1507 réponses à ce sujet

[jazzy B 3]

Game websites are designed for people who already have at least a passing interest in the game. You wouldn't go to them otherwise, why bother. Some may find interest where there wouldn't be any before if they found out they could play as a self-created character, sex and all up to your discretion.

[iTomes]

"A second happens to be how often everyone shopping for a game looks at it. I understand you are referring to the website but that same image would be used for posters and the like and the same points that have been raised would apply."

if someone is shoping for a game s/he propably wants to buy s/he wont try to get a game thats bout half a year away. i mean how would that person even know that there is going to be a DA2 without knowing that there was a DA1. so it doesn't matter at all for now. if im on the othe hand shoping for a game and look on the website ill most likely be on amazon for if im actually going home to research it id rather read a review. being on amazon ill most likely be told that i can be female, if not by amazon itself then most likely by users writing reviews.

dont forget that that person has to be at least 18 and that s/he most likely never heard of bioware before. and that that person is female and that the fact that the game doesn't allow you to be female is a total dealbreaker for that person. oh, and if the person doesn't like RPGs the person wont be able to do anything with the product and most likely wont buy it (if the person already looks into the web she'll also find out the genre).
well, thats a pretty small group of people.

Modifié par iTomes, 24 août 2010 - 07:34 .

[tpryan01]

jln.francisco wrote...
I can feel my self restraint slipping. Won't be much longer before my disgust becomes hostility. Oh well, I had a good run.

I think that was their plan all along ;-) 

[Inside_Joke]

The advertisements do play a big part. When I first saw a DAO commercial I honestly thought it was for an MMO or something. Mind you, I saw Morrigan turn into a giant spider and all I was thinking after that point was "I want to be a giant spider ....". Still wasn't enough to grab my attention though.



It was actually my brother who filled me in on the info and piqued my curiousity. It was only after he got the game that I actually looked into it.

I'm not a huge gamer *I have 4 for 360, 1 for PS3 and 1 for PC*, so any game that my brothers want me to play usually ends up with me getting shotgunned to the face *know what I'm saying?* Or it was Oblivion, Two Worlds *I'm just not a fan of those games*



So ya, the ads made me hesitant. It was after I played DAO that I looked into ME, which was selling for like, $6 so I grabbed it. *Now my favourite game* So the ME2 ads just got me excited for ME2 - I already knew the background to it.



So I guess what I'm saying is it depends on the type of gamer you are, or your interests, male or female.



Giant spiders are only so cool.

[iTomes]

tpryan01 wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...
I can feel my self restraint slipping. Won't be much longer before my disgust becomes hostility. Oh well, I had a good run.

I think that was their plan all along ;-) 

actually not, the plan is most likely to make you accept that you are wrong in the most of your points and that biowares marketing guys arent "evil" and "from the 50s".
but -hey- if youre already here how about posting some arguments helping your case at least i was replying to you. no answer is btw also an answer meaning "i dont know any real arguments and just pretend to be smart so nobody mentions it".

[tpryan01]

iTomes wrote...
 biowares marketing guys arent "evil" and "from the 50s".

Dude that is all you. It was never even remotely implied in my posts or thoughts

I was simply stating that the current marketing campaign makes it hard for people to understand the true nature of the game.

There have already been dozens of testimonials on how Bioware's past ad campaigns have failed to get through exactly how awesome they are to a decent number of people.

What exactly is wrong with communicating our experiences in an effort to help Bioware move more copies of the game?

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 07:58 .

[AlanC9]

jln.francisco wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm still confused about where these new buyers would be coming from. I can understand a JRPG fan not knowing that DA2 will allow you to create a custom PC, but if someone is a JRPG fan he or she doesn't mind having a precreated PC anyway.

I used to do nothing but play jrpgs. Didn't mind the predetermined protagonist then either but now that I've experienced games like Dragon Age trying to go back and enjoy a lot of the games I loved like FFVIII isn't the same. The set story and the 'decisions' they let you make feel really hollow (more so then they did then) now that I've played a character like the Warden.

So yeah, you're wrong and really grabbing at straws to excuse marketing campaigns that exclude women.

Wrong about what? I didn't advocate anything. I'm just being skeptical.

And your personal example doesn't prove much, since you did play DAO and you weren't looking for a game like DAO before you played it. 

Again, who are these people who are looking for a game like DAO but aren't looking hard enough to actually find it? Are there a lot of JRPG fans who would be WRPG fans if they only knew better? That's a bit disrepectful to the JRPG fans, though that doesn't bother me much since I'm not one.

[tpryan01]

That argument doesn't hold up because if we never found the game then how could we post here?

There is no game like DAO so how can you know what you are looking for before you know it exists?

Oh wait I know! Marketing!

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 08:03 .

[marquiseondore]

AlanC9 wrote...

jln.francisco wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I'm still confused about where these new buyers would be coming from. I can understand a JRPG fan not knowing that DA2 will allow you to create a custom PC, but if someone is a JRPG fan he or she doesn't mind having a precreated PC anyway.

I used to do nothing but play jrpgs. Didn't mind the predetermined protagonist then either but now that I've experienced games like Dragon Age trying to go back and enjoy a lot of the games I loved like FFVIII isn't the same. The set story and the 'decisions' they let you make feel really hollow (more so then they did then) now that I've played a character like the Warden.

So yeah, you're wrong and really grabbing at straws to excuse marketing campaigns that exclude women.

Wrong about what? I didn't advocate anything. I'm just being skeptical.

And your personal example doesn't prove much, since you did play DAO and you weren't looking for a game like DAO before you played it. 

Again, who are these people who are looking for a game like DAO but aren't looking hard enough to actually find it? Are there a lot of JRPG fans who would be WRPG fans if they only knew better? That's a bit disrepectful to the JRPG fans, though that doesn't bother me much since I'm not one.

Perhaps. When I bought DAO my younger brother scoffed.  He said "Eww Bioware. They made Mass Effect. :sick:".  Of course he changed his tune after playing the wonderful goodness that is DAO.

[iTomes]

tpryan01 wrote...

iTomes wrote...
 biowares marketing guys arent "evil" and "from the 50s".

Dude that is all you. It was never even remotely implied in my posts or thoughts

I was simply stating that the current marketing campaign makes it hard for people to understand the true nature of the game.

There have already been dozens of testimonials on how Bioware's past ad campaigns have failed to get through exactly how awesome they are to a decent number of people.

What exactly is wrong with communicating our experiences in an effort to help Bioware move more copies of the game?

oh, there is nothing wrong with communicating about experiences. but THAT for example isn't communicating about experiences. neither is "will DA2s current marketing blabla". neither is what mostly stands here. and NO, you didn't say that 50s thing, but there were people in your threads who did (aaand im to lazy to search for it. live with it).
besides: write arguments.

[tpryan01]

Dude THAT was about shutting down my original post about marketing and hiding it behind a fan art thread that had nothing to do with the topic. We talked and made up and I got a new thread.

I have been writing arguments, statistics, anecdotes, allegories and plain common sense.

What exactly do you object to about the argument. It is clear you are not a fan of me, but what about telling people about the awesome things you can do in the game are you objecting to?

Are you  really only posting on this thread to get revenge on me?

I just want to sell more copies of the game.

I am not threatening you.

And what specifically is wrong with asking 

"Will DA2's current marketing campaign appeal at all to new female players?"

Would it be better to say

"Do you feel that DA2's current marketing campaign appeal's to NEW female players."

Modifié par tpryan01, 24 août 2010 - 08:35 .

[iTomes]

tpryan01 wrote...

Dude THAT was about shutting down my original post about marketing and hiding it behind a fan art thread that had nothing to do with the topic. We talked and made up and I got a new thread.

I have been writing arguments, statistics, anecdotes, allegories and plain common sense.

What exactly do you object to about the argument. It is clear you are not a fan of me, but what about telling people about the awesome things you can do in the game are you objecting to?

Are you  really only posting on this thread to get revenge on me?

I just want to sell more copies of the game.

I am not threatening you.

And what specifically is wrong with asking 

"Will DA2's current marketing campaign appeal at all to new female players?"

Would it be better to say

"Do you feel that DA2's current marketing campaign appeal's to NEW female players."

sorry that im answering late, i was eating a delicious steak . however, i dont want revenge, i dont even know for what.
soo: if you want to sell more copies of the game then you most likely should trust biowares marketing. those are not totally dumb, yknow. i for example stated earlier why it isn't necessary to make the campaign more female appealing right NOW because it propably wouldn't attract that much new players, but it could propably confuse some others...

youre not threatening me. why do you always take everything personal? if im going into a thread because i dislike things written or there or think that there are wrong assumptions done OR think that its full of mistakes thats not a direct attack against you, even tough you propably think it is. im simply asking you questions, for you propably are the one whos most competent to answer questions about her own thread. besides, answering to statements made by persons who are online and most likely reading what im sayin makes sense to me.

c) you are saying that you want to talk about how other females got to play DA or something along that line. youre not saying that in the headliner. that was all i was saying.

d) if im talking about things that i read in threads like this earlier (and there were several hundreds i guess) im not attacking you. im just saying that things were said by others that are just stupid. why would one attack bioware on a bioware forum if one wants something of them. wouldn't you have to be like "pleaaase bioware give me ..... pleaaaaasssseeee"????

[Bryy_Miller]

iTomes wrote...
well i think it was Bryy who once told you you considered youre own gender to be stupid and he propably was right.....

I would never go as far as to tell someone what they think. I'd tell them what they sound like, or try to call them out on an implication.

[tpryan01]

iTomes wrote...
 i for example stated earlier why it isn't necessary to make the campaign more female appealing right NOW because it propably wouldn't attract that much new players

Can you please paraphrase why you believe this to be true?

[Bryy_Miller]

tpryan01 wrote...

Dude THAT was about shutting down my original post about marketing and hiding it behind a fan art thread that had nothing to do with the topic. We talked and made up and I got a new thread.

Okay, but that's not the point. Tom's point was that you are making mountains out of molehills, and it is very stand-offish. I mean, this is what you wrote:

"The thread we have been told to use is a fan art thread.

Please give us back a thread where we can discuss equal representation.

What started out as my slight discomfort at our lack of acknowledgement has turned into a strong feeling that we are not wanted. 

I beleive the charged thread that was closed was nuetered and redirected to a fan art thread to quiet down us uppity women. "

Instead of PMing the mod or even the admins, your initial knee jerk reaction was to make an entirely new thread calling the BioWare forums sexist.

And what specifically is wrong with asking 

"Will DA2's current marketing campaign appeal at all to new female players?"

Nothing. It's completely valid as a question. What's wrong is the fact that you have proven time after time that you simply don't care if you get a response.

[Altima Darkspells]

Can we keep the personal attacks to a minimum? Reply to a post or thought, not the person.



It is most likely EA that is responsible for the marketing and not BioWare. I'd like to think that the Blur videos for DAO would've been a whole lot better had BioWare been given input. I'm looking at you, Miss Morrigan, who appears to have fallen off the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.



"Why bother marketing to women?"



Because the game will sell more? If the statistics given by tpryan01 are any indication, more women have access to gaming-grade computers, too, so if perhaps if EA's marketing department had perhaps shown BOTH Wardens, EA wouldn't be using the excuse that DAO selling more on the console is the reason for the vast changes of DA2 (and it is an excuse--given the short development cycle, the decision to focus on the console aspects of DA2 was made before the release of the actual game, but that's neither here nor there).



"Just showing a woman won't make women buy it or even be interested in it."



Really? Because that seems to be the thought with showing a male in marketing. Man-Shepard? So over-active teenagers can see a big, strong Badass McEveryPC and empathize. Blur-Warden? Same difference. Every other game in existance? You betcha.



"When you see a man on screen, hacking every thing to pieces, it's a testosterone hack-and-slash, but when it's a woman, it's okay?"



Not 'okay,' per se, but more like different. Frankly, different is good. Have you ever seen an appropriately garbed (main character) female in any sort of marketing? I bet if you have, it's only perhaps a handful of times, compared to the hundreds of commercials, web banners, and so on otherwise.



Marketing is about catching attention. Showing a badass Lady Hawke next to M. Hawke isn't a bad thing. As I said, different in good. The market is hitting the great wall of visual ability, meaning art and style are becoming more important than bloom.



And, frankly, right now DA2 is looking far more similar to other games despite its own 'unique' art style. It looks bland and boring. Heck, the Destiny trailer could easily be made into something similar to Gear of War--add in a few guns, an explosion or two, more brown, and voilla.



Am I the only one tired of the same old drivel force-fed to us by marketing departments because they think we're not intelligent enough to handle anything other than, "Big, strong man, skantily clad faux action girl, big explosion, GOOD GAME!"?

[Bryy_Miller]

Altima Darkspells wrote...
Am I the only one tired of the same old drivel force-fed to us by marketing departments because they think we're not intelligent enough to handle anything other than, "Big, strong man, skantily clad faux action girl, big explosion, GOOD GAME!"?

Am I the only one tired of people demonizing buisnesses because they can?

[MerinTB]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Altima Darkspells wrote...
Am I the only one tired of the same old drivel force-fed to us by marketing departments because they think we're not intelligent enough to handle anything other than, "Big, strong man, skantily clad faux action girl, big explosion, GOOD GAME!"?

Am I the only one tired of people demonizing buisnesses because they can?

Probably.

[Xayasha]

Female gamers are used to playing males anyway, guys are less used to playing as girls though.

I mean, if we restricted ourself to games with female character leads, we wouldn't play very much.

[Bryy_Miller]

jln.francisco wrote...
Am I the only one tired of people not saying anything and trying to sound all open-minded and critical?

How can someone try to sound open minded and critical?

[B3taMaxxx]

MerinTB wrote...

B3taMaxxx wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I worked in Market Research for nearly 5 years.
Market Research is BS.

 ...................as much as the billions that is spent on it.

I worked for the nation's largest movie related market research firm (at the time) in one of their largest markets.  I witnessed, first hand, what happens at the survey and test group level, at the collating of the data level (especially the verifying the data level), at the local management level and at the national management level.  I was in meetings discussing company "directions" on how to shape opinions of the public to fit pre-conceived notions of "what they want" or "what they think."   And I think anyone with a shred of knowledge about statistics knows that it is far easier to manipulate survey results and poll numbers than it is to get useful, actionable intel from them.

Market research, not in concept but in execution, is almost exclusively used by companies to justify decisions that they were going to make ANYWAY.  It is all confirmation bias - they cherry pick what supports their ideas, and disregard what doesn't.

Honestly, you need go no further than the "rules" for how they randomize their studies and how they decide who are their demographics to know exactly how "rigged" the system is.

This isn't me saying that market research couldn't work, and that some studies aren't legitimate.  This is just me saying that the industry as a whole is a scam.

"Girls don't buy games" is put to rest by the Sims, for example.  And the Sims appealed to all genders as it was a genderless advertising campaign. *shrug*  By MMO's, one of the most profitable gaming genres ever created.  By the Wii and games like Guitar Hero - in short, by games that are not designed and targetted at 13 year old boys.
"Guys won't buy games with female protagonists, or advertised with female protagonists" is put to rest by Perfect Dark, Tomb Raider, Mirror's Edge, Dreamfall, Syberia, Bloodrayne, and several Resident Evils and Final Fantasy's.
These most often aren't REASONS for game companies to make decisions - they are far more often than not EXCUSES for game companies making the decisions they were going to make in the first place.

Anyone can cherry pick statistics and polls to prove whatever it is they want to prove.  That isn't science, that's rigging the system.

 While I agree with your disdain for it, it doesn't make it any less viable. There are some developers that do not use 'test groups'. Besides, they have little impact on the actual blatant reality of the situation.

 I would play the game reguardless of their pin-up boy/girl, in far as saying this with the knowledge of being able to create my own character anyways. For consistency sakes I agree with BW in only portraying one version of Hawke. For example, take all the frivilous questions asked on these boards. Questions that can be easily accessed in the FAQ page. I think having more than one 'hero' would only further confuse these people, the ones who ask erroneous questions and care little to use their Google search feature..