1507 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

marquiseondore wrote...
 Reading the back of the box is merely a formality, I do like to know what the genre is before buying.  

When you see "RPG," do you think you'll probably be able to create your character?

[marquiseondore]

AlanC9 wrote...

marquiseondore wrote...
 Reading the back of the box is merely a formality, I do like to know what the genre is before buying.  

When you see "RPG," do you think you'll probably be able to create your character?

No, character creation is something new to me.  I gravitat towards JRPGs.  The last game I played that allowed me to pick a gender was the remake of Dragon Quest IV.

[Altima Darkspells]

AntiChri5 wrote...

You know, on a whim i decided to see how long it would take to find out whether or not you can be a woman in Dragon Age 2.

Guess how long?

17 seconds.

Your argument is flawed.  Firstly, you're already here and have an account.  Heck, you're in this thread.  You most likely already know you can play a female in DA2.

However, new players, on the other hand, may not.  They may see the trailers, see no mention of anyone else other than man-Hawke and assume that there is no option for gender selection.

At least with DAO, their first stage demo showed a female Grey Warden.  However, there was no iconic Warden (at least, not until the Blur videos).  There is with DA2, and I doubt they'll show her.  At best, we'll receive an off-hand remark that Hawke can be of either gender.

For the ME series, there is almost no confirmation anywhere other than dedicated video game boards (like this) that there even is a female character option.  Since that series, in particular, along with DAO's questionable This is the New **** marketting, someone could rightly assume both game series are simply another over-testosterone injected hack and slash and pass on them.

[addiction21]

marquiseondore wrote...


I posted my experience to give credence to tpryan01's assertion of not being immediately aware of ME's gender option. As I pointedly mentioned, being locked into a F/M character isn't something that would preclude me from buying/enjoying a game.

That is not to say I do not buy games that come recommended from others, I do. However I find there is something very satisfying in impulsively buying a game without "researching" and playing blindly. It takes me back to the days of no internetz or game magazines. Reading the back of the box is merely a formality, I do like to know what the genre is before buying. 

And that is your prerogative and is not a problem.

It is when someone says "it was not clear you could do this or that in a game" "I did not know you could do this or that in a game before hand" that shows a clear lack of initiative.
Especially in this day and age with the availibility of getting on the internet where you are just a few clicks away from something like this http://dragonage.bioware.com/da2/info/ (number 9 in particular to this thread).

Should there be more females present in the marketing? Sure. Not a problem. Would it help draw more females into the RPG fold? Most likely it will. If you want to know what a game is about should you take advertisements at face value? NO NO NO NO NO... no. The tools are clearly at many peoples fingertips and it is not BioWares (or their marketing departments) fault for someone not using them.

[ErichHartmann]

AlanC9 wrote...

marquiseondore wrote...
 Reading the back of the box is merely a formality, I do like to know what the genre is before buying.  

When you see "RPG," do you think you'll probably be able to create your character?

I don't......too many RPGs either have predesigned characters or only male gender.  Full customization is the exception.  That being said, anybody interested in the genre should be familiar with what's out there.   

[marquiseondore]

addiction21 wrote...

marquiseondore wrote...


I posted my experience to give credence to tpryan01's assertion of not being immediately aware of ME's gender option. As I pointedly mentioned, being locked into a F/M character isn't something that would preclude me from buying/enjoying a game.

That is not to say I do not buy games that come recommended from others, I do. However I find there is something very satisfying in impulsively buying a game without "researching" and playing blindly. It takes me back to the days of no internetz or game magazines. Reading the back of the box is merely a formality, I do like to know what the genre is before buying. 

And that is your prerogative and is not a problem.

It is when someone says "it was not clear you could do this or that in a game" "I did not know you could do this or that in a game before hand" that shows a clear lack of initiative.
Especially in this day and age with the availibility of getting on the internet where you are just a few clicks away from something like this http://dragonage.bioware.com/da2/info/ (number 9 in particular to this thread).

Should there be more females present in the marketing? Sure. Not a problem. Would it help draw more females into the RPG fold? Most likely it will. If you want to know what a game is about should you take advertisements at face value? NO NO NO NO NO... no. The tools are clearly at many peoples fingertips and it is not BioWares (or their marketing departments) fault for someone not using them.

Since this thread is about expanding DA2's appeal to new female gamers let me equate purchasing a new game with video rentals.  A new gamer who is looking to try something new will approach an establishment like Gamestop the way you would a Blockbuster. You want to leave the store with a film not return home to do more research. All you have at your disposal is 1) cover art 2) game description on the back 3) the clerk if they are not too busy. Is it too hard to add a small line that you can pick your gender?

Modifié par marquiseondore, 23 août 2010 - 11:19 .

[AntiChri5]

@Altima: Whether or not i already knew does not change the fact that it took me 17 seconds to find out. Its not like i entered some secret password. I went to google and typed "Can i be a woman in Dragon Age 2". I used the internets most basic tools in the most basic way. Its not like i flipped through pages of information.

[Ziggy]

addiction21 wrote...

marquiseondore wrote...
I posted my experience to give credence to tpryan01's assertion of not being immediately aware of ME's gender option. As I pointedly mentioned, being locked into a F/M character isn't something that would preclude me from buying/enjoying a game.

That is not to say I do not buy games that come recommended from others, I do. However I find there is something very satisfying in impulsively buying a game without "researching" and playing blindly. It takes me back to the days of no internetz or game magazines. Reading the back of the box is merely a formality, I do like to know what the genre is before buying. 

And that is your prerogative and is not a problem.

It is when someone says "it was not clear you could do this or that in a game" "I did not know you could do this or that in a game before hand" that shows a clear lack of initiative.
Especially in this day and age with the availibility of getting on the internet where you are just a few clicks away from something like this http://dragonage.bioware.com/da2/info/ (number 9 in particular to this thread).

Should there be more females present in the marketing? Sure. Not a problem. Would it help draw more females into the RPG fold? Most likely it will. If you want to know what a game is about should you take advertisements at face value? NO NO NO NO NO... no. The tools are clearly at many peoples fingertips and it is not BioWares (or their marketing departments) fault for someone not using them.

The whole point is that the ads are not likely to appeal to female gamers and make them look any further.

Modifié par Em23, 23 août 2010 - 11:20 .

[Ziggy]

AntiChri5 wrote...
@Altima: Whether or not i already knew does not change the fact that it took me 17 seconds to find out. Its not like i entered some secret password. I went to google and typed "Can i be a woman in Dragon Age 2". I used the internets most basic tools in the most basic way. Its not like i flipped through pages of information.

People generally only research games that peak their interest. That's what advertising is meant to do.

[addiction21]

Altima Darkspells wrote...



At least with DAO, their first stage demo showed a female Grey Warden.  However, there was no iconic Warden (at least, not until the Blur videos).  There is with DA2, and I doubt they'll show her.  At best, we'll receive an off-hand remark that Hawke can be of either gender.

For the ME series, there is almost no confirmation anywhere other than dedicated video game boards (like this) that there even is a female character option.  Since that series, in particular, along with DAO's questionable This is the New **** marketting, someone could rightly assume both game series are simply another over-testosterone injected hack and slash and pass on them.

Mike Laidlaw wrote...

We will show her eventually. I don't have a firm timeline, but we well.
And she is -hot-.

http://social.biowar...1/index/4507046

Well confirmation from a dev you will see her. What that will be is still up in the air so lets just wait to argue over it when it gets here

As for the "over-testosterone injected hack and slash" what changes if it was a female shown doing the exact same thing? Lots of blood and gore in DAO. Lots of killing and gunplay in ME regardless of the gender you choose. Things typically attributed to being "manly" things.

So why is it when it is a male is shown to be doing these things it is all manly and what not but when it is a female shown doing these things it is perfectly acceptable and is commonly refered to as being a "strong women"?

[AntiChri5]

And i would hardly call 17 seconds research. If they have the least interest in the game, and if gender is truly a dealbreaker, it takes almost a quarter of a minute to find out.



Besides which, that trailer is a very poor representation of the game. If i had not known it was Dragon Age i would have thought it was Diablo.



Anyone who recognises it as Dragon Age will likely know that in Origins you had a female option. Just like every other Bioware rpg.

[AlanC9]

marquiseondore wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

When you see "RPG," do you think you'll probably be able to create your character?

No, character creation is something new to me.  I gravitat towards JRPGs.  The last game I played that allowed me to pick a gender was the remake of Dragon Quest IV.

Ah. Gotcha. I never play JRPGs, but if that's your point of reference, I can see how you wouldn't expect to create your character.

Edit: conversely, if you don't play or even know about JRPGs, the idea that you might not be able to play as a female seems just bizarre. I wonder if maybe nobody at Bio thinks about those folks.

Modifié par AlanC9, 23 août 2010 - 11:32 .

[Ziggy]

The topic clearly states it's about appealing to new female players.

[Fhaileas]

Altima Darkspells wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

You know, on a whim i decided to see how long it would take to find out whether or not you can be a woman in Dragon Age 2.

Guess how long?

17 seconds.

Your argument is flawed.  Firstly, you're already here and have an account.  Heck, you're in this thread.  You most likely already know you can play a female in DA2.

However, new players, on the other hand, may not.  They may see the trailers, see no mention of anyone else other than man-Hawke and assume that there is no option for gender selection.

At least with DAO, their first stage demo showed a female Grey Warden.  However, there was no iconic Warden (at least, not until the Blur videos).  There is with DA2, and I doubt they'll show her.  At best, we'll receive an off-hand remark that Hawke can be of either gender.

For the ME series, there is almost no confirmation anywhere other than dedicated video game boards (like this) that there even is a female character option.  Since that series, in particular, along with DAO's questionable This is the New **** marketting, someone could rightly assume both game series are simply another over-testosterone injected hack and slash and pass on them.

Well said!!! It took me a a whole year after Mass Effect's release to realize that I could actually choose my own gender and play as a female, which made me promptly buy the game. If the advertisements had been more explicit in this regard I would have bought the game on its date of release. I didn't even bother with reviews since I was so certain that the game featured a fixed male protagonist that I was utterly disinterested in playing.

[jazzy B 3]

AntiChri5 wrote...

@Altima: Whether or not i already knew does not change the fact that it took me 17 seconds to find out. Its not like i entered some secret password. I went to google and typed "Can i be a woman in Dragon Age 2". I used the internets most basic tools in the most basic way. Its not like i flipped through pages of information.

This argument is flawed.  You clearly knew the right question to ask.  Is this a question a female gamer is going to ask about every game she is going to buy?  If she is unfamiliar with RPGs and self-created characters why should she even think to ask this question?

[Ziggy]

@AntiChri5
I don't really get the point you're trying to make.Companies spend lots of money on advertising, so clearly there is a point to it.Female players tend to like games more if they can play as a female. Very few games offer that.Therefore, in order to attract new female gamers it makes sense to advertise the fact that you can.

[AntiChri5]

@Jazzy: I asked a question anyone who wanted to know should. Yes, i knew exactly what to ask. When you want to know if you can be a woman in a game, askng "can i be a woman" is generally the right question to ask. It wasnt a hard question to come up with. If it is a deal breaker then yes, it is a question she should ask. Besides which, if it is a dealbreaker then she would do well to be aware of all upcoming rpgs, since it is the only genre to reliably provide that option.



If she is so unfamiliar with rpgs as to not know one of the most basic, common features (character customisation) then Dragon Age probably isnt the game for her anyway. All of the people i knew who were unfamiliar with rpgs was very unprepared for Origins, it isnt exactly "My first rpg".



@Em: The pool of serious female rpg gamers is not that big, and likely familiar with the fact that most rpgs (and every Bioware rpg) has an option to be female. You said yourself that very few games offer that, and Bioware games have all offered that for much more then a decade now. At this point their reputation is well formed. When compared to the pool of undecided gamers in general (from hack n slash, to racing games, to CoD) it isnt impressive. That is the group this trailer (the first trailer) released is appealing to. There was no explanation of story, no combat mechanics just a guy ripping another guy apart. This trailer wasnt even meant to appeal to male rpg fans.

[In Exile]

jazzy B 3 wrote...
This argument is flawed.  You clearly knew the right question to ask.  Is this a question a female gamer is going to ask about every game she is going to buy?  If she is unfamiliar with RPGs and self-created characters why should she even think to ask this question?

The thing is, from a business standpoint, putting aside definitions of an RPG the kind of games Bioware makes could absolutely win a huge portion of the marketshare of female gamers, IMO.

The archetype for Shepard, especially in ME2 as the hero of destiny, is something that you can market to women as the opportunity to have a game centered around the female protagonist where the female protagonist is absolutely a paragon that other people aspire to. Given the general lack (in video-games, at least) of a role-model of that sort, I am a little surprised you do not see marketing target more toward women.

[Ziggy]

AntiChri5 wrote...
@Jazzy: I asked a question anyone who wanted to know should. Yes, i knew exactly what to ask. When you want to know if you can be a woman in a game, askng "can i be a woman" is generally the right question to ask. It wasnt a hard question to come up with. If it is a deal breaker then yes, it is a question she should ask. Besides which, if it is a dealbreaker then she would do well to be aware of all upcoming rpgs, since it is the only genre to reliably provide that option.

Why would you bother asking that (or in fact any) question if the trailer doesn't appeal to you? Also, many rpgs have predefined characters nowadays such as the witcher, and alpha protocol.

If she is so unfamiliar with rpgs as to not know one of the most basic, common features (character customisation) then Dragon Age probably isnt the game for her anyway. All of the people i knew who were unfamiliar with rpgs was very unprepared for Origins, it isnt exactly "My first rpg".

@Em: The pool of serious female rpg gamers is not that big, and likely familiar with the fact that most rpgs (and every Bioware rpg) has an option to be female. You said yourself that very few games offer that, and Bioware games have all offered that for much more then a decade now. At this point their reputation is well formed. When compared to the pool of undecided gamers in general (from hack n slash, to racing games, to CoD) it isnt impressive. That is the group this trailer (the first trailer) released is appealing to. There was no explanation of story, no combat mechanics just a guy ripping another guy apart. This trailer wasnt even meant to appeal to male rpg fans.

That is why the topic specifically refers to NEW female players, not ones already familiar with bioware games. I agree, serious female rpg gamers would very likely know bioware gives the option to play as a female. However, the whole point of advertising is to attract NEW buyers.

Modifié par Em23, 24 août 2010 - 12:21 .

[AntiChri5]

Do you really think there are enough NEW female gamers interested in serious dark fantasy rpgs to justify a dedicated marketing campain, especially when Bioware are easily the biggest company making such a game with a possible female protagonist? To have the first trailer dedicated to them (do not forget an earlier poster mentioned that Laidlaw clearly stated there would be FemHawke shown) when there is a massive market with many other options that Bioware dont already have eating out of the palm of their hand? The reason Bioware arent trying to appeal to the demographic you mention is that they have so few options they are going to land at DA 2 anyway. Right now Bioware's marketing isnt even trying to appeal to their traditional fanbase.

[Ziggy]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Do you really think there are enough NEW female gamers interested in serious dark fantasy rpgs to justify a dedicated marketing campain, especially when Bioware are easily the biggest company making such a game with a possible female protagonist? To have the first trailer dedicated to them (do not forget an earlier poster mentioned that Laidlaw clearly stated there would be FemHawke shown) when there is a massive market with many other options that Bioware dont already have eating out of the palm of their hand? The reason Bioware arent trying to appeal to the demographic you mention is that they have so few options they are going to land at DA 2 anyway. Right now Bioware's marketing isnt even trying to appeal to their traditional fanbase.

This is the point being argued.
Many people in this thread believe there is a lot of untapped potential there, and the op quoted lots of statistics to that effect.
It doesn't have to be a full blown campaign with cinematic trailers and all (though that would be awesome), but right now there aren't even any pictures of femhawke.
Whether there are enough potential female customers to warrant being the main target audience is doubtful, however there are certainly enough to warrant not being ignored.

Modifié par Em23, 24 août 2010 - 12:54 .

[AntiChri5]

And they arent being ignored. FemHawke WILL be shown, and did you miss the part where the OP's figures were called into doubt and she refused to defend them?



The female market doesnt really have much choice if they want to keep playing games with serious female characters (who dont have their arse hanging out for half the game). And when compared to the potential (generally non rpg) gamers the first trailer is aimed at, all the hardcore male rpg fans, all the hardcore female rpg fans combined and doubled is a very small amount.



They arent going to put much effort into marketing the game towards an audience that has very few options other then them when there are so many unclaimed customers flitting about.

[addiction21]

marquiseondore wrote...


Since this thread is about expanding DA2's appeal to new female gamers let me equate purchasing a new game with video rentals.  A new gamer who is looking to try something new will approach an establishment like Gamestop the way you would a Blockbuster. You want to leave the store with a film not return home to do more research. All you have at your disposal is 1) cover art 2) game description on the back 3) the clerk if they are not too busy. Is it too hard to add a small line that you can pick your gender?

I dont think it is too hard but should they also add lines that you can pick your race, hair color, style, tone of skin, etc etc etc...
To use your analogy if I was to go in a blockbuster (wow its been years and I used hollywood video) I did not expect a explanation of every facet of the movie.
Same when I go into a game store. When I looked at the box I am not expecting a detailed explanation of every available feature of the game.
Sure it is not a big thing to add a line that you can pick you gender but there is limited room and where does that end? Shouldnt they also add lines that you can pick a variety of races? Hair style? Hair color? Skin tone to represent specific ethnicity? It is a very slippery slope. I understand the want to be represented but I do not see it as a need. Would something with an asian on the box apeal more to asains? Sure. Somebox art with darker skin appeal to those with a darker skin tone? Yes. But (and this is the tricky part with advertising) you cannot appeal to all people at the same time while guaranteeing those specific demographics will be in the right place at the right time to see the marketing specifically directed at them and marketing costs a lot of money.
If you are walking into a game store looking to make a impulse buy, something right then and there then it is impossible to appeal to everyone all time.
I feel like I am rambling at this point.

The importent question

Should BioWare hemorrhage money attempting to market to every possible demographic around? Should they print box art and ship them with every possible demograpic depicted on the cover? Should they be making trailers portraying ever single combination of colors, genders ,and skin tones available in the game (I do think the character creator present in DAO needs a lot more work but that is another debate to be had.)

I guess this is my point

Where does it end? Sure this thread is about "getting new females" but the arguments seem to boil down to "I have to see a female to be interested" Period. It is striking me as hypocritical.

"Hey look it is a guy hacking and slashing" Lots of blood and gore but since it is a male portrayed it is all testosterone and a game made for only for guys to do guy like things.
A female is shown to be  doing the exact same things (be it in movies, trailers, tv ads, on the box) and it is a stong female so it is okay and ceases to be a male centered game by the mere inclusion of a female playable character.

Em23 wrote...

The whole point is that the ads are not likely to appeal to female gamers and make them look any further.

And how does one do that with a game that is typically associated with all the things men are known for? DAO/ME involve a lot of action and killing. Blood, gore, and gunplay. That is the meat and potatoes of the game. Killing and violence. Yes there is a story to be had but inbtween you are kill hacking and slashing. Blood and gore.
So why is it that it come of as overly male and testosterone filled when a guy is shown doing things, but it is perfectly acceptable when it is a female doing these things and she normaly would be called "strong" and a "independant" female?
(I think I have now stumbled upon a point I wanted to make another day)
Why is it okay to show a girl kicking ass but when it is a guy kicking ass it is suddenly A MALE ONLY THING?
If you have read these threads then you would see there are a lot of females that love these games. Why is it okay to show a female doing these thing but suddenly when it is a male it is some sort of insult?

Damn this thread moves to fast for me to keep up.

Em23 wrote...

This is the point being argued.
Many people in this thread believe there is a lot of untapped potential there, and the op quoted lots of statistics to that effect.
It doesn't have to be a full blown campaign with cinematic trailers and all (though that would be awesome), but right now there aren't even any pictures of femhawke.
Whether there are enough potential female customers to warrant being the main target audience is doubtful, however there are certainly enough to warrant not being ignored.

I agree there is that "untapped" potential but... well it is all about how you reach them. It is Dragon Age. Hack, slash, blood, gore, and asskicking galore. So what is the difference in the game if a guy or a girl is shown doing these things? Superficial assumptions and speculations. Thats about it.

http://dragonage.bio...om/da2/gallery/

There are as many "official" pictures of the FemHawke as there are MaleHawke. One trailer has been released, Its a little too early to be arguing that DA2 is not attempting to reach the female crowd. We still have 6 + months till it is released (next march I believe it is) but right now it is a little to early for me. Especially when we have had a dev allready say the will be showing FemHawke, and again we need to say our arguments untill we see what this means.

The thread does happen to be about DA2 and its marketing. Which we still have more then 6 months to see what this marketing is.




P.S.
Did I make any points what so ever? Does it take anyone else an hour or longer to write a post just as long? SHould I not be getting tea and playing my dog while trying to write?

Modifié par addiction21, 24 août 2010 - 01:24 .

[Ziggy]

@addiction21
It's simply that many females prefer to play games when they can play as a female. This may be hard to understand for male gamers since they can take being able to play as a male for granted and when the pc is a female she's usually designed to appeal to males.

There have been many screen shots of malehawke and a cinematic trailer and we are yet to see anything of femhawke. Yes, they have said she will be shown at some stage, but it is surely understandable to be concerned that new female players are a very very low priority.

In addition to what's in biowares interest, i'd argue that it would be in the interest of every gamer who is sick of games with overly macho male characters and overly sexualised female characters to get more females playing games.

Ultimately, bioware will decide for themselves who is worthwhile advertising for.
This thread is here to help make them think twice before dismissing female gamers.

Modifié par Em23, 24 août 2010 - 01:37 .

[Ziggy]

addiction21 wrote...
P.S.
Did I make any points whatsoever? Does it take anyone else an hour or longer to write a post just as long? SHould I not be getting tea and playing my dog while trying to write?

lol, these posts do suck up quite a lot of time without you really noticing...  i should get back to study