27 réponses à ce sujet

[rickcr]

I was going to go with a lethality/cunning build for my archer (and when I use Leliana.) From what I can gather the typical spec involves just enough dexterity (with fade bonuses) so that you can use the best bows then the rest is dumped into cunning.

My question is was this determination done also considering hit rates? I'd assume dexterity affects how often you hit? That being the case, how do you know what the exact balance is? 

For a hypothetical if my damage is 100 but I miss 50% of the time, this would be worse than someone with a damage of 51 but hits 100% of the time (not factoring in crits.)

If dexterity affects chance to hit maybe I shouldn't dump all extra points into cunning?

[rayzorium]

Dexterity and strength both contribute to your attack score, which determines your chance to hit. Ranged weapons are not exempt from this, so yes, you gain chance to hit from dex. The exact way it works isn't very easy to reference - your chance to hit depends on the enemy' defense as well as your attack.

Cunning archers aren't particularly good, anyway - especially non-Warden ones. Archers can't use Exploit Weakness and only the Warden can use Tainted Blade. As far as damage goes, cunning archers only get a tiny bit of armor pen and better Bard songs - that's it.

Edit: Just to clarify, I don't think they're straight up bad by any means - but the damage advantage from cunning is definitely not as great as it is for melee rogues, and they can't flank as freely to make up for their lack of attack.

Modifié par rayzorium, 23 août 2010 - 09:10 .

[termokanden]

I thought strength only affects your MELEE attack rating. If not, it's bugged, because that's what the game says.



Anyway, when the OP says typical build, it's probably either:



a) For the versions of the game without the fix that makes dex affect bows.

or

For melee builds that can get the full effect out of cunning.



Currently, dex I think is the way to go with archers.

[rayzorium]

Oop. Yeah, melee attack only. Muh bad.

[rickcr]

rayzorium wrote...
Cunning archers aren't particularly good, anyway

This seems to conflict with all the research I've read about DA archers. Cunning/Lethality/Bard-Song of Courage  - seems to be the consensus for the strongest archers.  

but the damage advantage from cunning is definitely not as great as it is for melee rogues, and they can't flank as freely to make up for their lack of attack.

Yes I'm sure cunning melee rogues have advantages over archers, but I'm confused why you would say cunning isn't the way to go for an archer as well. With lethality using cunning as strength and stacking song of courage on top seems much better than a str/dex archer, but I certainly could be wrong, I'm just going what I've seen others post in some detailed studies. However in those other posts I wasn't able to see how they were factoring in hit%.

(By the way how are people figuring out all these stats and damage amounts anyway - I don't see how to find them on my PC version.)

[rickcr]

termokanden wrote...

I thought strength only affects your MELEE attack rating. If not, it's bugged, because that's what the game says.

Anyway, when the OP says typical build, it's probably either:

a) For the versions of the game without the fix that makes dex affect bows.
or
For melee builds that can get the full effect out of cunning.

Currently, dex I think is the way to go with archers.

I'm currenlty on the PC with the latest patches.

[termokanden]

rickcr wrote...

This seems to conflict with all the research I've read about DA archers. Cunning/Lethality/Bard-Song of Courage  - seems to be the consensus for the strongest archers.

There is no such consensus. While Lethality does work, cunning still does not add attack, and since ranged weapons cannot backstab, you will not get the bonus from Exploit Weakness.

Dex gives you damage and attack. Instead of a small amount of armor penetration, you get defense.

As for stacking Song of Courage, yes it will be weaker with a dex based character. However, I'm not sure the difference is enough to justify losing a lot of attack and defense. Note that the biggest buff comes from simply using it, but it takes a lot of cunning to get more out of it, all at the cost of attack and defense.

As for what they do in other posts. From what I've seen, they simply assume you have 100% hit rate, in which case any buff to attack will seem to be worthless. Also, because it is about pure DPS, they will ignore survivability from defense as well.

For all of these reasons, it seems a bit silly to me to say that cunning based archers are the best.

I have a gut feeling that both for melee and ranged rogues, the best is to not go full cunning or full dexterity. But finding the optimum is pretty difficult, considering I don't know what the actual numbers for defense and attack enemies actually have.

Modifié par termokanden, 24 août 2010 - 12:35 .

[beancounter501]

With Archery your attack rating is determined by both strength and dexterity. Each point will give a .5 attack. Your damage is determined by both strength and dexterity - again a point is either one has the same effect. Or dexterity + cunning if you have lethality. I personally think the cunning archer will have a really hard time. Melee Rogues can get away with it more because of the huge attack bonus from flanking. I don't think archers get a flanking bonus. Plus archers have a harder time hitting in general because most mobs have a higher ranged defense.

[termokanden]

And here's the reason dex based archers are superior in Awakening: A little talent called Accuracy. It buffs your attack rating, your crit chance AND your crit damage based ONLY on dex.

Modifié par termokanden, 24 août 2010 - 02:24 .

[Last Darkness]

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Archery%3A_An_Efficient_Approach
Thats the guide you want to read.

[rickcr]

very interesting stuff. Sorry termokanden that I sounded like I was doubting you.. I just remember when I was searching the forums for archer builds there were some pretty extensive ones I read and most were talking about lethality/cunning builds. What you guys are saying makes sense though (and it's actually in a sense what I was wondering about myself with my dexterity impact question.)



Thanks for all the feedback!

[Elhanan]

I like to wear heavy armor with my Rogue archers, so I skip Lethality and take 38 STR (even higher in DAA). This also allows for shield use if you get caught in melee. There are several spec and Rogue talents that will be useful, too.

Modifié par Elhanan, 24 août 2010 - 06:54 .

[Last Darkness]

Elhanan wrote...

I like to wear heavy armor with my Rogue archers, so I skip Lethality and take 38 STR (even higher in DAA). This also allows for shield use if you get caught in melee. There are several spec and Rogue talents that will be useful, too.

^ Knows WTF he talking about. I disagreed with many of his builds but still tried them and I was very surprised.

[termokanden]

rickcr wrote...

very interesting stuff. Sorry termokanden that I sounded like I was doubting you.. I just remember when I was searching the forums for archer builds there were some pretty extensive ones I read and most were talking about lethality/cunning builds. What you guys are saying makes sense though (and it's actually in a sense what I was wondering about myself with my dexterity impact question.)

Thanks for all the feedback!

No problem, you and I have been in exactly the same situation. Figured I should explain myself carefully.

I still haven't decided how to build my future DW rogue.

[rickcr]

By the way how do people come up with these numbers to calculate damage done etc? Is there a way to get a summary somehow after combat how much damage you did, hit%, etc?



You'd think using the toolkit you can set up a situation where you get to attack a single mob with some really high HP (and no attack), and then see how long it takes to bring him down with different builds. You hear so much talk about things like "Don't use rapid fire, since your crit damage will end up helping out more." or "Don't waste your time with Aim or Arrow of Slaying" - My question is how are people calculating these numbers to prove out their theories?

[rickcr]

Last Darkness wrote...

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Archery%3A_An_Efficient_Approach
Thats the guide you want to read.

This was one of the guides that mentions most points into cunning (not counting awakenings):

"Stat distribution: enough dexterity to equip your weapon of choice with Fade, gear and specialization bonuses, the rest into cunning"

[rayzorium]

That's a pretty good question. Many people get their information from looking at the scripts, but, as with most things, most people go off of personal experience, and others' personal experience. I'd say that's as good as it gets, but that's just being lazy. In many cases, there's really no way to know for sure until see for yourself. And even then, that might not be accurate, as randomization is so severe in this game.

I'll give you an example. Since the game came out, most of the community was absolutely convinced that console versions had bugged bow damage. Console users made some overly simplistic assumptions about damage calculation and came to the very incorrect conclusion that because 1 str or dex gives ~0.3 damage, bows get 30% from str/dex rather than the actual 50%. How could anyone think that? No weapon in the game gets the ratio that their attribute modifiers suggest - of course they don't; there's much more to the formulae than that. And yet, nobody doubted it. Why would they? Consoles were known to be buggy. Why not just take it at face value?

I tried to explain it on the XBox tech support forums and few people believed me. I asked PC users here to test it to show that console and PC damage is identical. One response, confirming this fact, then nothing. I've already edited out many references to it on the wiki, but there's probably no point. I'd be extremely surprised if the console community didn't continue believing that their bows do less damage than PC users' until this game fades into obscurity. People will keep finding the threads that declare the woes of console users and their bugged bows, and they'll believe it because they don't see any reason to ask "how do people know that?"

Modifié par rayzorium, 25 août 2010 - 06:35 .

[Last Darkness]

Your attack score is universal, Str and Dex add the same amount to it point for point.

[termokanden]

Yes, but this is not about strength versus dex, it's about dex versus cunning. Cunning does not give you attack rating.

[Random70]

termokanden wrote...

Yes, but this is not about strength versus dex, it's about dex versus cunning. Cunning does not give you attack rating.

SoC does. That, combined with Dueling, Aim and Farsong will give a decent attack rating. While I wouldn't try to solo one, in party mode the Cunning Archer is quite viable and arguably, a superior setup to DEX.

[termokanden]

I'm not actually arguing that a cunning archer isn't viable in DAO. However, whether it is superior to a dex based archer depends entirely on your definition of "superior". I'm personally unconvinced that it's worth it losing a huge amount of survivability for a bit more extra damage. Particularly after trying a dex based archer - you just don't get hit!

In Awakening, the story is quite different though, as you are probably well aware. There I have no doubts whatsoever that dex based archers are the best.

Modifié par termokanden, 26 août 2010 - 10:32 .

[Last Darkness]

termokanden wrote...

I'm not actually arguing that a cunning archer isn't viable in DAO. However, whether it is superior to a dex based archer depends entirely on your definition of "superior". I'm personally unconvinced that it's worth it losing a huge amount of survivability for a bit more extra damage. Particularly after trying a dex based archer - you just don't get hit!

In Awakening, the story is quite different though, as you are probably well aware. There I have no doubts whatsoever that dex based archers are the best.

Viable, but dont delude yourself that its "just a bit more damage" Proper Cun Archers hit for one hundred to two hundred damage every attack continusly (In origens) thanks to 100%+ Crit rates and attack speed buffs its very damaging.

[DWSmiley]

Random70 wrote...

[SoC does. That, combined with Dueling, Aim and Farsong will give a decent attack rating. While I wouldn't try to solo one, in party mode the Cunning Archer is quite viable and arguably, a superior setup to DEX.

Yep.  My last rogue archer finished with dex 30, cun 82 (sans gear) and a hit rate of 90%.  And that hit rate is sort of misleading because it was bad until level 7 when I took duelist and it was 99%+ from level 15 on, with my SoC and Alistair's Rally.  Injuries were not a problem.  I stayed close enough to the front lines to be within the AoE of rally and rock mastery but I rarely had to defend myself.  Shale's earthen grasp is marvellous crowd control.

Modifié par DWSmiley, 26 août 2010 - 02:07 .

[termokanden]

I guess I could agree that cunning is better if you have a well-functioning party.

I normally don't though. I just can't be bothered to micromanage my other party members. I do control them a little, but I prefer to just use tactics for them. For me defense is very valuable.

In Awakening, however, the damage boost from Accuracy that's based on dex is just too large to ignore.

Modifié par termokanden, 26 août 2010 - 02:24 .

[DWSmiley]

termokanden wrote...

In Awakening, however, the damage boost from Accuracy that's based on dex is just too large to ignore.

Indeed.  Thank goodness for the Manual of Focus!