster.

Think about the following when working on your concept:

—What do you expect the creature to do in the game? (Is it a

friend or a foe of the PCs? Does it depend primarily on physical

abilities or mental abilities? Is it meant to be encountered once, or

on a recurring basis?)

—Where does it live? (A monster that lives underground may

have characteristics not shared by monsters that inhabit the

wilderness, and vice versa.)

—How does it live? (Is it a predator that relies on its own

strength and speed, or is it intelligent enough to get other creatures

to do its bidding?)

—Does it have any particular enemies or favorite prey?

After you have an idea of what your monster is about, you’ll

have a much easier time making your creature’s type, ability

scores, feats, skills, and special powers fit your concept. It’s okay to

model your new monster on a creature that’s already in the

game—you’ll have less work to do, and your monster will be easier

to use. You’ll find that a short menu of special abilities tightly

wedded to your concept makes the best monster, and it makes the

monster much easier to use....

much, much more -  Dungeons & Dragons Monster Manual (Core Rulebook III v.3.5) 

 
... and I have DMed this game since just about its beginning in 1974, including almost a decade professionally at a game store, with literally dozens (possibly over a hundred) of players.  I know an unfair encounter when I see one, and this isn't one.  I also know how far any player will get with any DM throwing up the Monster Manual (I think asking them if they want to sacrifice a level to Commune with the gods is the niftyest approach).
 

By the way ...
 
 

I recall the fights as hard, but not that difficult.

 
You might want to talk to this Thorsson64 guy for some pointers if you think it's extremely unfair.

[Tchos]

Each of the monster entries in Chapters 1 through 3 describes a typical creature of its kind. However, there are several methods by which extraordinary or unique monsters can be created using a typical creature as the foundation: by adding character classes, increasing a monster’s Hit Dice, or by adding a template to a monster. These methods are not mutually exclusive—it’s possible for a monster with a template (a half-dragon lammasu, for example) to be improved by both increasing its Hit Dice and adding character class levels.....

 
I have to say, I've made use of those options myself, and I agree with the general principle stated.

[Thorsson64]

 
 You might want to talk to this Thorsson64 guy for some pointers if you think it's extremely unfair.

 

 

I already pointed out that I never said that. I see that you have stopped trying to equate unfair and cheating though, which is something.

 

I concede that DMs can create super monsters and therefore she's not outside the rules; if they just throw them out of the blue though, they won't be popular with players. Given her level, LoH is given too many special powers in my opinion. Also in my opinion, if you DM'd like that you were a lousy DM, no matter how many years you did it. In fact your didactic approach in this thread already points to that likelihood.

[unclejoe1917]

[like with the drinking dude from Cormyr loitering] 

Can anyone tell me who this guy is?  I didn't even catch his name and this is the first time I've played and met him.  He was in the Docks while I was making my rounds checking on the four city watchposts after joining the guard. 

I politely asked him to take his drinking indoors, but sort of wanted to see what would happen if I had drank with him.  

[Axe_Edge]

Trent Vendall?

If you run into him again, tell him he still owes me $15
When ever he comes over, we make sure the liquor cabinet is locked.

 

 

Edit: 

 

While sippin' a cup of coffee, I I did a quick search to see if he was anybody of note.

 

The Forgotten Realms Wikia simply states:

"Trent Vendall was a visitor of Neverwinter in the 1370s DR."

"Trent came from Cormyr and went to Neverwinter, despite bandits attacking the caravans.  He managed to arrive to (in) Neverwinter.  He offered Kalach-Cha some alcohol, if (Kalach-Cha) worked with the Watchman.

 

 

 

[unclejoe1917]

Okay, his name sort of mentally blurred with Vengaul from NWN1 and whoever that fellow is who is writing the book in SoZ. It looks like him and his offer are of nearly zero significance then? 

[Tchos]

whoever that fellow is who is writing the book in SoZ

 

Volo?  He's a character known for "writing" many "travel guides" (in other words RPG sourcebooks) for different regions of the Forgotten Realms, with editing and commentary by the wizard Elminster (also known from numerous Forgotten Realms novels).  See "Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast", "Volo's Guide to the North", etc.

[unclejoe1917]

Volo?  He's a character known for "writing" many "travel guides" (in other words RPG sourcebooks) for different regions of the Forgotten Realms, with editing and commentary by the wizard Elminster (also known from numerous Forgotten Realms novels).  See "Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast", "Volo's Guide to the North", etc.

Volo was one of the high points of SoZ.  I really liked his character. 

[4760]

The first time I heard about Volo was in the Ultima series (by Origin). So he's some character who gives the history settings to RPG's some consistency (like 007 for spy movies)?

[Tchos]

4760: I believe the Ultima character you're thinking of is Iolo.

 

Volo was one of Ed Greenwood's recurring characters.  Ed Greenwood created the Forgotten Realms setting, and wrote most of the campaign setting supplemental material (defining regions, people, cultures, history, etc.).  He often wrote this supplemental material in the voice of a widely-travelled character who had been to the places in question, akin to Marco Polo's travelogues.  Elminster, another of Greenwood's characters, added notes and "corrections" to the guides, to introduce a little "unreliable narrator" quality to the information, which gave DMs some freedom in contradicting what was written in the books.

 

An example of one of the books.

[4760]

Ah, yes, you're right Tchos, it was Iolo, not Volo.

Thanks for the information about Volo and Elminster