267 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

Arijharn wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

So, they wanted to make an AMMO SYSTEM, to make things intense in combat.

What we had in ME1 was: infinite ammo + infinite "powers"

In ME2 we have: limited ammo + infinite "powers".

What we should have got: infinite ammo + limited "powers"

That is, BioWare could have implemented the following system:

Tech mines (abilities) require onmigel. You run out of omnigel, you can't use tech mines (abilities) any more.
Biotic abilities drain hit points (replenished with medigel). You run out of medigel, you can't use biotics any more.
Mass accelerator weapons still use unlimited ammo and cooldown system.
More emphasis is put on using tech and biotic abilities in combat (for example, by making enemy shields more resistant to incoming fire, or hard to catch in the sights, like the geth hoppers in ME1, or super-tough, like the krogan), so the player is more dependent on their limited amount of omnigel and medigel. Basically it's an AMMO SYSTEM.
Balancing out "the economy" of different classes is a mathematical problem plus testing (which they do regardless)

Such system would (a) leave the MASS EFFECT LORE intact (both in regard to mass accelerator guns and tech and biotic abilities), and ( create a unique Sci-fi Shooter/RPG gameplay experience instead of a GoW clone.

No offense, but I hate your idea for one simple reason; it penalises the classes that most rely on their abilities (Engineer and Adept) for the simple reason that neither of those classes have skills to boost their weapon fire therefore they are even more penalised for the fact that not only can they not use their abilities to the same degree of consistency as firing their gun (the main strength and draw of using a Soldier) they're actually penalised for using their class 'strengths.'

Lore, in my honest opinion has to take the back seat in terms of gameplay if the Lore is going to be 'detrimental' to people's enjoyment.

Using biotic abilities isn't going to kill anyone anyway, they may feint if they don't keep their electrolytes up etc, and if you feint you're going to be more at risk of some bad guy waltzing up to your comatose body and pulling the trigger than you (a trained professional) just keeling over and dying because you didn't drink your gatorade.

On the contrary. As I said, the "powers" could be made relatively more effective than "guns", to the point that the Soldier, the best class against the mooks, would not be able to take on a miniboss such as a krogan battlemaster or geth prime without a tech or biotic bonus power, or a skilled squadmate.

And this goes to the enemies too. In ME1 enemy techs and biotics were a serious problem and had to be watched for. In ME2 they're just a joke.

And it's up to the devs to make the lore work in an enjoyable manner, instead of just discarding it. But alas.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 août 2010 - 09:36 .

[brgillespie]

justgimmedudedammit wrote...

brgillespie wrote...

In the span of time between my post above and this post, I remembered a situation in ME2 where my rifle ran dry while fighting husks and Shepard had to do a quick transition between the rifle and his sidearm.

Moments like that are why I hope they don't "retcon" the system *again* in ME3. At the least, an "ammo" system makes you use different weapons.

It's also moments like yours that expose gaping holes. EG: universal heat sinks. Not as universal as you thought.

Haha, good point.

[Eber]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

In ME1 enemy techs and biotics were a serious problem and had to be watched for.

Yeah the soldier was pretty weak in ME1 and still Bioware penalised and punished them in the sequal by giving them limited access to their one strength! For this one simple reason I am against heat sinks.

Modifié par Eber, 23 août 2010 - 08:51 .

[Lunatic LK47]

wulf3n wrote...
The weapons in ME1 made me want to use different ones. All of the ME1(with the exception of the pistol) had they're own little charms and flaws. ME2 forced me to use weapons i didn't want to. 
To me "forcing" you to use all your weapons isn't fun, giving you a "reason" to use all your weapons is.

Uh, not really. Engineers and Adepts only had access to the pistol, and they are already more ore less screwed if they got hit by damping and Sabotage at the same time. Using the other three weapons is just freaking laughable since they never had the training for those weapons.

[ShadoX_LV]

Yeah, I was also wondering why they would go from a more advanced weapon to a more generic/older style weapon. It simply doesn't make any sense.. I goes that someone was complaining about their weapons overheating all the time, but if your a decent player then thers no way that you would end up with a overheated weapon most of the time..

Heck, I hope BW brigs back those weapons. Their miles better then having to look around the level for ammo.. :|

This was only one of many things BW downgraded for ME2.. which is simply odd considering that ME2 was supposed to improve on what ME was and not do less/do it worse then the first game..

wulf3n wrote...

When is infinite ammo, ever a bad thing?

"A
well trained soldier can eject a thermal clip in under a second"...
thats great, but in ME1 a well trained soldier with an unmodified rifle
could provide effective suppressive fire, without ever over heating
his/her rifle, indefinitely!

Exactly.. Who in their right mind would give up a gun that can fire forever only to get one that runs out of ammo withint minutes..

The overheating complaint is also BS. Every decent gamer can shoot it without ovearheating.. and if it  gets too close to overaheating then you just wait 1 or 2 seconds for it to cool down.. still better then having the risk of  running out of ammo.. which happened plentty of times during ME2.

Worst thing that I can rememeber was the part on the collectors ship where we had to escape it.. We have to get  off that ship and what do I do? I spend several minutes trying to kill those human like blue/red zombie guys.. with a pistol.. How is that supposed to help me.

Modifié par ShadoX_LV, 23 août 2010 - 10:45 .

[John of Gaunt]

I never had ammo problems in ME2. Frankly if you're running out of ammo then you need to either l2power or l2aim. Not that hard.



That said, I'm not 100% happy with the way heatsinks were implemented. I'd prefer to have seen both types of weapon side-by-side, but with a choice: the old-style weapons had lower damage (because heat had to be managed in order to allow continued firing) while new-style weapons have increased damage, because there is a 'new' heatsink for each shoot, meaning that heat isn't an issue.



Of course, when I first heard about the new system, I envisioned it as being basically the same as ME1, albeit rather than a weapon being able to cool down, you had to replace the heatsink.

[wulf3n]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...
Uh, not really. Engineers and Adepts only had access to the pistol, and they are already more ore less screwed if they got hit by damping and Sabotage at the same time. Using the other three weapons is just freaking laughable since they never had the training for those weapons.

If your picking adept or engineer, your choosing not to use guns. and at least with ME1 they can still use the other guns, just not as effective as a soldier. After all its not that hard to pick up a gun and know how to shoot, compare that to ME2 where the adept and engineer seem to be physically incapable of firing any weapon other than a pistol, smg, or heavy weapon, for some unknown reason.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

ExtremeOne wrote...

This is a freaking video game we are talking about but oh i forgot there are some that will still keep this stupid myth that Mass Effect 1 was the greatest game ever with no problems. a gun having to cool down just so you can use it makes no sense and its not logical at all. The game play is most important in a game. Guns rely on bullets to work not some stupid story fiction where guns have to cool down before working. Oh and the biotics in the game do not need no stupid cool down function neither when the stupid story fiction says that biotics have bio amps implanted with in them. If a game has a great story but the game play sucks like garbage then the game is a piece of crap. Mass Effect 1 got a freaking pass on that which is a load of sh*t 

You have obviously never fired a real gun in your life. Guns HAVE to cool down all the time due to possible catastrophic failures induced by heat:  rounds firing due to being cooked off, melted barrels, complications of warping the materal in the chamber, receiver warping, and so on.

Given the amount of energy a weapon in Mass Effect generates to fire off a round, they DO in fact need to cool down. It just so happens that Bioware completely screwed up when introducing the new system.

[ExtremeOne]

Dr. Peter Venkman wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

This is a freaking video game we are talking about but oh i forgot there are some that will still keep this stupid myth that Mass Effect 1 was the greatest game ever with no problems. a gun having to cool down just so you can use it makes no sense and its not logical at all. The game play is most important in a game. Guns rely on bullets to work not some stupid story fiction where guns have to cool down before working. Oh and the biotics in the game do not need no stupid cool down function neither when the stupid story fiction says that biotics have bio amps implanted with in them. If a game has a great story but the game play sucks like garbage then the game is a piece of crap. Mass Effect 1 got a freaking pass on that which is a load of sh*t 

You have obviously never fired a real gun in your life. Guns HAVE to cool down all the time due to possible catastrophic failures induced by heat:  rounds firing due to being cooked off, melted barrels, complications of warping the materal in the chamber, receiver warping, and so on.

Given the amount of energy a weapon in Mass Effect generates to fire off a round, they DO in fact need to cool down. It just so happens that Bioware completely screwed up when introducing the new system.

  


i have fired a gun in real life. no bioware did not screwed up they made a more logical game. with guns requiring bullets.  if a gun has no bullets then it will not work simple logical idea 

[Mister Mida]

Looks like some people don't understand fully what the thermal clips are for considering they're calling them bullets. Read the codexes of both games before you're gonna scream that ME's guns need bullets to function when that's not even the question.

[Killjoy Cutter]

crimzontearz wrote...


I know, Heatsinks were a retcon for gameplay's sake and that a lor of people seem to think it was a good idea both within the fiction and in the gameplay .........but a few things have started to bug me to no end lately.

ok....let's read the codex entry

Modern infantry weapons are micro-scaled mass accelerators, using mass-reducing fields and magnetic force to propel miniature slugs to lethal speeds. Nearly every gun on the battlefield is laden with features, from targeting auto-assists to projectile shavers that can generate thousands of rounds of ammunition from a small, internal block of metal.

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

Note that the entry itself  definitely does not specify  that heatsinks improve the "damage" dealt by a weapon or its energy output (which is limited solely by the recoil inflicted on the soildier wielding it as specified by yet another entry)

ok let's start with the most obvious  

well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. : Uhm...there is NO weapon in ME2 that reloads in under a second. Most weapons' "heatsink swap time" is 1.5 seconds. So Either A: Shepard SUCKS as a soldier and is not as well trained as the average alliance Marine OR Bioware is full of ****. Top of the line weapons in ME 1 took just about that much time go from near overload (I'm not considering the whole overload time...you really have to be an idiot to let your weapon overload OR use high explosive rounds) to  "cool" with the right upgrades (The geth, according to the codex, have some of the best weapons in the galaxy)...
so exactly what was the point of heatsinks? if I have to spend the SAME time waiting for the weapon to cool off a weapon OR swap a heatsink why am I choosing a cooling method that will eventually leave me  completely unable to fire in the long run?

which leads to


most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. How exactly does this work??? For starters Heatsinks will not allow you to output rounds faster as said above.
Second, unless ALL firefights begin and end before one party's heatsinks run out then the party that uses non-heatsinks operated weapons will eventually come out on top because the former party will eventually completely run out of heatsinks and thus be unable to fire altogether.


which also leads to the question "why would anyone pick a weapon that eventually will stop firing COMPLETELY over a weapon with the same damage output that will virtually fire forever and requires just a small cooldown time?"

and

why would a race like the Geth whose soldiers do not panic, and  most certainly do not spray-and-pray on the battlefield, even be concerned with overheating a weapon when they are likely MUCH more efficient than humans in managing their waste heat?

and more impoertantly.....why not keep weapons which do not rely on heatsinks to help during long firefights of attrition in which one just cannot run back to basecamp and grab more heatsinks?

and since when does heat not dissipate? what, ME2 guns have defeated the laws of thermodynamics and they can store heat forever? WTH?


I just don't get it, it feels like Bioware just wanted to make ME2 more and more of a shooter  and just "had" to add a reload mechanism simply because you know..."GoW has one so if we want to attract that kind of crowd we have to have one too". It saddens me really because unless one is playing on insanity  this "ammo system" really does not have any effect on the gameplay  since there is always plenty of ammo (ooops sorry.... heatsinks) unless one just keeps wasting them...it adds really no "tension" to the game itself. So.....what was the point of breaking/retconning the canon in such a senseless manner?

Bah, I just hope Bioware is listening to the fans on this one and just removes the heatsinks altogether in ME3

or if they REALLY want to keep the reload action they could just add an "active cooldown" mechanism similar to the way one vents Troikas on GoW...at least that would make sense canon-wise

I've learned to always take the codex and planet descriptions and other color text with a grain of salt.

There's a planet you find an N7 mission on.  The description says that it's under quarantine because of a suspected bioweapon attack in the far past, and there are quarantine sats keeping people from landing.  There's a corporate production facility there and you go in without helments.  And that's not the only place that kind of thing happens with the planet description vs what happens when you land.

[crimzontearz]

why does everyone assume that trained soldiers would overhead their guns constantly? also....the cooldown time of a decent weapon pre-overhead is about 2 seconds if not less which is more or less the same time it takes to reload a heatsink



I still really do not see their point or how they would improve anything aside for forcing a soldier to watch their ammo constantly

[Zulu_DFA]

Mister Mida wrote...

Looks like some people don't understand fully what the thermal clips are for considering they're calling them bullets. Read the codexes of both games before you're gonna scream that ME's guns need bullets to function when that's not even the question.

Nobody calls them bullets. We call them ammumition, and that's exaclty what they are - disposable stuff that facilitates the work of the weapon.

[ExtremeOne]

Mister Mida wrote...

Looks like some people don't understand fully what the thermal clips are for considering they're calling them bullets. Read the codexes of both games before you're gonna scream that ME's guns need bullets to function when that's not even the question.

   


well the codex is complete garbage because a gun needs bullets to work plain and simple Bioware ditched a very stupid idea for a more realistic and logical idea and no one seems to even want to understand it. fiction does not mean a crap because guns have simple way of working it fires bullets and ejects the bullet casing after its done. Bioware did the right thing in ME 2

[ExtremeOne]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Looks like some people don't understand fully what the thermal clips are for considering they're calling them bullets. Read the codexes of both games before you're gonna scream that ME's guns need bullets to function when that's not even the question.

Nobody calls them bullets. We call them ammumition, and that's exaclty what they are - disposable stuff that facilitates the work of the weapon.

  


ammo is just a term for bullets 

[Zulu_DFA]

crimzontearz wrote...

why does everyone assume that trained soldiers would overhead their guns constantly? also....the cooldown time of a decent weapon pre-overhead is about 2 seconds if not less which is more or less the same time it takes to reload a heatsink

I still really do not see their point or how they would improve anything aside for forcing a soldier to watch their ammo constantly

Not only to watch, but to carry it. Ammo is the heaviest thing in the world for an infantryman. He needs only one piece of every other combat equipment, but ammo is never enough (so it takes place of every other piece of equipment he does not need for the current operation in his backpack).

Hence, assuming the "guns" are not more powerful than the've previously been (which is not the case, cause we know it's the same gunsбогые with thermal clips), any tactical advantage the thermal ammo may give to the ME soldiers is easlily defeated by the fact that "unlimited ammo" is still better, because it's un-limit-ed. Hence, the thermal ammo is a retcon. There never were such a thing as "unlimited ammo" in the ME universe. And there is in-game proof: Jessie, Jacob's loyalty mission, Shepard's first line upon awakening.

But there is a way to retcon away the thermal clips: it's called "coalesced.ini".

[ExtremeOne]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

why does everyone assume that trained soldiers would overhead their guns constantly? also....the cooldown time of a decent weapon pre-overhead is about 2 seconds if not less which is more or less the same time it takes to reload a heatsink

I still really do not see their point or how they would improve anything aside for forcing a soldier to watch their ammo constantly

Not only to watch, but to carry it. Ammo is the heaviest thing in the world for an infantryman. He needs only one piece of every other combat equipment, but ammo is never enough (so it takes place of every other piece of equipment he does not need for the current operation in his backpack).

Hence, assuming the "guns" are not more powerful than the've previously been (which is not the case, cause we know it's the same gunsбогые with thermal clips), any tactical advantage the thermal ammo may give to the ME soldiers is easlily defeated by the fact that "unlimited ammo" is still better, because it's un-limit-ed. Hence, the thermal ammo is a retcon. There never were such a thing as "unlimited ammo" in the ME universe. And there is in-game proof: Jessie, Jacob's loyalty mission, Shepard's first line upon awakening.

But there is a way to retcon away the thermal clips: it's called "coalesced.ini".

  


unlimited ammo is not better 

[PsyrenY]

Change was needed. I love ejecting clips.



Where's that Legion comic where he "ejects" his from strange places?

[Count Viceroy]

Simple matter of better gameplay over established lore.

[Moiaussi]

What I want to know is why thermal clips aren't reusable. I mean so they absorb heat and need to be replaced, so? Sit them on the outside of the armour and let them cool.

I would also like to know why our heavy weapon doesn't start each mission fully charged... what, we can't plug these things into the Normandy to recharge them? Or refill our own power cells? Pardon?

[Roamingmachine]

Speaking of stupid retcons....Anyone else irked about the tracer rounds being used? What bloody use are tracers in a at the ranges ME2 fights are conducted? And as anyone who has fired them can tell, tracers build up heat like nothing else.The only time i've ever gotten the ak-47 variant i was issued in the army to glow red was with tracers and we put plenty of regular live ammo through those things at rapid rates without any trouble.They just don't make sense in Mass Effect setting.



Oh, by the way, ammo does not equal bullets.Ammo is simply things that weapons (note, not just guns) use to affect the target.Rocks can be ammo.Pennies can be ammo (and lethal ones at that).You get the picture.A bullet refers to a very spesific kind of ammo.And on the same vein "guns have simple way of working it fires bullets and ejects the bullet casing after its done" is a load of crap in scifi settings.Just because things are done like that today does not mean that it will stay the same in the future.Or even today.Read about caseless ammunition for fun.

[Count Viceroy]

Moiaussi wrote...

What I want to know is why thermal clips
aren't reusable. I mean so they absorb heat and need to be replaced,
so? Sit them on the outside of the armour and let them cool.

I
would also like to know why our heavy weapon doesn't start each mission
fully charged... what, we can't plug these things into the Normandy to
recharge them? Or refill our own power cells? Pardon?

There's other stuff too, Like how picking up a heatsink refills "ammo" for every weapon. If you pick up 2 heatsinks and use them on the pistol, then the assault rifle and any other weapon should technically be out of "ammo" as well. As you only can carry a finite number of sinks, which are universal, there's no pistol sinks or smg sinks, therefore using them on one weapon should drain your total supply, not the supply of the individual weapon. 

I don't really care though, Ammo mannagement is more fun than unlimted ammo. In the end, thats what matters.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 23 août 2010 - 06:47 .

[Zulu_DFA]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Looks like some people don't understand fully what the thermal clips are for considering they're calling them bullets. Read the codexes of both games before you're gonna scream that ME's guns need bullets to function when that's not even the question.

Nobody calls them bullets. We call them ammumition, and that's exaclty what they are - disposable stuff that facilitates the work of the weapon.

  


ammo is just a term for bullets 

Lol.

ExtremeOne wrote...

unlimited ammo is not better 

Lol.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 23 août 2010 - 06:52 .

[ExtremeOne]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

Looks like some people don't understand fully what the thermal clips are for considering they're calling them bullets. Read the codexes of both games before you're gonna scream that ME's guns need bullets to function when that's not even the question.

Nobody calls them bullets. We call them ammumition, and that's exaclty what they are - disposable stuff that facilitates the work of the weapon.

  


ammo is just a term for bullets 

Lol.

ExtremeOne wrote...

unlimited ammo is not better 

Lol.

  


Oh I am sorry you can not understand logic but thats ok just keeping buying into the stupid fiction from ME 1 because that is full un logical bullsh*t 

[Moiaussi]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

unlimited ammo is not better 

Lol.

You figure an infinite number of pebbles tossed one at a time by hand is better than a once per battle spinal mount from a starship?

Unlimited ammo is only better if there is no trade off or cost. That isn't saying that I particularly like the new system... just that unlimited ammo is not always better.