1507 réponses à ce sujet

[Daur]

Em23 wrote...

SirGladiator wrote...
I think there's a fair number of people who are simply missing the point here. The point isn't how many women play vs how many men play BIoware, there are plenty of each, and there are more men than women, that's all pretty much a given. And if DA2 is like DAO it will be VERY 'female-friendly' in terms of the actual gameplay itself, we know that they tend to make great games that appeal a great deal to female players, which is why they have so many. Nothing to debate about any of that. The issue is simply that they do an INCREDIBLY bad job of communicating that to those that don't already know it. Which of course for us, as fans, is really completely irrelevant.

Good post, though I think it does effect current fans too as bioware makes the games bearing in mind who likes to play them. For example, if there was a larger female demographic playing mass effect, they might have actually given femshep a face model and her own movement animations etc.

I doubt it, if they knew this would happen before envisoning vanderloo shep then MAYBE femshep might have recieved this

[wwwwowwww]

Saibh wrote...

Daur wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

wwwwowwww wrote...

Why does there need to be special content just for females? As a guy I don't view them as having special content just for me.

You're speaking as someone who doesn;t have to worry about that. There's always dlc and content in general for guys. Sexier outfits in Dead or Alive, some really heavy metal track in that racing sim you love, whatever. The extras put it are generally aimed at the male consumer.

Which isn;'t to say women wouldn't appreciate the content the content as well but we're back at square one with it being marketed towards men and women never realizing it's something they'd enjoy too because of how poor the ad campaign is.

What DLC content was their just for guys? If your referring to the mod community well that has nothing to do with bioware. 
I truly don't understand the argument here, but hey to each their own I guees.  However, bioware if your going to start targeting specific audiences let's not leave out the chinese, japenese, haitian, idian, russian, irish, pigmy, midget, hawaiin, african and all those guys/gals either. After all they game too right? 

You either really don't get what's at the root of this discussion or are being intentionally thick. I'd say this response points to the latter.

way to be a dick francisco gg

No, I agree. He either doesn't get it or he's trying not to get it. There was nothing dickish about it.

It's not that I'm not trying to get it, I just don't is all. Are people really so self absorbed that if they aren't told they get a choice to play a female or male that they won't play the game? 
I mean honestly would you rather have a 1 minute trailer telling  you about all the different variations of a character you can build such as male/female, beard/no beard, stubble/no stubble, old/young, tattoo/no tattoo, every skin tint possible, every eye color possible and so and and so on, or a trailer that shows you some of the action, cut scenes and heroic type feats of the game? I mean after all the later is exactly why people buy the games to play them correct? Why wouldn't marketing choose to focus on that? 
So sorry no I don't get it, hell the first DA:O commercial I ever saw I thought the main character in the game was a female, who actually turned out to be Leliana, but honestly I didn't care because the fact that I got to kick the crap out of things, become heroic and just be a bad ass was a good enough selling point for me.

[Saibh]

wwwwowwww wrote...

It's not that I'm not trying to get it, I just don't is all. Are people really so self absorbed that if they aren't told they get a choice to play a female or male that they won't play the game? 
I mean honestly would you rather have a 1 minute trailer telling  you about all the different variations of a character you can build such as male/female, beard/no beard, stubble/no stubble, old/young, tattoo/no tattoo, every skin tint possible, every eye color possible and so and and so on, or a trailer that shows you some of the action, cut scenes and heroic type feats of the game? I mean after all the later is exactly why people buy the games to play them correct? Why wouldn't marketing choose to focus on that? 
So sorry no I don't get it, hell the first DA:O commercial I ever saw I thought the main character in the game was a female, who actually turned out to be Leliana, but honestly I didn't care because the fact that I got to kick the crap out of things, become heroic and just be a bad ass was a good enough selling point for me.

Unfortunately, beard is not a demographic. Female is the second largest demographic you could possibly market to, as well as compromising every other minority. You mentioned marketing to blacks or Asians or Hawaiians, but there are females within all of those. It's not like seeing a female trailer is marketing to a tiny niche of gamers.

No one is asking for a trailer that goes into detail of the CC, but simply one featuring a lady Hawke, which can easily also feature the things you'd rather see.

[AlanC9]

tpryan01 wrote...

All that is on the table here is that presenting the game as a narrative about a specific man's journey the way ME has been presented may not properly inform NEW audiences as to the actual amazing richness the games possess.

How many potential people are we talking about here? Anyone who played DAO -- in fact, any WRPG fan -- would expect to be able to create the PC. This leaves JRPG players, who may not know what to expect from Bioware, and gamers who don't play RPGs at all, who might expect a single fixed protagonist based on, e.g., FPS experience.

A fair number of people, but I'm not sure that many of them are reachable by Bioware. And of these groups, we're only talking about the percentage who won't bother to actually look for a game that supports a female PC but who nevertheless find not having a female PC to be a deal-breaker. I don't understand this mindset enough to know how common it is.

[DragonRageGT]

While I understand the request from female gamers and I would never object to such request (women are one of the reasons I kneel down every morning and thank God also for being a man), Bioware has already blown its marketing skills to the PC market by announcing, in an interview, that DA2 is being made with the console market as the target.



If they get any sales for the PC is just like if they get any sales for female gamers. They could care less if they don't, as long as the console market meets their sales expectation. The only reason they're letting us create a female Hawke is because lots of male gamers like to play female characters. Otherwise Tomb Raider would never have sold. Or the Sorceress, Amazon, Assassin trio in D2 would never been made as female too.

[DiosMios]

Of course DA2's current marketing campaign will appeal at all to new female players. They get the hairy pleasures of Varric and Male Hawke. Nevertheless, it would be nice if WoHawke is featured in some of the upcoming trailers.

[B3taMaxxx]

DiosMios wrote...

Of course DA2's current marketing campaign will appeal at all to new female players. They get the hairy pleasures of Varric and Male Hawke. Nevertheless, it would be nice if WoHawke is featured in some of the upcoming trailers.

 No, because as it is obvious, consistency is key. Marketing isn't a hard concept to understand...........................or as it 's comprehended in this thread,  it is.....

Modifié par B3taMaxxx, 24 août 2010 - 07:24 .

[MerinTB]

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.

Market Research is BS.

[B3taMaxxx]

MerinTB wrote...

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.
Market Research is BS.

 ...................as much as the billions that is spent on it.

[marquiseondore]

MerinTB wrote...

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.
Market Research is BS.

This.

I remember watching Frontline's "The Persuaders" years ago where Clotaire Rapaille was talking about working for Sargento.  He's MO is to find the product's code word. He gathered from a focus group that the cheese was "dead" and needed to be in a zipped bag..ie body bag. 

Edited to add: Found a clip of this BS. Starts about 8:10

Modifié par marquiseondore, 24 août 2010 - 08:02 .

[B3taMaxxx]

marquiseondore wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.
Market Research is BS.

This.

I remember watching Frontline's "The Persuaders" years ago where Clotaire Rapaille was talking about working for Sargento.  He's MO is to find the product's code word. He gathered from a focus group that the cheese was "dead" and needed to be in a zipped bag..ie body bag. 

Edited to add: Found a clip of this BS. Starts about 8:10

 Bad marketing decisions are a dime a dozen, just as with most hair-brained schemes.

 That doesn't denote the importance of.

[Anarya]

marquiseondore wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.
Market Research is BS.

This.

I remember watching Frontline's "The Persuaders" years ago where Clotaire Rapaille was talking about working for Sargento.  He's MO is to find the product's code word. He gathered from a focus group that the cheese was "dead" and needed to be in a zipped bag..ie body bag. 

Edited to add: Found a clip of this BS. Starts about 8:10

Great now I'm never gonna be able to buy shredded cheese without thinking of bagged corpses.

Good thing I don't buy shredded cheese very often.

[Angel of Nessus]

Anarya wrote...

marquiseondore wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.
Market Research is BS.

This.

I remember watching Frontline's "The Persuaders" years ago where Clotaire Rapaille was talking about working for Sargento.  He's MO is to find the product's code word. He gathered from a focus group that the cheese was "dead" and needed to be in a zipped bag..ie body bag. 

Edited to add: Found a clip of this BS. Starts about 8:10

Great now I'm never gonna be able to buy shredded cheese without thinking of bagged corpses.

Good thing I don't buy shredded cheese very often.

You are one of the lucky ones- half my life is empty without it, now.

[jazzy B 3]

AntiChri5 wrote...

@Jazzy: I asked a question anyone who wanted to know should. Yes, i knew exactly what to ask. When you want to know if you can be a woman in a game, askng "can i be a woman" is generally the right question to ask. It wasnt a hard question to come up with. If it is a deal breaker then yes, it is a question she should ask. Besides which, if it is a dealbreaker then she would do well to be aware of all upcoming rpgs, since it is the only genre to reliably provide that option.

If you have no frame of refference, e.g. you've never player a western RPG before, have always played games with set protagoists then why would you even consider asking?  The assumption would be the character you're presented with in the adverts is the one you play.  Clearly you come from a background of playing western RPGs and so are familiar with the concept, but not everyone is.  Surely you can understand someone coming from a different place than you?

Edit:

In Exile wrote...

jazzy B 3 wrote...
This argument is flawed.  You clearly knew the right question to ask.  Is this a question a female gamer is going to ask about every game she is going to buy?  If she is unfamiliar with RPGs and self-created characters why should she even think to ask this question?

Thething is, from a business standpoint, putting aside definitions of an RPG the kind of games Bioware makes could absolutely win a huge portion of the marketshare of female gamers, IMO.

The archetype for Shepard, especially in ME2 as the hero of destiny, is something that you can market to women as the opportunity to have a game centered around the female protagonist where the female protagonist is absolutely a paragon that other people aspire to. Given the general lack (in video-games, at least) of a role-model of that sort, I am a little surprised you do not see marketing target more toward women.

Um, you do realise I was agreeing with you.  The marketing lacks a female role-model, so people will asume if they don't have the western RPG background that you play as a male.  I think this is very much negligent, and I would love for more females to become aware of Bioware and it's games.

Wait, I think you were agreeing with me.  I think I miss-read "you do not see marketing.." to "you do not seak marketing..."  Curse my dislexia.  But my point stands.  I think that marketing should be more even.

Editied for les line-breakage.

Modifié par jazzy B 3, 24 août 2010 - 10:39 .

[In Exile]

jazzy B 3 wrote...

Wait, I think you were agreeing with me.  I think I miss-read "you do not see marketing.." to "you do not seak marketing..."  Curse my dislexia.  But my point stands.  I think that marketing should be more even.

Editied for les line-breakage.

Yeah, I'm on the same page with you. Really, all you have to do in Bioware's case is advertise the feature to create a female PC, and then refer gamers to your previous tities. It isn't very hard to see just how awesome it can be to create a female lead compared to pretty much most other games on the market.

[AlanC9]

But didn't Laidlaw already say they were going to show us FemHawke at some point? How much would theyu need to do to promote this?

[tpryan01]

Just because we will "see" Female Hawke doesn't mean it will be easily found by non bioware fans.



Mention of female Shepard is burried even on the mass effect site.



http://masseffect.bioware.com



I suppose we will have to wait and see what "see" means.



But the current marketing does seem to be following the Mass Effect model.

[MerinTB]

B3taMaxxx wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.
Market Research is BS.

 ...................as much as the billions that is spent on it.

I worked for the nation's largest movie related market research firm (at the time) in one of their largest markets.  I witnessed, first hand, what happens at the survey and test group level, at the collating of the data level (especially the verifying the data level), at the local management level and at the national management level.  I was in meetings discussing company "directions" on how to shape opinions of the public to fit pre-conceived notions of "what they want" or "what they think."   And I think anyone with a shred of knowledge about statistics knows that it is far easier to manipulate survey results and poll numbers than it is to get useful, actionable intel from them.

Market research, not in concept but in execution, is almost exclusively used by companies to justify decisions that they were going to make ANYWAY.  It is all confirmation bias - they cherry pick what supports their ideas, and disregard what doesn't.

Honestly, you need go no further than the "rules" for how they randomize their studies and how they decide who are their demographics to know exactly how "rigged" the system is.

This isn't me saying that market research couldn't work, and that some studies aren't legitimate.  This is just me saying that the industry as a whole is a scam.

"Girls don't buy games" is put to rest by the Sims, for example.  And the Sims appealed to all genders as it was a genderless advertising campaign. *shrug*  By MMO's, one of the most profitable gaming genres ever created.  By the Wii and games like Guitar Hero - in short, by games that are not designed and targetted at 13 year old boys.
"Guys won't buy games with female protagonists, or advertised with female protagonists" is put to rest by Perfect Dark, Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, Dreamfall, Syberia, Bloodrayne, and several Resident Evils and Final Fantasy's.
These most often aren't REASONS for game companies to make decisions - they are far more often than not EXCUSES for game companies making the decisions they were going to make in the first place.

Anyone can cherry pick statistics and polls to prove whatever it is they want to prove.  That isn't science, that's rigging the system.

Modifié par MerinTB, 24 août 2010 - 04:50 .

[Bryy_Miller]

tpryan01 wrote...

Just because we will "see" Female Hawke doesn't mean it will be easily found by non bioware fans.

Mention of female Shepard is burried even on the mass effect site.

http://masseffect.bioware.com

I suppose we will have to wait and see what "see" means.

*facepalm*
Now you're just trying to justify your indignation. What, pray tell, would be good enough for you?

[tpryan01]

What indignation?

I'll buy it no matter what. Just want to share the love.

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 06:43 .

[AlanC9]

I'm still confused about where these new buyers would be coming from. I can understand a JRPG fan not knowing that DA2 will allow you to create a custom PC, but if someone is a JRPG fan he or she doesn't mind having a precreated PC anyway.

[addiction21]

No mention of Kings quest 4 and 7 in that list Merin? I am shocked.

tpryan01 wrote...



Just because we will "see" Female Hawke doesn't mean it will be easily found by non bioware fans.



Mention of female Shepard is burried even on the mass effect site.



http://masseffect.bioware.com



I suppose we will have to wait and see what "see" means.



But the current marketing does seem to be following the Mass Effect model.

Yay its my turn to say it *Carefully reads the title* Yup, we are not talking about Mass Effect. This is a thread for the discusion about DA2's current marketing campaign. So why would someone who is interested in DA2 (for whatever that reason is) go to the Mass Effect websites?



Maybe myself and a few others need to understand you and where you stand a little better. What is it you are considering marketing materials? What exactly is this current marketing for DA2?

[iTomes]

tpryan01 wrote...

Just because we will "see" Female Hawke doesn't mean it will be easily found by non bioware fans.

Mention of female Shepard is burried even on the mass effect site.

http://masseffect.bioware.com

I suppose we will have to wait and see what "see" means.

But the current marketing does seem to be following the Mass Effect model.

you know if one would visit the page now s/he wouldn't see ANYthing at all... some bearded guy in front of some blooddragon and a text about "rise to power".  on the left side is an old-looking woman and on the right side an old looking man, the woman may look a little older. however, nothing tells you even that you are male in the game. if you now are a clever person you look into the FAQ. and what do you see there? this:

"Your character in Dragon Age 2 will be a legendary figure in the history
of Thedas. Not only will you hear people respond to your conversations,
but your character will also be be fully-voiced. You will play as a
human male or female of any class you wish: Warrior, Mage or Rogue."

you can see that you are allowed to play female. if you cant youre stupid and only looking at the page for one second and dont even click on "Game Info". if you dont look at the game info you obviously arent really interested into the game, i have no idea why someone like that would actually be on the DA2 site and would just klick away saying "bahh i cant play female and i dont know bioware and i was on that side out of reasons not known to me"...
well i think it was Bryy who once told you you considered youre own gender to be stupid and he propably was right.....

Modifié par iTomes, 24 août 2010 - 07:15 .