162 réponses à ce sujet

[Joshh Avatar]

Hello! I recently revisited this fantastic game, and noted the lack of *decent* spell choice lists for Bg2 Sorcerers
online. I have soloed  SOA & TOB on the highest difficulty twice, and am currently playing through the game in LAN mode with a good friend; Dual sorcerers, with multiple difficulty increasing mods activated, including tactics, SCS2, and others of my own making.

Here is my list, optimized for playing solo on insane, but these picks are in my opinion the best, and
will always be useful on any sorcerer in bg2:

Level 1:
Magic Missile
Identify
Spook                        
Burning Hands
Protection From Evil

Level 2:
Agannazar's Scorcher
Melf's Acid Arrow
Knock (Not necessary if you arent soloing, still nice to have.)
Mirror Image
Resist Fear

Level 3:
Dispell Magic ( Remove magic is a more party-friendly alternative, but cannot be used to remove Hold)
Flame Arrow
Melf's Minute Meteors (Energy discs make these redundant, Slow & Vampiric Touch are good alternatives)
Skull Trap
Haste    (For your 5x skeleton minions, Boots of speed are for you)

Level 4:
Fire Shield Red
Greater Malison
Improved Invisibility
Stoneskin
Teleport Field    (Or Confusion) (Or Spirit armour, should you decide you like the saving throw bonus) (lol)

Level 5:
Animate Dead
Breach
Lower Resistance ( With pierce magic in the mix, extremely debatable choice. I'd swap it out for chaos.)
Spell Immunity
Sunfire (Or Chaos)

(To Spell Shield Fans: Spell turning >Spell shield. Same job, cancels beholders nailing you, but its actually useful in *other* situations, and it gives the beholders back what they gave.)

Level 6:
Pierce Magic    ( Lowers enemy magic resistance and removes a spell protection simultaneously)
Contingency    ( I use this to make myself invisible when helpless- ie held, will save your life alot.)
True Sight    ( For making untargetable enemy mages targetable.
Protection From Magical Weapons (Stoneskin wont always work, some enemies hit too fast / use elemental dmg)
Improved Haste (You know how your Dark Planatar is totally awesome?This spell DOUBLES his damage output.)
(If you get Normal planatar instead of Dark Planatar for any reason, you are a terrible person.)

Level 7:
Finger Of Death    (Dragons, Greater wolfweres, mindflayers, beholders, and many more will fall to this spell.)
Mordrenkainen's Sword    ( Fodder summon that cannot take physical damage, Excellent wall for you)
Ruby Ray Of Reversal  (I must concede to my peer on this, spell trap is the only real threat, and using this spell instead of spellstrike gives you an extra casting of a high level ability spell to use.)
Project Image    (Another you to use, all spell uses can be doubled)
Spell Turning    (My counter to beholders, traps, & Enemy spellcasting.)

Level 8:
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting    (Excellent damage, party friendly,  syncs well with chain contingency)
Power Word Blind    (No Save one man disable) (Simulacrum is also a very acceptable alternative here)
Protection From Energy    ( Powerful protection from all kinds of non-physical damage)
Spell Trigger    (For 3x lower resistance, necessary for quickly removing a boss's protections)

Level 9:
Chain Contingency    ( Triple Abi-Dalzims on sight is... Hi, I just reached level 18. You die now.)
Wish    (For potential double time stop with alacrity/ free rest during combat)
Time Stop    (For when you want to pull a Chronos and wail on them when they cant retaliate)
Shapechange (Its not bad. Healing as a greater wolfwere is handy if you need the hp on the fly. Your thaco sucks though, so if youre looking at mindflayer or golem, stop it, and look at dragon breath instead.)

Tier 9:
Improved Alacrity.
Dragons Breath:wizard:

Fallen Planetar. Etc.


These are my spell picks, indepth reasoning for each one coming soon;
Any alternate reasonings?

-Joshh

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 28 août 2010 - 12:09 .

[polytope]

I haven't heard of any two players agreeing on the best spells for a sorcerer.

FWIW I would take:

* Minor Spell Deflection instead of Flame Arrow (good defense available at low levels)

* Spirit Armor instead of Fireshield (there's a staff that casts fire shield anyway)

* Possibly Spell Shield instead of Lower Resistance, then at level 6 Pierce Magic instead of Chain Lightning, the reason being that Pierce Magic does double duty by removing enemy spell protections if they have them, and some enemies are immune to lower resistance.

* Ruby Ray instead of Finger of Death (especially with the SCS tweak that makes it AoE)

* Shapechange instead of Spellstrike

It all depends on your playing style I guess...

Modifié par polytope, 24 août 2010 - 04:54 .

[Joshh Avatar]

Thanks for the reply:
I really should have mentioned that I did not install the spell edits for scs2, only the ai difficulty increases, and I also edited the scripting to allow for that.

That said, My spell counters are as follows
Flame arrow's Damage is fantastic, it should be on every sorcerer's spell list bar none,
and at low levels defending against spells isnt a key focus; mirror image will serve that purpose admirably anyway.
I strongly disagree with buffing a Sorc or wizard's AC as a form of defence. Especially on insane and especially in TOB where they will hit you anyway, you do not want to get hit and you do not want to waste a spell slot. Also, the item you mentioned has limited casts(20) I believe.

Spell immunity negates the need for spell shield, as spell immunity - abjuration will negate all the removal spells such as pierce magic.

Pierce magic is the only one of your suggestions I could possibly agree with, Chain lightning's DPS isnt exactly amazing, but it is nevertheless a nuke you may need should you be out of spells for other levels, - pierce magic is outdone by both spellstrike and lower resistance, lower resistance removes a great deal extra, and spellstrike removes *all* protections, not just one.
Why do two jobs badly instead of one well?
*Edit- I love to be proven wrong sometimes, totally changes perspective^^

Ruby ray being AOE would indeed be excellent, but it still absolutely would not negate FoD, fantastic spell, especially after malison. Even then, its aoe single buff removal vs two spell strikes to remove all the protections on *both* enemy mages- you rarely face more than two at once.

And shapechange for spellstrike is just funny
*Edit- lol, I ate my words- but Im still not fond of shapechange.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 27 août 2010 - 12:04 .

[AnonymousHero]

At least a few enemies are immune to LR. Melissan (I believe), the Ravager and Demogorgon come to mind.



Spell Shield is also a necessity if you want to counter Spellstrike (not frequently cast, admittedly, but can be devastating to a solo character) and Beholder anti-magic rays.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Joshh Avatar wrote...

Hello! I recently revisited this fantastic game, and noted the lack of *decent* spell choice lists for Bg2 Sorcerers
online. I have soloed  SOA & TOB on the highest difficulty twice, and am currently playing through the game in LAN mode with a good friend; Dual sorcerers, with multiple difficulty increasing mods activated, including tactics, SCS2, and others of my own making.

Here is my list, optimized for playing solo on insane, but these picks are in my opinion the best, and
will always be useful on any sorcerer in bg2:



-Joshh

Are you playing with ascension too? If you're playing with tactics....here's what changes I'd make if I were playing a solo sorc

Level 8: I would change protection from energy to simulacrum. I've heard that protection from energy protects you in slayer form. But to each his own I suppose. With simulacrum you can do alot of things with it. Iron golem, or mindflayer...I'd never leave home without it.

Level 9: I wouldn't take spellstrike or timestop. I would change it for black blade of disaster and shapechange. I think that a solo sorc does need some melee strength, and I would have loved this when last I soloed a sorceror. Anyways that's my opinion. You can always timestop from a scroll ,there should be around five time stop scrolls in the game, you can either simmy/project image them off, or just use them in the major fights.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 24 août 2010 - 07:09 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Without Time Stop, there is little point to BBoD for a sorc, is there? Their THAC0 sucks, but more importantly, they have only one base APR. Energy Blades (or MMM) should prove more useful.

Of course you can avoid fighting beholders (they're all optional), but if you are planning on taking some on, I suggest picking Spell Shield.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Without Time Stop, there is little point to BBoD for a sorc, is there? Their THAC0 sucks, but more importantly, they have only one base APR. Energy Blades (or MMM) should prove more useful.

I suppose you're right. I guess I'm only thinking about certain fights which I would use BBoD and of course, the time stop scrolls rather then the entirety of the game. It is of course, how I would redo my own solo game.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 24 août 2010 - 09:39 .

[Joshh Avatar]

Against beholders I tend to feed them skeletons one at a time to negate their death spells/ spell spam, and then give them some chain contingencied Abi-Dalzim love.
At earlier levels, as my friend and I discovered during the unseeing eye quest, they were difficult to kill.

Spell Shield is good, but there are so many key choices at level 5.. and AGAIN. Spellimmunity abjuration makes you immune to spellstrike. Which is wonderful. As for that immunity to lower resistance, wow, that explains alot Hm. Pierce magic instead of prot from magical energy then, with belt of inertial barrier for skulltrap.

I concur that Bbod is worthless next to energy disks; And what is the huge fuss over shapechange? I have playtested it and it is truly yet to impress me.

Simlacrum is vastly inferior to project image*.
Same job, but mirror image is at *your* level; and should you opt for wizard eye instead of teleport field,
the lack of sight is not a problem. Also spell immunity: divination will negate true sight cancelling it.

I have not yet had cause to do this sort of thing, but I am keeping my book open, as soloing tactics has at times proved difficult, and I have never fought improved melissan/Irenicus or even bodhi before

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 24 août 2010 - 10:31 .

[polytope]

Joshh Avatar wrote...

Spell immunity negates the need for
spell shield, as spell immunity - abjuration will negate all the
removal spells such as pierce magic.

Not in the unmodded game, as spell thrust, pierce magic spells etc. are
flagged as "magical attack" they go straight through spell protections.
I believe Improved Anvil changes this but SCS does not.

pierce magic is outdone by both spellstrike and lower resistance, lower
resistance removes a great deal extra, and spellstrike removes *all*
protections, not just one.
Why do two jobs badly instead of one well?

Pierce magic does two jobs, it strips protections and lowers resistance,
useful against any spellcaster with magic resistance and ofc there are
many of these in the late game.

Ruby ray being AOE
would indeed be excellent, but it still absolutely would not negate
FoD, fantastic spell, especially after malison. Even then, its aoe
single buff removal vs two spell strikes to remove all the protections
on *both* enemy mages- you rarely face more than two at once.

And shapechange for spellstrike is just funny

There are not many spell protections a sorcerer really needs to remove. Exceptions:

*Spell Immunity:Abjuration/Divination, Spell Thrust does this and allows Remove Magic/True Sight to work on of the enemy mage
*Globe of Invulnerability (only if you need to use low level spells to damage them) Pierce Magic works fine for this
*Spell Trap - only if the enemy mage is a high enough level that you need to use breach instead of remove magic, in which case ruby ray is effective.

Altogether,
I don't see the need for Spellstrike. It's easy to dismiss Shapechange
as a gimmick, but it has many uses for a solo sorcerer with no melee
backup... And melee damage is often just more efficient than spells,
particularly in the late game when dealing with magic resistant/fire
resistant mobs.

Lastly, what spells are effective for a sorcerer really depends on who is playing the sorcerer. Each player has their own approach to the game, often their own mod setup. Whatever works for you, really.

Modifié par polytope, 24 août 2010 - 09:51 .

[Joshh Avatar]

Imo, Dark Planetar/5x Skeletons does all the melee I need,

I do not consider spellstrike negligible... To remove *all* their defences instantaneously
Especially high level, modded liches is quite important-
I am starting to agree with getting pierce magic more and more however.

Lastly, I do not play with modded spells, I like the original, unmodded spellset, and when I installed Scs2 I made sure their edits were not implemented. I might give shapechange a go however- which transformations do you(everyone) recommend, and how do they affect Thaco?

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 24 août 2010 - 10:02 .

[polytope]

I can't remember the exact stats for shapechanged forms. I know that the iron golem is 100% immune to elemental damage (undispellable immunity, at that) and innately immune to +2 weapons and less, plus 100% magic resistance and does a lot of damage, especially if improved hasted.



The mind flayer is also worth a look, you get the option for psionic blast whenever you shapeshift into a mind flayer, so it can be used indefinitely so long as the shapechange buff lasts. Psionic blast also bypasses magic resistance.



I'm not saying Shapechange is useful for every fight, but it's certainly not a waste of a 9th level slot.

[Joshh Avatar]

Hmm. I might playtest it further this game in place of time stop, my friend and I do not pause the game or use timestop when lanning together, instead relying on hotkeys ^^.

I am a big fan of the spell Khelben's warding whip, but it does not negate the level 9 spelltrap nor is it worth the key level 7 slot. Hmm.

Protection from energy is also the all-round spell-defense, with fireshield red it also makes fire heal you, Wouldnt trade that out as 80% of the non-physical damage dealt to you during the game is fire.

On a final note, my argument for spellstrike over ruby ray of reversal is that there are better picks for level 7
in place of it than there are for spellstrike at level 9.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 24 août 2010 - 10:09 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Joshh Avatar wrote...


I concur that Bbod is worthless next to energy disks; And what is the huge fuss over shapechange? I have playtested it and it is truly yet to impress me.

Simlacrum is vastly inferior to mirror image.
Same job, but mirror image is at *your* level; and should you opt for wizard eye instead of teleport field,
the lack of sight is not a problem. Also spell immunity: divination will negate true sight cancelling it.

I have not yet had cause to do this sort of thing, but I am keeping my book open, as soloing tactics has at times proved difficult, and I have never fought improved melissan/Irenicus or even bodhi before

Well I can understand your thinking. If you can somehow improve thaco(like through spell trigger and tensers) it could work possibly, or not. It's only a suggestion.

By mirror image, I'm guessing your thinking project image. Project image has it's uses, but I've noticed that alot of high level enemies will either hit you, or dispel your project image before you can erect spell immunity(abjuration or divinity). At least that has been my experience in Ascension. Besides, I would rather have simulacrum and use a shapechange scroll, or timestop scroll into black blade. Again, just how I would do things. In any event it may not work, but I tend to dislike messy all out spell casting if I can avoid it. In fact I'd consider taking TS over wish, as even though I admire the infinite spells it can deliver, simmies and project images can wish from a scroll. Again all a preference.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 24 août 2010 - 10:15 .

[Joshh Avatar]

Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna and Amulet of power + Intimate knowledge of hotkeys, saving precious seconds clicking through menus = extremely fast emptying of spell batteries into enemy faces.

Messy all-out spellcasting without the irritation of menu delay/constant pausing.

Simalcrum is a great pick and all, but its not as necessary as the others I have listed-
I dont think the trade-out would be worth any of them.

Thank you,  by the way, to all who have posted so far,
This is why I created this thread, I am very much interested in the best sorcerer spell picks, and it is nice
to discuss them with my peers.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 24 août 2010 - 10:35 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Remember that if you're going with 2 sorcs, you don't need both the same spells. Teleport field for one, Spirit Armor for the other, and so on.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Joshh Avatar wrote...

Improved Alacrity + Robe of Vecna and Amulet of power + Intimate knowledge of hotkeys, saving precious seconds clicking through menus = extremely fast emptying of spell batteries into enemy faces.

Messy all-out spellcasting without the irritation of menu delay/constant pausing.

Simalcrum is a great pick and all, but its not as necessary as the others I have listed-
I dont think the trade-out would be worth any of them.

I prefer just using auto-pause, you don't lose anytime using that. And you should play however you wish to, I can agree with that.

[Joshh Avatar]

Very true, But I like to have the best solo spells possible so that I can hold my own should my buddy get held etc. We do like our malison/breach combo's, Ie I cast malison and he uses chaos, and so on.

He has chaos and I have sunfire



I still regret not having chaos, fantastic spell, I am considering confusion instead of teleport field upon reaching level 23 to compensate, but I do also love teleport field..

And I hate using AC spells on a sorcerer, there is no point, you will get hit anyway in ToB every time.

[Joshh Avatar]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...
 I prefer just using auto-pause, you don't lose anytime using that. And you should play however you wish to, I can agree with that.

Ouch, Autopause would really break up the action and slow the game down for me, much less interesting
than improved alacrity + total annihilation. =D But each to his own.
Try my way, tis fun

[AnonymousHero]

Joshh Avatar wrote...
Spell Shield is good, but there are so many key choices at level 5.. and AGAIN. Spellimmunity abjuration makes you immune to spellstrike.

SI:A does not protect against Spellstrike -- at least not unmodded. AFAIK the only protection against Spelltrike is Spell Shield; well I suppose Spell Trap might work too, but...

[AnonymousHero]

Joshh Avatar wrote...
Ouch, Autopause would really break up the action and slow the game down for me, much less interesting
than improved alacrity + total annihilation. =D But each to his own.
Try my way, tis fun

Um, Auto-pause + Imp. Alacrity is MORE total annihilation than without Auto-pause.

[Joshh Avatar]

Erm, yes, but cast pause cast pause cast pause cast is alot less impressive/fun than cast cast cast, autopause breaks up the action like no tomorrow- I'll use pause in tough situations, but auto? no thanks.

[Sparky The Barbarian]

I was about to say, "Where is the Charm Spell?" but I forgot about the Ring Of Human Influence.

[Joshh Avatar]

Charm is pretty unnecessary- there are much better pick, many monsters are immune to it, and if you need the extra help, you could always just summon up a dark planatar instead.

P.S I was reminded (through actual use) just how pathetic chain lightning is, and am now going to replace it on my list with pierce magic, which is much more deserving of a spot.

Thanks to Polytope for feedback on this variation.
The question is though, which I have yet to playtest, as I am playing through only at the pace that Im playing through,
is whether lower resistance can be swapped out because of pierce magic. Lower Resistance takes away more resistance, but level 5 has lots of useful tricks, whereas 6 does not.

I know spellshield is popular, but Ive always preferred to crush the enemy mage before my spell defenses become an issue, and that being the case, its not worth the spell slot solely for beholders imo.
Chaos, though. -4 saving throw mass disable. With malison, its simply an enemy force nullifier.

Any more suggestions for swaps? No point arguing the merits of spells that there are no room for;
Theyve got to be better than the spell they are replacing really.

We're looking at you when we say that, simalcrum.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 25 août 2010 - 04:42 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

The advantage of simulacrum over PI would be that you can cast twice as many spells at once, but since you don't use autopause, that would probably not be the case, at least not once you've got Improved Alacrity.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

The advantage of simulacrum over PI would be that you can cast twice as many spells at once, but since you don't use autopause, that would probably not be the case, at least not once you've got Improved Alacrity.

He'll find out later. He's playing with tactics and all that. I would never leave home without simulacrum aka one of the most powerful spells in the game. He can always horde simmy scrolls.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 25 août 2010 - 02:05 .