30 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidewinder_617]

i'm mayby new to the forum, but not to mass effect, and i think most of you guys have
characters from EVERY class... well, almost.

vanguards charge, sentinels tank up, soldiers go matrix-you got the point;
bioware put a lot of creativity into the tools shepard can bring up against the reapers,
but in the end, the class left most untouched is the omni-tool handler.

so i started thinkin' what else can make that omni-tool more useful-and fun, and came up with this:
engineers are mostly about manipulation- combat drones, hacking, tali's energy drain etc.
and supporting teammates.
they're ME's beastmasters. so why not give them BEASTS?
like a customised/costumisble drone? or other drone types? or making hacked enemies have buffed weapons/powers, or taking direct control over them?

point is, engineers are about using improvization to win battles, so why not give them more tools to improv with?

any other ideas, please reply.

[Neuzhelin]

Sidewinder_617 wrote...

i'm mayby new to the forum, but not to mass effect, and i think most of you guys have
characters from EVERY class... well, almost.

vanguards charge, sentinels tank up, soldiers go matrix-you got the point;
bioware put a lot of creativity into the tools shepard can bring up against the reapers,
but in the end, the class left most untouched is the omni-tool handler.

so i started thinkin' what else can make that omni-tool more useful-and fun, and came up with this:
engineers are mostly about manipulation- combat drones, hacking, tali's energy drain etc.
and supporting teammates.
they're ME's beastmasters. so why not give them BEASTS?
like a customised/costumisble drone? or other drone types? or making hacked enemies have buffed weapons/powers, or taking direct control over them?

point is, engineers are about using improvization to win battles, so why not give them more tools to improv with?

any other ideas, please reply.

Engineers got screwed by Bioware. Every class has a unique ability except from an engie and the worst part is: they won't change it. Would take too much effort and too many files to update. Better luck in ME3.

[PsyrenY]

While it may not be unique, the Engineer's combat drone is still a joy to use, because Shepard's cooldown is so much lower than Tali's/Legion's that it may as well be a different ability. (3 seconds vs. 30).

[Kronner]

Engineer's combat drone is so much better than Tali's/Legion's it can hardly be thought of as the same ability. You can spam the little helper to bug enemies and shotgun them to the face. Incinerate is pretty good too, just take Energy Drain as your bonus power and you are all set.

[lazuli]

Kronner wrote...

Engineer's combat drone is so much better than Tali's/Legion's it can hardly be thought of as the same ability. 

Optimystic_X wrote...

While it may not be unique, the Engineer's combat drone is still a joy to use, because Shepard's cooldown is so much lower than Tali's/Legion's that it may as well be a different ability. (3 seconds vs. 30).

Agreed.  It's certainly useful, but in ME3 it should stick out more.

Modifié par lazuli, 23 août 2010 - 07:54 .

[xiiz]

The Engineer Drone is amazing, definately one of the best abilities in the game imo... Had a blast playing mine. Like others said, it's way better than Tali/Legions' drones, It's just underrated.

[Alamar2078]

The drone is the "spam" skill of choice for the class. I admit that more hacking / "destroying" shields / running ECM [make it harder to target you] / etc. all sound like ideas to be looked into.

[PsyrenY]

Attack Drone is also strong against biotic barriers. This means that technically Engineers have an attack for all three defenses without bonus powers, a claim only the Sentinel can similarly boast. (They aren't quite as strong at removing biotic barriers - but that's what the Locust is for)

[Arhka]

You need to play strategy with the Engineer a lot. CD is invaluable in positioning with a shotgun. Flashbang balances out the single target of CD by providing a broad-area CC.

[termokanden]

The problem with Engineers is not that they don't have a unique ability. As has been said above, 3 second (less with research) cooldown drone is very, very good and also unique. Drone wouldn't work well if it had a long cooldown, and indeed I find it useless for squadmates.



The 3 sec. drone, however, is in fact some of the best CC in the game.



The problem with Engineers is that some other classes are overpowered and that tech powers have no synergy.

[mosor]

termokanden wrote...

The problem with Engineers is that some other classes are overpowered and that tech powers have no synergy.

Overpowered is an ugly word. People's definition of overpowered is bound by their skill with the powers that class has and how much they enjoy using those skills. Enjoyment factor is key. Overpowered has no meaning in a single player game. So if you enjoy the class play it.  I actually had a lot of fun playing the engineer on insanity.  The funniest thing was casting the attack drone on the preatorian. Watching  the attack drone shoot the preatorians butt and have it constantly turn around  to face the drone while it moves toward you is hillarious.

[termokanden]

Still, I feel that certain abilities are overpowered (don't care if the word is ugly or not), and that people are judging the "lesser" classes too harshly based on this.

Note that I don't actually want the game changed because of this. It just annoys me somewhat that people can no longer play Infiltrators because Adrenaline Rush is so good, and that Energy Drain is currently the only "acceptable" bonus power for Sentinels, if you read this forum.

The only problem is that you're comparing your class to something that isn't there. Also, speed of clearing the game seems to be a measure that some people use here. That's rather worthless to me. It's quicker not to start up the game at all.

Modifié par termokanden, 24 août 2010 - 12:21 .

[mosor]

termokanden wrote...

Still, I feel that certain abilities are overpowered (don't care if the word is ugly or not), and that people are judging the "lesser" classes too harshly based on this.

Note that I don't actually want the game changed because of this. It just annoys me somewhat that people can no longer play Infiltrators because Adrenaline Rush is so good, and that Energy Drain is currently the only "acceptable" bonus power for Sentinels, if you read this forum.

The only problem is that you're comparing your class to something that isn't there. Also, speed of clearing the game seems to be a measure that some people use here. That's rather worthless to me. It's quicker not to start up the game at all.

I like energy drain or area reave on a sentinel. Mainly because, I like punching to death most enemies, and energy drain/reave  is effective in making that happen easily. By elbowing people to death on insanity, I wanted to do something different. Some people like cyro blast so they can freeze and shatter that enemy if they follow up with a heavy throw. 

People are all going to say what they think is best. I'm guilty of that as much as anyone else. Maybe deep down, I think some people have trouble with insanity and want to help with it, so I suggest the most effective class and build from my perspective to get that achievement. Logically, I really should assume that most people on this forum have beaten the game on insanity.

As for speed of clearing rooms. Some people do that to compete. Like do the initial suicide run with an adept in under 6 min. Whatever strikes their fancy. Doesn't mean you have to follow their builds. Though something they suggest may give you ideas in how to have the most fun playing your character.

As for engineer. I don't think of it as a lesser class. Maybe not as exciting for most people. However, it's a fun, viable class for me. Sometimes being superman (either with charge, powerful armor, superhuman reflexes, magic powers, or a cloak of invisibility) makes the accomplishment of beating the game less grand than someone with the odds stacked against you. Not that I think playing the engineer is difficult mind you

[termokanden]

Well I got that argument thrown in my face when arguing that Flashbang Grenade is good. Energy Drain makes you clear levels faster and therefore you shouldn't use Flashbang Grenade. OK, but what if I don't care if I can clear levels 0.352 or even 531 seconds faster with Energy Drain?

This is also the kind of reasoning I think is hurting people's opinion of the Engineer class. Forget about all that. Engineers are excellent at crowd control and breaking through defenses. I can confirm that it is in no way hard to complete the game on Insanity with an Engineer.

By all means if tech powers and drones are your thing, pick an engineer.

PS: If you really like elbowing things on Insanity, I've done that plenty with my Engineer. Drone on an enemy and beat them to death. Good times.

Modifié par termokanden, 24 août 2010 - 02:09 .

[PsyrenY]

I find Energy Drain is rather overestimated on these boards. Quite apart from it being useless on organic/unshielded enemies (particularly Collectors), it also lacks the weapon overheat debuff that Overload gets, and it sticks your Sentinel with the slow-traveling Warp instead of instant-hit Reave or deadly AP ammo.



There's a reason most of the Sentinel vids showing off Energy Drain are on Haestrom, or the Alarei. I prefer a more well-rounded loadout myself.

[OniGanon]

mosor wrote...
Overpowered has no meaning in a single player game.

That's ridiculous. Things can definitely be overpowered in a single player game. If you took the Cain, gave it infinite ammo and no charge up time, try and tell me that wouldn't be overpowered.

There is balance in any game, single or multiplayer. The only difference is NPCs aren't as likely to complain about imbalances on forums.

Modifié par OniGanon, 24 août 2010 - 06:15 .

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

Optimystic_X wrote...

While it may not be unique, the Engineer's combat drone is still a joy to use, because Shepard's cooldown is so much lower than Tali's/Legion's that it may as well be a different ability. (3 seconds vs. 30).

That's no argument at all. A short cooldown doesn't improve the combat drone at all. It's NOT spammable. All you can do is hit the shortkey for the drone over and over again, it's not going to make the drone more powerful or anything. Were you able to set up 2 drones at once it would be useful.

[termokanden]

OniGanon wrote...

There is balance in any game, single or multiplayer. The only difference is NPCs aren't as likely to complain about imbalances on forums.

"Adrenaline Rush is overpowered. Damn soldiers kill me every time before I can even react. NERF!"

That's no argument at all. A short cooldown doesn't improve the combat drone at all. It's NOT spammable.

No offense, but that's complete nonsense. Most targets are not likely to survive for anywhere NEAR 30 seconds, and drone doesn't even last that long. Therefore, you need a much lower cooldown. Furthermore, if you actually tried the drone on Insanity, you'd know that whether it stays up the whole duration is down to luck sometimes.

Engineers live and die by the drone. You NEED a short cooldown.

And even then you're completely ignoring the fact that the cooldown is on your next power, whatever that power is! That is, if you have a 30 second cooldown drone and you use it, no more abilities AT ALL for 30 seconds.

[BlackbirdSR-71C]

termokanden wrote...

OniGanon wrote...

There is balance in any game, single or multiplayer. The only difference is NPCs aren't as likely to complain about imbalances on forums.

"Adrenaline Rush is overpowered. Damn soldiers kill me every time before I can even react. NERF!"

That's no argument at all. A short cooldown doesn't improve the combat drone at all. It's NOT spammable.

No offense, but that's complete nonsense. Most targets are not likely to survive for anywhere NEAR 30 seconds, and drone doesn't even last that long. Therefore, you need a much lower cooldown. Furthermore, if you actually tried the drone on Insanity, you'd know that whether it stays up the whole duration is down to luck sometimes.

Engineers live and die by the drone. You NEED a short cooldown.

And even then you're completely ignoring the fact that the cooldown is on your next power, whatever that power is! That is, if you have a 30 second cooldown drone and you use it, no more abilities AT ALL for 30 seconds.

What I stated isn't true as it stays, I apologize for that. The short cooldown does help, yes, but only in one way: You can activate your drone and then quickly use another power. I've played through insanity with my Engineer two times. Would the cooldown be longer I wouldn't be able to use another power after using the drone as quickly, but I've yet to be in a situation in which the short cooldown would've been needed to keep the drone alive. Whenever I use it, it stays near the enemy, attacking it; each attack makes the enemy stagger for a second, long enough to keep them from firing a single shot; every single of my drones lastet the entire 24 seconds, with one exception: The praetorian fights. However, given that the drones don't keep the praetorian occupied anyway, that doesn't make a difference.

[mosor]

OniGanon wrote...

mosor wrote...
Overpowered has no meaning in a single player game.

That's ridiculous. Things can definitely be overpowered in a single player game. If you took the Cain, gave it infinite ammo and no charge up time, try and tell me that wouldn't be overpowered.

There is balance in any game, single or multiplayer. The only difference is NPCs aren't as likely to complain about imbalances on forums.

Well yes that would be overpowered. Is it meaningful? If using the cain all the time to clear a room isn't your idea of fun, don't use it. It doesn't have any meaning. Personally I haven't used a heavy weapon on any mission since the first time I played. I prefer guns or melee. So no matter how overpowered a cain that rapidfires is, it's not meaningful to me.

[PsyrenY]

BlackbirdSR-71C wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

While it may not be unique, the Engineer's combat drone is still a joy to use, because Shepard's cooldown is so much lower than Tali's/Legion's that it may as well be a different ability. (3 seconds vs. 30).

That's no argument at all. A short cooldown doesn't improve the combat drone at all. It's NOT spammable. All you can do is hit the shortkey for the drone over and over again, it's not going to make the drone more powerful or anything. Were you able to set up 2 drones at once it would be useful.

You're missing the point. You don't just spam the drone, you spam everything else. The drone's low cooldown means that you can seamlessly work it into an Incinerate/Overload/Bonus rotation. Most importantly of all, it distracts powerful enemies (e.g. Harbinger, Geth Primes, Scions, Pyros etc.) allowing you to lock them down and keep them from advancing on your squad's cover while you rip through the defenses of the rank and file.

[OniGanon]

mosor wrote...
Well yes that would be overpowered. Is it meaningful? If using the cain all the time to clear a room isn't your idea of fun, don't use it. It doesn't have any meaning. Personally I haven't used a heavy weapon on any mission since the first time I played. I prefer guns or melee. So no matter how overpowered a cain that rapidfires is, it's not meaningful to me.

Yes it's meaningful if you have to gimp yourself to have any fun with the game.

[termokanden]

Well my experience with the drone is that mostly it survives for its duration, but every so often, someone will hit it with a shotgun or something and I have to cast a new one quickly. So yes I do believe the lower cooldown works there.



Anyway, we can agree that the drone in itself is NOT a unique skill. Shepard's version is just incredibly superior. The squadmate versions are horrible. Because of their incredibly long cooldown, I've given up on using them,

[Simbacca]

Just last night I was playing my insanity Engineer again.  Gave him Area Overload, Incineration Blast, Explosive Drone, Cryo Blast, Demolisher, and Neural Shockwave, then hit the Omega 4 relay. 

Now let me say that during all my playthroughs, in never use Tali unless I have to and I never put points in Legion's Drone.  Why not?  I've tried it several times but it's awful.  They cast it, and with it always being insanity the Drone's die fast leaving them twiddling their thumbs for the whole cooldown.  What I get isn't worth the cooldown when there are other squadmates that can be hitting them every 4.5 to 9 seconds with powers that damage and CC far more. 

But my Engineer?  The Explosive Drone is always out and I can still fire off Incineration Blasts and Neural Shockwaves at those Collector bastards.  The short cooldown makes the power; I can actually keep an enemy locked down with Shepard's Drone while still firing off other abilities.

termokanden wrote...

...The problem with Engineers is that some other classes are overpowered and that tech powers have no synergy.

I would guess that the reason Adepts can have Warpbombs is because Warp has no AoE when used independently.  Both of the Engineer's defense stripping powers powers have AoE, and can serve as crowd control as well.

To be on topic with the thread somewhat, I don't feel Engineers need anything more to balance them with the others (though I can see how some of the other classes could be scaled back a bit).  The only argument I can see is how the Combat Drone isn't unique, but really it feels like it is since the squadmate versions are useless to me.  In fact they should have left it as unique for Shepard and give Legion and Tali something else different and more useful.

Modifié par Simbacca, 24 août 2010 - 03:20 .

[Sidewinder_617]

The combat drone would be much nicer if you could assume command of it,

say through AI hacking (and every other synthetic enemy for that matter).

Engineers are about indirect fighting, and while they're better then they used to be,

this concept can be expanded to a great degree, making the engineer the choice

for tacticians.