267 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

I know, Heatsinks were a retcon for gameplay's sake and that a lor of people seem to think it was a good idea both within the fiction and in the gameplay .........but a few things have started to bug me to no end lately.

ok....let's read the codex entry

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

Note that the entry itself  definitely does not specify  that heatsinks improve the "damage" dealt by a weapon or its energy output (which is limited solely by the recoil inflicted on the soildier wielding it as specified by yet another entry)

ok let's start with the most obvious  

well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. : Uhm...there is NO weapon in ME2 that reloads in under a second. Most weapons' "heatsink swap time" is 1.5 seconds. So Either A: Shepard SUCKS as a soldier and is not as well trained as the average alliance Marine OR Bioware is full of ****. Top of the line weapons in ME 1 took just about that much time go from near overload (I'm not considering the whole overload time...you really have to be an idiot to let your weapon overload OR use high explosive rounds) to  "cool" with the right upgrades (The geth, according to the codex, have some of the best weapons in the galaxy)...
so exactly what was the point of heatsinks? if I have to spend the SAME time waiting for the weapon to cool off a weapon OR swap a heatsink why am I choosing a cooling method that will eventually leave me  completely unable to fire in the long run?

which leads to


most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. How exactly does this work??? For starters Heatsinks will not allow you to output rounds faster as said above.
Second, unless ALL firefights begin and end before one party's heatsinks run out then the party that uses non-heatsinks operated weapons will eventually come out on top because the former party will eventually completely run out of heatsinks and thus be unable to fire altogether.


which also leads to the question "why would anyone pick a weapon that eventually will stop firing COMPLETELY over a weapon with the same damage output that will virtually fire forever and requires just a small cooldown time?"

and

why would a race like the Geth whose soldiers do not panic, and  most certainly do not spray-and-pray on the battlefield, even be concerned with overheating a weapon when they are likely MUCH more efficient than humans in managing their waste heat?

and more impoertantly.....why not keep weapons which do not rely on heatsinks to help during long firefights of attrition in which one just cannot run back to basecamp and grab more heatsinks?

and since when does heat not dissipate? what, ME2 guns have defeated the laws of thermodynamics and they can store heat forever? WTH?


I just don't get it, it feels like Bioware just wanted to make ME2 more and more of a shooter  and just "had" to add a reload mechanism simply because you know..."GoW has one so if we want to attract that kind of crowd we have to have one too". It saddens me really because unless one is playing on insanity  this "ammo system" really does not have any effect on the gameplay  since there is always plenty of ammo (ooops sorry.... heatsinks) unless one just keeps wasting them...it adds really no "tension" to the game itself. So.....what was the point of breaking/retconning the canon in such a senseless manner?

Bah, I just hope Bioware is listening to the fans on this one and just removes the heatsinks altogether in ME3

or if they REALLY want to keep the reload action they could just add an "active cooldown" mechanism similar to the way one vents Troikas on GoW...at least that would make sense canon-wise

[smudboy]

*smashes keyboard*

[MobiusTyr]

This is the one thing I agree with (complaint wise). +1 for you.

[Zack56]

MobiusTyr wrote...

This is the one thing I agree with (complaint wise). +1 for you.

Second.

[PsyrenY]

Well, I for one am glad they added heat sinks. They could have implemented them better (I think a hybrid of the two systems would be the best route - when you run out of heat sinks your guns have to cool down ME1-style) but the time it takes to reload my Widow/Mantis in ME2 is nowhere NEAR the time it takes to cool down my Specter Rifle in ME1 after a shot. Change was needed.



What irks me is the preponderance of heat sinks in places that don't make sense to have them. You can get them from pyros, or Collectors using the ray gun, and there are piles on the derelict reaper which is literally nothing but husks, etc. If guns didn't absolutely rely on them, BW could cut down on heat sinks in those areas and maintain verisimilitude without kicking the combat classes in the junk balance-wise.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ME2 is not about explaining things properly.

Heat sinks, the Lazarus Project, why Shepard can't talk to Kaidan and Ashley, why Kaidan/Ashley didn't get frozen and snatched, Liara's pyscho-obsession and refusal to acknowledge her romance, why Miranda says she will leave without Shepard on the Lazarus Station immediately after saying nothing and nobody in the station is more important than Shepard...

DON'T QUESTION ME2!!! IT IS TEH PERFIKT SEQUILL!

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 23 août 2010 - 04:55 .

[Jigero]

crimzontearz wrote...

ok let's start with the most obvious  

well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. : Uhm...there is NO weapon in ME2 that reloads in under a second. Most weapons' "heatsink swap time" is 1.5 seconds. So Either A: Shepard SUCKS as a soldier and is not as well trained as the average alliance Marine OR Bioware is full of ****. Top of the line weapons in ME 1 took just about that much time go from near overload (I'm not considering the whole overload time...you really have to be an idiot to let your weapon overload OR use high explosive rounds) to  "cool" with the right upgrades (The geth, according to the codex, have some of the best weapons in the galaxy)...
so exactly what was the point of heatsinks? if I have to spend the SAME time waiting for the weapon to cool off a weapon OR swap a heatsink why am I choosing a cooling method that will eventually leave me  completely unable to fire in the long run?

which leads to

Your confusing game play balance and lore, the codex and it's voice overs where probably done long before game play mechanics where polished. It happens all the time get over it.

most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. How exactly does this work??? For starters Heatsinks will not allow you to output rounds faster as said above.
Second, unless ALL firefights begin and end before one party's heatsinks run out then the party that uses non-heatsinks operated weapons will eventually come out on top because the former party will eventually completely run out of heatsinks and thus be unable to fire altogether.

Heat sink weapons can drain a mass effect feild faster then a weapon which has to stop to cool down, the weapon that has to stop and cool down gives the mass effect feild a small time to partially recover cuase the fight to be prolonged. it's the diffence between firing 50 rounds instead of 75 rounds.

which also leads to the question "why would anyone pick a weapon that eventually will stop firing COMPLETELY over a weapon with the same damage output that will virtually fire forever and requires just a small cooldown time?"

Same reason why people pick a rifle over a machine gun, some people rather have 1 bullet that kills you instead of 50 that might kill you.

and

why would a race like the Geth whose soldiers do not panic, and  most certainly do not spray-and-pray on the battlefield, even be concerned with overheating a weapon when they are likely MUCH more efficient than humans in managing their waste heat?

thats exactly why they need heat sinks, Geth like to blitz and rush their openent since they have no fear of death, more bullets they can shoot while blitzing the better.

and more impoertantly.....why not keep weapons which do not rely on heatsinks to help during long firefights of attrition in which one just cannot run back to basecamp and grab more heatsinks?

if the Geth where gonna fight a war of attrition they wouldn't even need to pull a trigger, they could just cut off suppy and stave you or wait till you leave.

and since when does heat not dissipate? what, ME2 guns have defeated the laws of thermodynamics and they can store heat forever? WTH?

Ignoring the fact that the Guns in mass effect break the laws of you know PHYSICIS by using mass effect feilds, yea sure why not break the laws of thermodynamics. "LAWL since when gun can use anti gravity! WTH fiction is so unrealistic!"

I just don't get it, it feels like Bioware just wanted to make ME2 more and more of a shooter  and just "had" to add a reload mechanism simply because you know..."GoW has one so if we want to attract that kind of crowd we have to have one too". It saddens me really because unless one is playing on insanity  this "ammo system" really does not have any effect on the gameplay  since there is always plenty of ammo (ooops sorry.... heatsinks) unless one just keeps wasting them...it adds really no "tension" to the game itself. So.....what was the point of breaking/retconning the canon in such a senseless manner?

Bah, I just hope Bioware is listening to the fans on this one and just removes the heatsinks altogether in ME3

or if they REALLY want to keep the reload action they could just add an "active cooldown" mechanism similar to the way one vents Troikas on GoW...at least that would make sense canon-wise

QQ less

[asaiasai]

This issue is the one issue that was my largest complaint about ME2. As some have suggested on these forums that having heat sinks creates realism in combat. What a laugh. When one spends 3 minutes in a fire fight then spends twice as much time hunting up clips before moving to the next area only to start the entire process all over again, how is this more realistic combat.

How does this make a more realistic game play when even the game itself ignores one simple fact. During Jacob's loyalty mission the weapons on the planet used by the survivors are of new design in that they all use heat sinks, and there are heat sinks laying on the ground for the player to use. Major plot hole here in that the weapons on the planet should be of ME design as the timeline for the mission is 10 years, but we see clips on the ground literally everywhere. I know a wizard did it because he knew you were comming by looking in his crystal ball.

On several of your points OP you raise valid points that have not been addressed by Bioware or the community. I would have no problem with an ammo system if there was some sort of skill balance where you force me use my ammo sparingly but accurate shooting would be a pay off as a head shot would be enough to drop all but the hardest of targets. Instead what we have is a limiting of ammo, and a limiting of the effectivness of my ammo all in an attempt to keep combat a challange.

What i use now which has made ME2 a playable game again in my estimation is a hacked coalesced ini which gives me the best of both systems. I can fire as many rounds in a fight as i need to, eject a clip and continue fighting or i can fire all but the last round, allow the clip to recharge while taking cover, managing ammo, heat or both.

I think for ME3 there should be some sort of compromise where the player can choose thier type of ammo system from the options menu. Those of you that want to spend you game play time hunting up spare clips for hours on end can, and those who do not cna just get to the action the game SHOULD be about. The issue is not the ammo system but the poor combat mechanics requiring the developer to use just such tricks to try to provide some combat difficulty instead of redesigning the encounters to be more of a challange. So the formula to add difficulty poorly designed combat encounters is to gimp the weapons, force the player scrounge assinine clips, and force the player to use weapons and tactics that are the developer's choice as opposd to the player.

Here is a link for the files i use which as i have stated has made the game an enjoyable experience again http://www.masseffec...es.com/mods.php

Asai

Modifié par asaiasai, 23 août 2010 - 05:35 .

[ExtremeOne]

They did the right thing in ME 2. by ditching a stupid idea of guns cooling down before you can use them. thats a bunch of bull sh*t. no one gives a crap about fiction when the stupid fiction makes the game play play like dog crap

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ExtremeOne wrote...

They did the right thing in ME 2. by ditching a stupid idea of guns cooling down before you can use them. thats a bunch of bull sh*t. no one gives a crap about fiction when the stupid fiction makes the game play play like dog crap

Your simile makes no sense.

And the idea that heat sinks can't cool down on their own and/or be reused is also kind of stupid.

But, of course, I imagine your reply will be "Nobody cares about a story justification for a 'good' gameplay mechanic."

[didymos1120]

Jigero wrote...

Your confusing game play balance and lore, the codex and it's voice overs where probably done long before game play mechanics where polished. It happens all the time get over it.

Exactly.  The best example being biotics.  Read the Codex:  you shouldn't be able to endlessly spam even the weakest abilities after a only few seconds rest.  You should instead collapse from total exhaustion after using them three, maybe four, times and it should also take a rather long time in deep concentration to build up the necessary energy for each use. 

[Mystranna Kelteel]

didymos1120 wrote...
Exactly.  The best example being biotics.  Read the Codex:  you shouldn't be able to endlessly spam even the weakest abilities after a only few seconds rest.  You should instead collapse from total exhaustion after using them three, maybe four, times and it should also take a rather long time in deep concentration to build up the necessary energy for each use. 

It also makes no sense that a person is immune to a gravitational change in their environment simply because they have their shields up or a piece of armor on their person.

The codex got ripped to shreds for the purpose of this combat change.

[didymos1120]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

And the idea that heat sinks can't cool down on their own and/or be reused is also kind of stupid.

Depends on how they work, really.  If what's actually happening is some sort of physical/chemical change in the clip materials that isn't spontaneously reversible, then their not being re-usable (or not immediately and conveniently re-usable) makes sense.  If they're just easily-swappable chunks of matter that have great thermal properties, then it doesn't make sense.  My impression was that the former was actually the case, and that they've got more in common with instant cold packs than they do with radiators.

Modifié par didymos1120, 23 août 2010 - 06:30 .

[KainrycKarr]

ExtremeOne wrote...

They did the right thing in ME 2. by ditching a stupid idea of guns cooling down before you can use them. thats a bunch of bull sh*t. no one gives a crap about fiction when the stupid fiction makes the game play play like dog crap

You're an idiot. Most of the forum cares more about the story. Go play Halo.

[MadCat221]

Guns should obey thermodynamics again and cool off on their own.



Biotics should have more running stamina, but have biotics also drain that stamina.



Techies should use OmniGel as "mana" for their tech powers.

[Zulu_DFA]

crimzontearz wrote...
...wall of text...

Yes, you're absolutely right. BioWare made a major retcon for no reason and to no gain.

ME1 > ME2 in absolutely every way, save for graphics.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 août 2010 - 06:33 .

[AresXX7]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Exactly.  The best example being biotics.  Read the Codex:  you shouldn't be able to endlessly spam even the weakest abilities after a only few seconds rest.  You should instead collapse from total exhaustion after using them three, maybe four, times and it should also take a rather long time in deep concentration to build up the necessary energy for each use. 

It also makes no sense that a person is immune to a gravitational change in their environment simply because they have their shields up or a piece of armor on their person.

The codex got ripped to shreds for the purpose of this combat change.

good points

that is the biggest problem I have with the gameplay change
if they wanted to try something different, so be it
win or lose, you don't know for sure till after it's all said & done
but, to make it a part of the story, that's what causes more debates/complaints about it, than the actual change itself IMO

edit: lost part of the qoute(s)

Modifié par AriesXX7, 23 août 2010 - 06:34 .

[Spartas Husky]

Like mentioend in other threads. Mix both.



have certain amount of sinks, each providing a finite numbrer of rounds.

example:

1. If you PUll the trigger none stop you have 20 slugs for the M8.

2. If you shoot in controlled pairs, you get infinite number of slugs, out.

3. If you fire in bursts of three you get around 80 rounds per heat sink.



As you pull the trigger, that little red bar should increase instead of decrease showing the amount of heat.



If you fire in bursts or single, the bar fills maybe 1/5 of the way, and quickly cools down, but only cools down once you stopped firing for maybe a second?... second seems fair.



If you pull the trigger down and dont let go, the bar keeps filling up, giving you around 20 slugs maybe 30-40 depending on the size of the weapon and its dmg. Once the bar fills, you have 2 choices.



Either wait 4-5 secs real time, for the weapon itself to cool off on its own.. like ME1, which is annoying, and given the new nature of ME2 deadly.



Or you can eject heat sink, and keep firing at those baddies.



it gives you the best of both worlds, same system as ME2, and the annoying cooldown of ME1.



heat sinks, are what the name implies, sinks, not power sources, if you fire in burts, or slow enough, the sinks wont have any heat to trap, thus no need to eject sinks.



But as the "geth" discovered, the most successful team, is the one that can put more lead down range, in a continous stream, so maybe for the beginning of the mission you can go all out firing non stop.



But by the end of the mission your out of sinks, and will have to revert back to a more ME1 style of shooting, where you have to manage your heat so you dont over do it in the middle of a fight.



Or a smart person would manage their heat across the mission, and using them sparingly.

[didymos1120]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
It also makes no sense that a person is immune to a gravitational change in their environment simply because they have their shields up or a piece of armor on their person.

What I thought was really strange is that that toxic drug on Samara's recruitment mission drains shields.  You could kinda, sorta quasi-jusitfy it for biotic characters (but not really), but shields? Of course, that's just the devs being nice and not having it instantly drain health the way some toxic powder you're inhaling should.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
It also makes no sense that a person is immune to a gravitational change in their environment simply because they have their shields up or a piece of armor on their person.

What I thought was really strange is that that toxic drug on Samara's recruitment mission drains shields.  You could kinda, sorta quasi-jusitfy it for biotic characters (but not really), but shields? Of course, that's just the devs being nice and not having it instantly drain health the way some toxic powder you're inhaling should.

Or should it? I thought, Shepard's fancy power armor can be fully ABC-proof, just put your helmet on. On the other hand, some of your squaddies go half-naked and don't mind standing in that toxic stuff for however long they want.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 août 2010 - 06:41 .

[ExtremeOne]

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

They did the right thing in ME 2. by ditching a stupid idea of guns cooling down before you can use them. thats a bunch of bull sh*t. no one gives a crap about fiction when the stupid fiction makes the game play play like dog crap

Your simile makes no sense.

And the idea that heat sinks can't cool down on their own and/or be reused is also kind of stupid.

But, of course, I imagine your reply will be "Nobody cares about a story justification for a 'good' gameplay mechanic."

   


This is a freaking video game we are talking about but oh i forgot there are some that will still keep this stupid myth that Mass Effect 1 was the greatest game ever with no problems. a gun having to cool down just so you can use it makes no sense and its not logical at all. The game play is most important in a game. Guns rely on bullets to work not some stupid story fiction where guns have to cool down before working. Oh and the biotics in the game do not need no stupid cool down function neither when the stupid story fiction says that biotics have bio amps implanted with in them. If a game has a great story but the game play sucks like garbage then the game is a piece of crap. Mass Effect 1 got a freaking pass on that which is a load of sh*t 

[AresXX7]

didymos1120 wrote...

Mystranna Kelteel wrote...
It also makes no sense that a person is immune to a gravitational change in their environment simply because they have their shields up or a piece of armor on their person.

What I thought was really strange is that that toxic drug on Samara's recruitment mission drains shields.  You could kinda, sorta quasi-jusitfy it for biotic characters (but not really), but shields? Of course, that's just the devs being nice and not having it instantly drain health the way some toxic powder you're inhaling should.

as for the shields, I just disregarded that as a gameplay mechanic
except for when I play with a nonbiotic character, who you wouldn't think could be affected by it

[Spartas Husky]

For Biotic powers, I gave an idea long time ago.



Your able to use your biotic abilities non stop like in ME1, but you need to give em 2-4 sec in between em to catch your breath, if you cast em before the resting period is over, each successive biotic power has a overall stat penalty.



EXP:



Pull, Warp..... Throw.



You use Warp, 100% power, 3 sec bar appears or w/e



After 3 secs, PUll, can be used to 100 %



if used before, it has a 25% stat penalty, meaning everything is reduced by 25%, range, floating time etc.



New 3 sec bar appears, you use throw, to 100%.



If you use throw, before letting resting go by,



Throw now has 50% stat penalty,



so in essence, you can cast 3 powers in succession, and if 3 are launched in succession, you need to wait 6-8 secs for things to go back to normal.



Same deal, for Omni tools.



PS: Omni tool powers have nothing to do with BIotic, if biotics suffer penalties, tech powers dont.



SO int he end, there would be a system of ME1 regarding powers, every single one has individual cooldown after used, but if you use 3 powers of one kind too fast, all biotic powers go into a cooldown, so if your warp was just about to reset, you gota wait a new 6-8 secs for all of em.



SO you get the individual cooldowns of ME1, and the overall cooldowns of ME2 if you over do it.



Same deal for Omnitool. Individual cool down if you manage your powers, over all cooldown if you "burn out"

[Mystranna Kelteel]

ExtremeOne wrote...
This is a freaking video game we are talking about but oh i forgot there are some that will still keep this stupid myth that Mass Effect 1 was the greatest game ever with no problems. a gun having to cool down just so you can use it makes no sense and its not logical at all. The game play is most important in a game. Guns rely on bullets to work not some stupid story fiction where guns have to cool down before working. Oh and the biotics in the game do not need no stupid cool down function neither when the stupid story fiction says that biotics have bio amps implanted with in them. If a game has a great story but the game play sucks like garbage then the game is a piece of crap. Mass Effect 1 got a freaking pass on that which is a load of sh*t 

You do realize that ME2 guns still don't use "bullets", right?

And nobody ever said ME1 was perfect or without flaws, but it certainly was executed a lot better than ME2, especially in terms of story and lore.

If you want to shut out your brain and focus on the game's combat, go for it. Enjoy it. Some of us rather liked ME for being a consistent, well thought out world, which it really no longer is.

Modifié par Mystranna Kelteel, 23 août 2010 - 06:46 .

[ExtremeOne]

KainrycKarr wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

They did the right thing in ME 2. by ditching a stupid idea of guns cooling down before you can use them. thats a bunch of bull sh*t. no one gives a crap about fiction when the stupid fiction makes the game play play like dog crap

You're an idiot. Most of the forum cares more about the story. Go play Halo.

  


Like i said if a game has a good story and game play is crap does the story really mean anything no because games are centered around game play. you are the idiot because at least i know when a game has bad game play that means it sucks