1507 réponses à ce sujet

[tpryan01]

I never refused to defend them I defended them continuously beyond reason to people who made summary judements on studies they refused to read.

Here is a great graph of mmorpg players showing over 23 years of age women outnumber men.
the details can be found here. (35,000 MMORPG players from most of
the popular US MMORPGs were surveyed)

http://www.nickyee.c...rint/000194.php

This is from the BBC where in 2008
"Despite gaming being seen as a male activity, female players now make up about 40% of the gaming population.
" (2400 EQ players surveyed)
http://news.bbc.co.u...ogy/7796482.stm

This is from cnet, does reference only online games
http://news.cnet.com..._3-6123172.html

This one is from nielsen and does include all gaming
http://blog.nielsen....040609_fnl1.pdf

This one is from the Entertainment Software Association and  has a lot of information including that women spend more on games than men and that women and men play the same amount
http://www.theesa.co...ESA_EF_2009.pdf

people can keep brining up little objections to one survey or another but if it isn't obvious to you that

a. There are female gamers and there are a lot more than there were even 5 years ago. (and playing at least mmorpgs which are very close in combat style to DAO)

b. Bioware crafts a lot of features in their products specifically to attract a female market

c. It is not widely known that female shepard exists or even that DAO is an amazing game for the female mmorpg player demographic

d. The current ME and DA ad campaigns nor packaging indicate that one can play as a female or that there is such righ female centric content in the games.

Please be specific with your arguements and don't simply makeblanket statements.

I am not beeing a militant feminist I just want to share the awesomeness that is femshep and Ferelden with whoever might enjoy it.

I am not asking for a big expenditure an 11x17 poster could be designed, printed and delivered to all 4500 gamestops for a little oker $2k 

Women have been waiting for a game like DAO for decades (I've been gaming since 1982) I want them to find it

I've seen mahjong enthusiasts wh never played a game like this fall in love with allistair and turn into full fledged  gamers because I was able to convince them how good it was.

Don't you want more girl gamers? Don't you want more $$$ for bioware?

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 02:44 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would say those statistics totally contradict my experience in online games. I only have a PS3, but I used to play Guild Wars (note that I've been playing games all my life for like 5+ hours a day)..

Playing Lost Planet, Gears of War and even Halo online, as well as a couple others I run into female gamers quite frequently.

And these games are predominantly targeted at males in their marketing

[tpryan01]

Edit: sorry I commited my own crime there and didn't read properly

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 02:29 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

tpryan01 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would say those statistics totally contradict my experience in online games. I only have a PS3, but I used to play Guild Wars (note that I've been playing games all my life for like 5+ hours a day)..

Playing Lost Planet, Gears of War and even Halo online, as well as a couple others I run into female gamers quite frequently.

And these games are predominantly targeted at males in their marketing

right, but I am talking about Bioware games. Girls like to game. What is wrong with telling them you have all this great content for them?

Nothing

[wwwwowwww]

tpryan01 wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

SOLID_EVEREST wrote...

I would say those statistics totally contradict my experience in online games. I only have a PS3, but I used to play Guild Wars (note that I've been playing games all my life for like 5+ hours a day)..

Playing Lost Planet, Gears of War and even Halo online, as well as a couple others I run into female gamers quite frequently.

And these games are predominantly targeted at males in their marketing

right, but I am talking about Bioware games. Girls like to game. What is wrong with telling them you have all this great content for them?

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

[tpryan01]

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

there doesn't "need to be" but if there is why not let people know


and most games have content for you.

i will bet you don't play games that don't.

When was the last time you played hello kitty island adventure ;-)

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 02:33 .

[burrito]

Women belong in the kitchen. lol

[tpryan01]

burrito wrote...

Women belong in the kitchen. lol

If there is wifi and a fee outlet for my laptop I'll make it work

[In Exile]

tpryan01 wrote...

I want to point out that at least on the claim that women deserve to the market to more seriously, and that games should be designed with female gamers in mind, I agree completely.

But the statistician in me has to harm on some of the links you brought up, because of how you present them versus what they actually found.

Here is a great graph of mmorpg players showing over 23 years of age women outnimber men.
the details can be found here. (35,000 MMORPG players from most of
the popular US MMORPGs were surveyed)

http://www.nickyee.c...rint/000194.php

...But this is a link that argues against a gender classification. I mean, it even says:

Rather than categorizing MMORPG players as male and female players, it
perhaps makes more sense to think of the two main groups as younger
male players and older female players.

More importantly, this is survey does not look at numbers but rather proportion. Their sample size has 2400 men and 400 females; they merely point out that of the two groups, most females are old and most males are young.

This does not speak to the relative proportions of each.

This is from cnet, does reference only online games
http://news.cnet.com..._3-6123172.html

Yes, but it does not reference MMORPGs, but rather:
The survey defined active gamers as those who are 13 years or
older, own at least one game device, and play at least one hour of
video games a week. Game devices include game consoles, personal
computers and handhelds. Nielsen surveyed 2,200 active gamers online in
July.

So it is a bit unclear as to what they are including into gaming device (is an IPOD a handheld gaming device, for example?) and what they define as a video-game

This one is from nielsen and does include all gaming
http://blog.nielsen....040609_fnl1.pdf

And as the study discusses, games like Solitaire, FreeCell and minesweeper are included.

In fact, when you look at the males/females 25-54 range for the number of games played, the only "real" games by most standards are: World of Warcraft and Half-Life 2. Half-Life 2 shows up only on the male gamer side.

The majority of games are free games provided by Microsoft online. This helps explain why 25% of total gamers in this survey are 55+. They are not playing Dragon Age, Mass Effect or Modern Warfare, but rather the free online games available.

So while the data is very interesting, I do not see how it is directly relevant to an incredible niche market like single-player non-MMO RPGs.

This one is from the Entertainment Software Association and  has a lot of information including that women spend more on games than men and that women and men play the same amount
http://www.theesa.co...ESA_EF_2009.pdf

This is the most interesting of the surveys. I wish they were more upfront with their data and what methods they used. The purchasing habits are interesting. Men and women seem to purchase games at about the same rate (since we do not have a confidence interval posted, but 52%-48% is effectively equivalent on most surveys).

The problem is that we see a lack of data on the Wii. I wonder how how the gender breaks down along the casual front. This is the marketing relevant information for EA.

I do have one question, though: where do you find the data for how much women spend on games? I can't see it in the pdf.

people can keep brining up little objections to one survey or another but if it isn't obvious to you that

I am not beeing a militant feminist I just want to share the awesomeness that is femshep and Ferelden with whoever might enjoy it.

I am not asking for a big expenditure an 11x17 poster could be designed, printed and delivered to all 4500 gamestops for a little oker $2k 

Women have been waiting for a game like DAO for decades (I've been gaming since 1982) I want them to find it

I'm with you here. I don't see why a company like Bioware wouldn't market the create-a-female-hero aspect of their games more aggresively. There is a distinct lack of female role models in video-games, and they could cash in on the empowerment vibe alone. Ah, well, I'm not in the boardroom making decisions.

[Saibh]

tpryan01 wrote...

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

there doesn't "need to be" but if there is why not let people know


and most games have content for you.

i will bet you don't play games that don't.

When was the last time you played hello kitty island adventure ;-)

Hello Kitty Island Adventure is for young girls. When's the last time you played Ben 10: Vilgax whatever? 

We already have confirmation that animations for male and female Hawke are being treated 50/50. We are going to see Hawke before release ("very soon", actually ), and we can be assured that we will have romances for females. DAO was the only game where I felt like I was playing as a girl. Where gender is usually ignored, there were plenty of acknowledgements of my gender all over the game. It was a great experience--one that I expect from DA2.

Modifié par Saibh, 24 août 2010 - 02:57 .

[addiction21]

Em23 wrote...

@addiction21
It's simply that many females prefer to play games when they can play as a female. This may be hard to understand for male gamers since they can take being able to play as a male for granted and when the pc is a female she's usually designed to appeal to males.

And this is why  I throw my 2 cents in and love forums. To debate and discuss. To try and understand anothers view. I admittingly have a poor handle on language skills, am a very untactfull (is that a word. As in I have not tact. I am with out tact) and it makes me come of as a jerk more often then not.

Maybe  I do take it for granted and that is the problem with personal bias. It is hard for one to see that within ones self and people tend to feel insulted when someone points out that bias. (the quick low down on my life. My Biological father came out of the closet when I was 2. I was raised by a single mother from that point on with two sisters. One who also came out when I was around 12. So I grew up surrournded by what I would consider strong women. From my mom who is a veteran and has proved when I called her a **** at age 16 she could easily kick my ass to my sisters who have never said "I saw a man doing it so only men can do it". As they have stated many times I am the perfect husband except I speak my mind like I was a women)
This is why as far as I can be aware (again we are never truley aware of our own bias's) and I would like to think gender has alway played a small role in my entertainment. I do not buy something bewcause it was a girl or a guy advertising it. I buy it because of what the product is and promises to be.
I was never put off by the Alien films which portray a strong female as the lead (and other examples i just dont feel like hunting down/looking up but will if it helps with my point) and many other males were not either. So I do have trouble with those that state "I did not see a female doing it so I should not bother with it" attitudes that have been expressed. Again I will repeat, I have no problem what so ever with ladies being shown but something so superficial should never be the determining factor when it comes to entertainment (or anything really).
Lets look at the threads and many of the posters. Many of whom admit to not being interested in the games because they did not see a female or know they could play being a female but clearly have enjoyed these games. What actually changed about the core of the game because they could play a female? Nothing aside from some minor interatcions. The blood, gore, and violence are still there. So what is the actual determining factor here?

Em23 wrote...


There have been many screen shots of malehawke and a cinematic trailer and we are yet to see anything of femhawke. Yes, they have said she will be shown at some stage, but it is surely understandable to be concerned that new female players are a very very low priority.

And I have to agree, but remember it is august. I understand being concerned but (not directed at you by the way) accusations untill later. We still have 6-7 months untill DA2 is released.  There is another poster around these boards I have known for a bit and respect him very much. MerinTB. He seems rather upset with this new trailer (Merin dont hate me becuse I am a waffle) because it does not show enough.  The new trailer was fluff only showing the one character but if DAO is anything of an example we will be getting many trailers showing off many aspects of the game.

At this point tho I find it silly to be arguing on what can or can not be happening. DA2's marketing campaing? What campaign? It has barley even started. A single CGI trailer is released (and lets not kid ourselves. It was on that day all these "where is female Hawke?" threads started")
If DAO is to be any example then we have a lot more to look forward too and that is not including any changes of heart/mind the marketing people have had since then.

Em23 wrote...

In addition to what's in biowares interest, i'd argue that it would be in the interest of every gamer who is sick of games with overly macho male characters and overly sexualised female characters to get more females playing games.

I agree and that is all there is to be said about that.

Em23 wrote...


Ultimately, bioware will decide for themselves who is worthwhile advertising for.
This thread is here to help make them think twice before dismissing female gamers.

And ultimately that is decided on numbers. As many would like not to believe marketers are in it for the money and if the numbers show the money is not there they will move onto where the money is at. If the numbers show they should market to "men" (that is a very subjective term in my eyes as many around the internet would like to "claim" they are men but they act like petulant children. It is not some sexist conspiracy to hold women down.

Em23 wrote...

lol, these posts do suck up quite a lot of time without you really noticing...  i should get back to study

Especially when it comes to some one such as myself.  I make every attempt to be as clear. concise, and polite as possible. A reason it can take me a long while to write something else. (including the time I am double checking what grammer and spelling I see as wrong. Even then I miss a lot or change some things that should never have been changed).

[wwwwowwww]

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

You're speaking as someone who doesn;t have to worry about that. There's always dlc and content in general for guys. Sexier outfits in Dead or Alive, some really heavy metal track in that racing sim you love, whatever. The extras put it are generally aimed at the male consumer.

Which isn;'t to say women wouldn't appreciate the content the content as well but we're back at square one with it being marketed towards men and women never realizing it's something they'd enjoy too because of how poor the ad campaign is.

What DLC content was their just for guys? If your referring to the mod community well that has nothing to do with bioware. 
I truly don't understand the argument here, but hey to each their own I guees.  However, bioware if your going to start targeting specific audiences let's not leave out the chinese, japenese, haitian, idian, russian, irish, pigmy, midget, hawaiin, african and all those guys/gals either. After all they game too right? 

[tpryan01]

Nobody is claiming to be "oppressed" nor are we saying Bioware doesn't love the ladies.

All that is on the table here is that presenting the game as a narrative about a specific man's journey the way ME has been presented may not properly inform NEW audiences as to the actual amazing richness the games possess.

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 04:02 .

[Bryy_Miller]

tpryan01 wrote...

Nobody is claiming to be "oppressed" nor are we saying Bioware doesn't love the ladies.

All that is on the table here is that presenting the game as a narrative about a specific man's journey the way ME has been presented may not properly inform NEW audiences as to the actual amazing richness the games possess.

Do you just want the entire thread to flat out just agree with you? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to get out of this anymore.

[SDNcN]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

tpryan01 wrote...

Nobody is claiming to be "oppressed" nor are we saying Bioware doesn't love the ladies.

All that is on the table here is that presenting the game as a narrative about a specific man's journey the way ME has been presented may not properly inform NEW audiences as to the actual amazing richness the games possess.

Do you just want the entire thread to flat out just agree with you? I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to get out of this anymore.

Typing for the sake of typing?

[wwwwowwww]

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

You're speaking as someone who doesn;t have to worry about that. There's always dlc and content in general for guys. Sexier outfits in Dead or Alive, some really heavy metal track in that racing sim you love, whatever. The extras put it are generally aimed at the male consumer.

Which isn;'t to say women wouldn't appreciate the content the content as well but we're back at square one with it being marketed towards men and women never realizing it's something they'd enjoy too because of how poor the ad campaign is.

What DLC content was their just for guys? If your referring to the mod community well that has nothing to do with bioware. 
I truly don't understand the argument here, but hey to each their own I guees.  However, bioware if your going to start targeting specific audiences let's not leave out the chinese, japenese, haitian, idian, russian, irish, pigmy, midget, hawaiin, african and all those guys/gals either. After all they game too right? 

You either really don't get what's at the root of this discussion or are being intentionally thick. I'd say this response points to the latter.

Both actually.

[wwwwowwww]

tpryan01 wrote...

Nobody is claiming to be "oppressed" nor are we saying Bioware doesn't love the ladies.

All that is on the table here is that presenting the game as a narrative about a specific man's journey the way ME has been presented may not properly inform NEW audiences as to the actual amazing richness the games possess.

That's your argument? Your telling me having a female lead doing the same thing as a male lead in some way shows more of the amazing richness of the game? I'd say one doesn't show anything more amazing than the other. If it was a female lead I can pretty much assure you that you wouldn't see guys complaining for a male lead and that the game isn't targeting a new male audience.

[tpryan01]

How do you even get that from what I just said?

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 04:23 .

[SirGladiator]

I think there's a fair number of people who are simply missing the point here. The point isn't how many women play vs how many men play BIoware, there are plenty of each, and there are more men than women, that's all pretty much a given. And if DA2 is like DAO it will be VERY 'female-friendly' in terms of the actual gameplay itself, we know that they tend to make great games that appeal a great deal to female players, which is why they have so many. Nothing to debate about any of that. The issue is simply that they do an INCREDIBLY bad job of communicating that to those that don't already know it. Which of course for us, as fans, is really completely irrelevant.



It doesn't matter whether their marketing campaign manages to convince all the folks who see it that there is no Lady Hawke option in the game because they never see her so they assume she doesn't exist. It doesn't effect us that tons of people who 'would' have bought and played the game if they had known that, instead don't buy it, and they sell a million or so fewer copies than they otherwise would have. Those of us who do know she's in the game will be able to play as Lady Hawke and have every bit as much fun as we would have if Bioware's marketing department did its job right and promoted Lady Hawke properly. Other than the fact that we would enjoy seeing Lady Hawke in pictures and trailers, Bioware's loss isn't our loss at all, it's strictly theirs.



The main point of this whole discussion is simply to point out that the marketing for the game so far has been exclusively, and poorly, aimed at male players. Of course I say poorly because there's no actual reason to believe that most, or even a majority, of male players would be more interested in seeing Male Hawke than they would Lade Hawke, particularly if she is as attractive as one of the higher up Bioware fellows said that she is. Its all just blind, and false, assumptions. The idea that showing a male character constantly in all the advertising will appeal to all male players, and that male players are the only ones that need to be appealed to, its all false choices and bad assumptions, there's nothing actually correct about any of that. The truth is that having the option to play as a male or female character is something that appeals to everyone, male and female gamers alike, and that is one of the major selling points of pretty much all Bioware games. The fact that they choose not to advertise that, a major feature that would appeal to everyone, not just men and not just women but everyone, is the stupidity that we're addressing here in this thread. Its certainly not a problem with the folks that make the game, nobody has a complaint about the game itself, it's strictly a problem with the marketing folks, who ignore some of their very best selling points altogether, and what we're saying is that they should stop doing that, let us see Lady Hawke in pictures and a trailer or two, and let the fans out there who doesn't already know, know that you actually can play as Lady Hawke in DA2. That's all we want, its pretty simple .

[Daur]

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

You're speaking as someone who doesn;t have to worry about that. There's always dlc and content in general for guys. Sexier outfits in Dead or Alive, some really heavy metal track in that racing sim you love, whatever. The extras put it are generally aimed at the male consumer.

Which isn;'t to say women wouldn't appreciate the content the content as well but we're back at square one with it being marketed towards men and women never realizing it's something they'd enjoy too because of how poor the ad campaign is.

What DLC content was their just for guys? If your referring to the mod community well that has nothing to do with bioware. 
I truly don't understand the argument here, but hey to each their own I guees.  However, bioware if your going to start targeting specific audiences let's not leave out the chinese, japenese, haitian, idian, russian, irish, pigmy, midget, hawaiin, african and all those guys/gals either. After all they game too right? 

You either really don't get what's at the root of this discussion or are being intentionally thick. I'd say this response points to the latter.

way to be a dick francisco gg

[Saibh]

Daur wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

You're speaking as someone who doesn;t have to worry about that. There's always dlc and content in general for guys. Sexier outfits in Dead or Alive, some really heavy metal track in that racing sim you love, whatever. The extras put it are generally aimed at the male consumer.

Which isn;'t to say women wouldn't appreciate the content the content as well but we're back at square one with it being marketed towards men and women never realizing it's something they'd enjoy too because of how poor the ad campaign is.

What DLC content was their just for guys? If your referring to the mod community well that has nothing to do with bioware. 
I truly don't understand the argument here, but hey to each their own I guees.  However, bioware if your going to start targeting specific audiences let's not leave out the chinese, japenese, haitian, idian, russian, irish, pigmy, midget, hawaiin, african and all those guys/gals either. After all they game too right? 

You either really don't get what's at the root of this discussion or are being intentionally thick. I'd say this response points to the latter.

way to be a dick francisco gg

No, I agree. He either doesn't get it or he's trying not to get it. There was nothing dickish about it.

Modifié par Saibh, 24 août 2010 - 04:37 .

[Ziggy]

SirGladiator wrote...
I think there's a fair number of people who are simply missing the point here. The point isn't how many women play vs how many men play BIoware, there are plenty of each, and there are more men than women, that's all pretty much a given. And if DA2 is like DAO it will be VERY 'female-friendly' in terms of the actual gameplay itself, we know that they tend to make great games that appeal a great deal to female players, which is why they have so many. Nothing to debate about any of that. The issue is simply that they do an INCREDIBLY bad job of communicating that to those that don't already know it. Which of course for us, as fans, is really completely irrelevant.

Good post, though I think it does effect current fans too as bioware makes the games bearing in mind who likes to play them. For example, if there was a larger female demographic playing mass effect, they might have actually given femshep a face model and her own movement animations etc.
edit: and tried to find out what women like in romances (but the priiiiize )

Modifié par Em23, 24 août 2010 - 04:46 .

[Daur]

Saibh wrote...

Daur wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

You're speaking as someone who doesn;t have to worry about that. There's always dlc and content in general for guys. Sexier outfits in Dead or Alive, some really heavy metal track in that racing sim you love, whatever. The extras put it are generally aimed at the male consumer.

Which isn;'t to say women wouldn't appreciate the content the content as well but we're back at square one with it being marketed towards men and women never realizing it's something they'd enjoy too because of how poor the ad campaign is.

What DLC content was their just for guys? If your referring to the mod community well that has nothing to do with bioware. 
I truly don't understand the argument here, but hey to each their own I guees.  However, bioware if your going to start targeting specific audiences let's not leave out the chinese, japenese, haitian, idian, russian, irish, pigmy, midget, hawaiin, african and all those guys/gals either. After all they game too right? 

You either really don't get what's at the root of this discussion or are being intentionally thick. I'd say this response points to the latter.

way to be a dick francisco gg

No, I agree. He either doesn't get it or he's trying not to get it. There was nothing dickish about it.

So pointing out that this "for males" dlc mostly comes from the mod community = refusing to believe women get ignored when it comes to game content?

The examples used above (the outfits and the metal track) might appeal to the stereotypical male (the college frat ass that sadly has cast a bad image on males), but not all men.