267 réponses à ce sujet

[That Guy Raffy]

I find it funny how people have to hunt for clips. They're so easy to find and you shouldn't run out of ammo if you know how to aim. lol.

[crimzontearz]

WTF are YOU on about? How do you know the suit VI has anything to do with the comm system, or has any wireless vulnerability at all?

It has ONE function that we know about - managing the shields. This has been extended in Mass Effect 2 to managing the barrier amps/mass field generators used by the other two defenses. Everything else you ascribe to it is an ass-pull.

ok.......let's see if I give you an in-game example we can move forward

Geth Hunters and Primes have layers of armor and shield (and on insanity ALL geth have shields). They communicate with all the other geths AND they network with each other all while the defenses are up so Either

A: Defenses do NOT prevent data sharing and comm, at which point any synthetic should be Hackable at any given point just like they were in ME1 regardless of the barriers

or

B: there is a VI that is in charge of letting comm and Data Sharing go through the defenses as needed (by either lowering defenses during data sharing and comm or whatnot) since defenses are indeed blocking the comm/data sharing stream (may not be the same VI that regulates the armor and shields hence why added "or another VI is" in my post).

if not then Geth are not networking while defenses are on and as such they have to act as singular platforms...which would be total BS

Either way since it is obvious people/synthetics are communicating with the defenses still on then defenses should NOT provide any protection to hacking skills

Modifié par crimzontearz, 27 août 2010 - 05:20 .

[PsyrenY]

crimzontearz wrote...

WTF are YOU on about? How do you know the suit VI has anything to do with the comm system, or has any wireless vulnerability at all?

It has ONE function that we know about - managing the shields. This has been extended in Mass Effect 2 to managing the barrier amps/mass field generators used by the other two defenses. Everything else you ascribe to it is an ass-pull.

ok.......let's see if I give you an in-game example we can move forward

Geth Hunters and Primes have layers of armor and shield (and on insanity ALL geth have shields). They communicate with all the other geths AND they network with each other all while the defenses are up so Either

A: Defenses do NOT prevent data sharing and comm, at which point any synthetic should be Hackable at any given point just like they were in ME1 regardless of the barriers

or

B: there is a VI that is in charge of letting comm and Data Sharing go through the defenses as needed (by either lowering defenses during data sharing and comm or whatnot) since defenses are indeed blocking the comm/data sharing stream (may not be the same VI that regulates the armor and shields hence why added "or another VI is" in my post).

if not then Geth are not networking while defenses are on and as such they have to act as singular platforms...which would be total BS

Either way since it is obvious people/synthetics are communicating with the defenses still on then defenses should NOT provide any protection to hacking skills

You forgot C: There are numerous Geth programs active on a single Hunter/Prime platform, enough that it can act independently despite any interference its defenses might cause with the Heretic network.

And here is your in-game proof - when there is only one Geth left, they do not suddenly become unable to perform more than basic actions - they are able to take cover, charge, return fire, stay invisible etc. just like they can when more than one is on-screen. Because the fact that a Prime has shields/armor does not stop the programs WITHIN the platform from interfacing.

[RiouHotaru]

...Also, whoever said Story/Lore > Game mechanics is smoking some serious grass, because that's just silly. Game Mechanics cannot always match Lore, in fact, there's an entire Trope for this separation: Gameplay Versus Story Segregation.



You do realize that even with cooldown penalites, many of the game's powers still have incredibly short cooldowns. Remember when I said Neural Shock had a 3 second cooldown? That's BEFORE applying cooldown bonuses from your class skill or tech upgrades. Even if you doubled the cooldown as a penalty it's still broke, especially if you're using the AOE evolutions.



Also, the reason that heat-sinks make sense even for rich warlords and Spectres is that heatsinks are cheap, plentiful, and easy to produce. Because of the fact the LORE states it improves your RoF (Rate of Fire), arms manufacturing companies were quick to cash in on this profitable market. Before long heat-sinks and heat-sink using guns became the only kind of firearm you could purchase anymore. No one wanted the old (read: ME1) inferior firearms. Hell, Zaeed used one for the sake of sentiment until it ceased functioning.

[PsyrenY]

I'm all for a hybrid system though. There's no reason in either science or lore that my gun should stay hot indefinitely if I run out of clips. And again, it would un-nerf Soldiers - they become useless without them.

I'm just not going to wail/gnash my teeth if we don't get one in ME3, and stay with clips.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 27 août 2010 - 07:11 .

[Zurcior]

When people talking about heatsinks say it's stupid that they can't cooldown and be re-used I get confused. Isn't the rapid heating and soon after rapid cooling of certain materials a bad thing? Like with metals?

[Spinnazie]

crimzontearz wrote...


I know, Heatsinks were a retcon for gameplay's sake

THREADS OVER

Why did you make another heatsink thread? You answered your "question" in the first sentence of your post.

[PsyrenY]

Zurcior wrote...

When people talking about heatsinks say it's stupid that they can't cooldown and be re-used I get confused. Isn't the rapid heating and soon after rapid cooling of certain materials a bad thing? Like with metals?

Heatsinks cooling down for reuse is silly - They would melt/warp too much to be put back into guns that way.

Guns cooling down over time is what makes sense, and what doesn't happen.

[crimzontearz]

Optimystic_X wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

WTF are YOU on about? How do you know the suit VI has anything to do with the comm system, or has any wireless vulnerability at all?

It has ONE function that we know about - managing the shields. This has been extended in Mass Effect 2 to managing the barrier amps/mass field generators used by the other two defenses. Everything else you ascribe to it is an ass-pull.

ok.......let's see if I give you an in-game example we can move forward

Geth Hunters and Primes have layers of armor and shield (and on insanity ALL geth have shields). They communicate with all the other geths AND they network with each other all while the defenses are up so Either

A: Defenses do NOT prevent data sharing and comm, at which point any synthetic should be Hackable at any given point just like they were in ME1 regardless of the barriers

or

B: there is a VI that is in charge of letting comm and Data Sharing go through the defenses as needed (by either lowering defenses during data sharing and comm or whatnot) since defenses are indeed blocking the comm/data sharing stream (may not be the same VI that regulates the armor and shields hence why added "or another VI is" in my post).

if not then Geth are not networking while defenses are on and as such they have to act as singular platforms...which would be total BS

Either way since it is obvious people/synthetics are communicating with the defenses still on then defenses should NOT provide any protection to hacking skills

You forgot C: There are numerous Geth programs active on a single Hunter/Prime platform, enough that it can act independently despite any interference its defenses might cause with the Heretic network.

And here is your in-game proof - when there is only one Geth left, they do not suddenly become unable to perform more than basic actions - they are able to take cover, charge, return fire, stay invisible etc. just like they can when more than one is on-screen. Because the fact that a Prime has shields/armor does not stop the programs WITHIN the platform from interfacing.

there are many programs active in EVERY single unit not just the largest ones, but geth network with each other to gain computing power at all time and above all in combat (and larger platforms are supposed to make every other geth in the proximity more efficient). They could not do it if data  transfer did not pass through defenses (above all on insanity where EVERY geth has shields). A single geth just because is alone does not lose ALL its faculties but is left with only basic/animal intelligence (as per Tali and the Codex) and will still be able to fight for its own survival and whatnot...although he will not be able complex tactical manouvers and stuff (unless of course it is a platform like Legion or an uber Geth Prime).  If Data passes through defenses then Hacking attemps should too

[Valmarn]

Zurcior wrote...

When people talking about heatsinks say it's stupid that they can't cooldown and be re-used I get confused. Isn't the rapid heating and soon after rapid cooling of certain materials a bad thing? Like with metals?

Yes, but "rapid" is a relative term, as are "hot" and "cold."

Point being, there's no way to tell how hot the weapons in Mass Effect are getting. Yes, the thermal clips in Mass Effect 2 glow red hot, but who knows what materials they're made of?

Still, you bring forth an interesting point: after repeated heating and cooling cycles, many materials can/will degrade, in some aspect. With that being said, in the instance of a hybrid heat sink/overheat system, perhaps the thermal clips could be made to degrade after so many overheat-cooldown cycles, and must be replaced.

Modifié par Valmarn, 27 août 2010 - 09:26 .

[PsyrenY]

crimzontearz wrote...

there are many programs active in EVERY single unit not just the largest ones, but geth network with each other to gain computing power at all time and above all in combat (and larger platforms are supposed to make every other geth in the proximity more efficient). They could not do it if data  transfer did not pass through defenses (above all on insanity where EVERY geth has shields). A single geth just because is alone does not lose ALL its faculties but is left with only basic/animal intelligence (as per Tali and the Codex) and will still be able to fight for its own survival and whatnot...although he will not be able complex tactical manouvers and stuff (unless of course it is a platform like Legion or an uber Geth Prime).  If Data passes through defenses then Hacking attemps should too

Their behavior during combat isn't complex enough for you to judge whether they are using their neural network to full capacity - or indeed, whether they are using it at all. The actions they take in a fight - moving, shooting, seeking cover etc. - are the same whether Shepard is fighting one platform or twelve at once. Obviously, a great deal of data transfer is simply not needed for a geth platform to fight effectively, and the benefits gained by voluntarily removing any impediments to communication would not be worth the risk of opening the entire platform to a hacking attempt.

As for "animal intelligence" - Legion claims that a single geth program has the complexity of a VI. VIs have memory, can speak languages, perform estimates/calculations, and many other tasks that animals cannot do, so I dismiss that claim. I consider Legion to be more of an authority on geth than Tali.

And that's just one PROGRAM - a platform (i.e. an enemy unit) typically has around 100!

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 27 août 2010 - 10:02 .

[Skyblade012]

While I may not like the heatsinks, I have to admit that they tried to fit them in with the lore.



There is no such attempt made to fit in the ineffectiveness of powers against defenses, however.



In fact, the lore definition of kinetic barriers indicates that it is completely incapable of defending against tech attacks, as the hacking is done via electromagnetic radiation, not a direct landline, and the definition of kinetic barriers explicitly states that they don't do anything to protect against radiation.



Further, kinetic and biotic barriers should offer no protection from biotics, because biotic fields are also non-physical, and would not trigger shield activation. And if a biotic field hit an active element zero field, the two fields would interact catastrophically, which is the entire principle behind the Javelin weapon system.



And ablative armor holds no properties that would protect against hacking attempts, and only marginally increased mass to resist biotics.

[PsyrenY]

Skyblade012 wrote...

1) In fact, the lore definition of kinetic barriers indicates that it is completely incapable of defending against tech attacks, as the hacking is done via electromagnetic radiation, not a direct landline, and the definition of kinetic barriers explicitly states that they don't do anything to protect against radiation.

2) Further, kinetic and biotic barriers should offer no protection from biotics, because biotic fields are also non-physical, and would not trigger shield activation. And if a biotic field hit an active element zero field, the two fields would interact catastrophically, which is the entire principle behind the Javelin weapon system.

3) And ablative armor holds no properties that would protect against hacking attempts, and only marginally increased mass to resist biotics.

1) Clearly they do defend against radiation, otherwise the team would have fried like eggs on Haestrom. Perhaps they didn't back in ME1, but it's 2 years later.

2) They wouldn't, unless the shield generators/barrier amps were upgraded in the past two years to anticipate react to localized mass effect attacks.

3) Hard, reflective surfaces do mitigate electromagnetic radiation, which is what the wireless signal required to hack remotely would be.

So to summarize - time has passed, upgrades were made.

[ShadoX_LV]

Optimystic_X wrote...
..

You forgot C: There are numerous Geth programs active on a single Hunter/Prime platform, enough that it can act independently despite any interference its defenses might cause with the Heretic network.

And here is your in-game proof - when there is only one Geth left, they do not suddenly become unable to perform more than basic actions - they are able to take cover, charge, return fire, stay invisible etc. just like they can when more than one is on-screen. Because the fact that a Prime has shields/armor does not stop the programs WITHIN the platform from interfacing.

Didn't Legon say that he was indeed working alone while the rest of the Geth were networked? (or something along those lines)

[PsyrenY]

ShadoX_LV wrote...

Didn't Legon say that he was indeed working alone while the rest of the Geth were networked? (or something along those lines)

He is in fact the only true Geth platform outside the Veil. All the rest that you encounter are Heretics.

But the programs within his platform are networked. When he goes through EDI's firewall to access the FTL comm system, EDI describes it as "thousands of voices speaking at once."

There seems to be some confusion about what a geth really is. A geth is a VI program. Each geth unit you see in-game is a platform, but each platform is not 1 geth - it ranges from dozens/over a hundred geth.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 27 août 2010 - 10:53 .

[crimzontearz]

Optimystic_X wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

there are many programs active in EVERY single unit not just the largest ones, but geth network with each other to gain computing power at all time and above all in combat (and larger platforms are supposed to make every other geth in the proximity more efficient). They could not do it if data  transfer did not pass through defenses (above all on insanity where EVERY geth has shields). A single geth just because is alone does not lose ALL its faculties but is left with only basic/animal intelligence (as per Tali and the Codex) and will still be able to fight for its own survival and whatnot...although he will not be able complex tactical manouvers and stuff (unless of course it is a platform like Legion or an uber Geth Prime).  If Data passes through defenses then Hacking attemps should too

Their behavior during combat isn't complex enough for you to judge whether they are using their neural network to full capacity - or indeed, whether they are using it at all. The actions they take in a fight - moving, shooting, seeking cover etc. - are the same whether Shepard is fighting one platform or twelve at once. Obviously, a great deal of data transfer is simply not needed for a geth platform to fight effectively, and the benefits gained by voluntarily removing any impediments to communication would not be worth the risk of opening the entire platform to a hacking attempt.

As for "animal intelligence" - Legion claims that a single geth program has the complexity of a VI. VIs have memory, can speak languages, perform estimates/calculations, and many other tasks that animals cannot do, so I dismiss that claim. I consider Legion to be more of an authority on geth than Tali.

And that's just one PROGRAM - a platform (i.e. an enemy unit) typically has around 100!

BS, even the developers specified in several interviews/blogs/tibits when the first ME came out that when there is a number of geth on the field they are smarter (they said it would be the same in-game too but so far....) because they keep networking. Yes each program has the complexity of a VI  but most VIs are really nothing more (this is in the codex) than a glorified Search Engine with voice recognition. Some VIs are more similar to OSs (like the Shepard VI). VIs do not have "memory" per se they "access it" just like a web browser would access a site after a search for "italian food recipes" (hence the whole search engine  comparison) whereas a Geth can store memories on its own data banks (their hardware on the mobile platforms) and upload them to the community. Without access to the community a Geth cannot access all the memories, Legion himself has to ask for access to the comm relays to find a Geth audio log for Shepard)

here's the VI Codex

A virtual intelligence is an advanced forms of user interface software. VIs use
a variety of methods to simulate natural conversation, including an audio 
interace and an avatar personality to interact with. Although a VI can provide 
a convincing emulation of sentience, they are not self-aware, nor can they 
learn of take independent action.

VIs are used as operating systems o commercial and home computers. Menial VI 
'agents' are also available. Agents are compact and specialized. Some serve as 
personal secretaries, filtering calls and scheduling meetings based on user-
defined priorities. Other are advanced search engines, propagating themselves 
across the extranet to collate user-requested data.

Commercial VIs in a variety of stock personalities are available at any 
software retailer. Boutique firms and hobbyists also build unique VIs to 
personal specification. Although software emulation of living personalities is 
illegal, reconstructions of famous historical figures are common.


but I am digressing

The codex itself says Geth commune on the battlefield, Game-play wise it might not be noticeable because ME combat AI kinda sucks but that's the idea behind the geth being more dangerous while in groups.  

as proof here's a piece of the codex

The geth possess a unique distributed intelligence. An individual has 
rudimentary animal instincts, but as their numbers and proximity increase, 
the apparent intelligence of each individual improves. In groups, they can 
reason, analyze situations, and use tactics as well as any organic race.


I would say that the codex itself trumps Legion, legion himself never says that the above is not true, and he is "more" than a single platform intelligence-wise because he contains the equivalent of 10 platforms worth of computing power.


Shepard himself says that the geth hubs rendered the Geth he encountered more efficient Legion replies  that that's because the hubs are like cities housing millions of geth programs. Furthermore on Legion's loyalty mission you can see geth with full defenses communing with the geth hubs.

ultimately, there is very little doubt that this "defense" busines, like heatsinks, was a retcon for gameplay's sake, and a lot of people are understandably miffed by it.


here's to hope that bioware listens

[JRKnight]

Valmarn wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

When people talking about heatsinks say it's stupid that they can't cooldown and be re-used I get confused. Isn't the rapid heating and soon after rapid cooling of certain materials a bad thing? Like with metals?

Yes, but "rapid" is a relative term, as are "hot" and "cold."

Point being, there's no way to tell how hot the weapons in Mass Effect are getting. Yes, the thermal clips in Mass Effect 2 glow red hot, but who knows what materials they're made of?

Still, you bring forth an interesting point: after repeated heating and cooling cycles, many materials can/will degrade, in some aspect. With that being said, in the instance of a hybrid heat sink/overheat system, perhaps the thermal clips could be made to degrade after so many overheat-cooldown cycles, and must be replaced.

Just to point out...  I'd say the ME2 weapons get pretty damn hot,  Hot enough to cause occasionally smoke to escape the muzzle of the barrel when using an automatic weapon.  Hot enough to cause some kind of weapons jam, and force a kind of emergancy venting system.  (Can't explain that one, but has happened to me on a few occatoins in the game.)

As for the rapid heating/cooling/degrading of metals.  It is whats known as a barrels' service life.  The barrel is what cools down, not the gun itself.  Every gun barrel has a set serivce life that is based on the quality and design of the barrel.  By today's standards, the life of a barrel various from 15,000 rounds to 20,000 rounds.  Differs greatly given certian factors, overall thicknexx and strength of the barrel helps with heat dissipation, any special coating of metal on the inner barrel (or bore)l that reduces barrel wear / resists corrosoin, and the forging process.  But that's all based on modern day firearms which use a process of air cooling, which can take several minutes to cool when using an automatic weapon like an assault rifle.  (AR-15 model, M16 and M4/ M4A1 series are derived from it)

If you want to compare it to the weapons of Mass Effect, you also got to take into effect electromagnetism...

Basically for comparison, think of the firearms protrayed in Mass Effect as the crued, prototype design railguns of today.  Same firing mechanics of magnetic repulsion and attraction used to launch a projectile.  But at the cost of generating large amounts of heat just from the generation of the magnetic fields alone, all that electrical energy pulsing through the barrel superheats the metal.  Add in the effects of the heat generated by the friction of the round traveling down the barrel, and you risk deforming and warping the barrel it'self.  Causing inperfections in the rifling and bore.  To the very point of maybe having the life of the barrel being reduced from say 17,000 rounds to a small 2,000 rounds.  Maybe even less.  Just letting the barrel simply air cool isn't enough.

Lot more effective to dump that heat into a removable heatsink, and directed away from the vital parts of the firearm.  Doesn't comprimise the performance and effectiveness of the weapon.

Modern day chemical-based firearms tend to jam because of overheated parts, espcially true when operating in harsh desert conditions, or exstensive use.  It could actually get to the point were smoke is coming off the barrel because of so much heat being generated.  That's only a few hundred degrees of generated heat,, and there is still a major difference between that and the possible levels of heat created by Mass Effect weapons.

Amount of required energy to propell a slug probably changes from firearm to firearm.  Course the slugs caliber could also be a contributing factor to they overall heat being generated.

As for thermal clips/heat sinks.  From an observers perspective, I'd through those in with weapons, and fault it to their design.  Retains heat, actual makes sense.  Something else, anyone think the ECM technology ever improved in the hardsuits?  ((ECM: Electronic-Counter-Measures))

[crimzontearz]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Skyblade012 wrote...

1) In fact, the lore definition of kinetic barriers indicates that it is completely incapable of defending against tech attacks, as the hacking is done via electromagnetic radiation, not a direct landline, and the definition of kinetic barriers explicitly states that they don't do anything to protect against radiation.

2) Further, kinetic and biotic barriers should offer no protection from biotics, because biotic fields are also non-physical, and would not trigger shield activation. And if a biotic field hit an active element zero field, the two fields would interact catastrophically, which is the entire principle behind the Javelin weapon system.

3) And ablative armor holds no properties that would protect against hacking attempts, and only marginally increased mass to resist biotics.

1) Clearly they do defend against radiation, otherwise the team would have fried like eggs on Haestrom. Perhaps they didn't back in ME1, but it's 2 years later.

2) They wouldn't, unless the shield generators/barrier amps were upgraded in the past two years to anticipate react to localized mass effect attacks.

3) Hard, reflective surfaces do mitigate electromagnetic radiation, which is what the wireless signal required to hack remotely would be.

So to summarize - time has passed, upgrades were made.

1: seriously  you are taking Heastrom as an example? the planet on which YOUR shields/barrier/armor get fried but not the Geth's? Where all equipment shorts out after a while but the geth themselves seem immune to it? please that whole mission made little sense in that department. 

2: you keep saying that.......please find thorough explanation on the codex....and I mean thorough not vague. The burden of explanation and believability is on the Developers after this kind of ***-pull not  on the fans. They screwed up. You can argue as much as you want but it makes very little sense and yes according to your logic they would be also immune to artificial gravity whuch is not a diffuse M.E.F. envelope but a single field coming from beneath the floor like....gee...a "pull" power ......can you imagine a security guards drapel on a starship  having to deal  with basically being in 0G all the time they are armored? Also if Shields and barriers were to stop radiations then most ships would now run silent all the time because the emissions would be trapped inside the barrier's envelope....which they are not. 

oh and here's the codex line for AG

Mass effect fields create an artificial gravity (a-grav) plane below the decks (note....decks, not entire envelopes), preventing muscle atrophy and bone loss in zero-gee

3: yes and if Armor/Shields blocked hacking attempts it would also block communications and data sharing altogether...which they do not since a fully shielded shepard receives comms and data ALL the time from the normandy........

no, the more one adds details the more this appears like a huge gameplay focused retcon