162 réponses à ce sujet

[jaxsbudgie]

Maybe try the mod Spell Revisions? Makes a lot of useless spell useful, and tweaks overpowered spells.

[silenceall]

Spirit Armor isn't just for AC. It's other, and possibly more important, advantage is the bonus to saving throws.

[Slyx]

silenceall wrote...

Spirit Armor isn't just for AC. It's other, and possibly more important, advantage is the bonus to saving throws.

Good point.  An extra +3 saves vs spells I believe.  I found if I'm soloing, my saves (especially as a mage-type as they get the highest save vs spells anyway) go up quickly enough on their own that I don't need the extra +3.  Good for a group/party sorc though, perhaps.

[Joshh Avatar]

So far, no problems actually. The upgraded sahaugin are ludicrous though.

Two things- I happen to love simalcrum, *but* what would I trade it for...

If you want to go all *multiple casts at a time*y I suggest chain contingency: project image on sight.

3 of you, at full level. Simalcrum is comparatively a little girl with pigtails.

Shapechange utterly failed to impress me again too..

On a kensai mage it would be well worth the pick, but a sorc's thaco is hopeless.

[Joshh Avatar]

jaxsbudgie wrote...

Maybe try the mod Spell Revisions? Makes a lot of useless spell useful, and tweaks overpowered spells.

And make wizards worth a damn? Goodness no.
I dislike mods that edit the spells and upset the current balance,
This thread is about the optimal spell choices for the unmodded game's sorc.

Although on a side note, I would love some new level 9 spells.. whats there is pretty pathetic.
It wouldnt be if I used imprisonment, which I loved in my first playthrough, but It is too imbalanced.
Spelltrap would also be a nice pick, but staff of the magi (which is ridiculous) negates it.

Hmm, looking through them now, energy drain -a pity it wont work on enemies you might actually need it for .Hypothetical revenge scenario-  Irenicus: You are now level 8. To spite you, I am going to let you live, and then release you back into your own chateau, killing goblins and duergar to level up, eventually coming to me at spellhold for revenge. Then I will tell Imoen to kill you, and she won't, allowing you to chase me through the underdark & eventually face me in hell and win. But thats okay. It was only a mirror image. Im actually in ToB. 

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 26 août 2010 - 10:10 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Yeah, there is a reason why the G3 Fixpack puts a stop to the Chain Contingency: PI PI PI...

[Joshh Avatar]

I dont use Project image x 3 for that very reason, it's moronically powerful.
I was just ripping on simalcrum.

Simalcrum is nice and all... but what does it have on
Abidalzims,
Power word blind,
Protection from energy
and spell trigger?

Pierce magic x 3, The ability to survive bg2's enemy armada of hostile damage spells and environments(such as watchers keep), no save disable, and powerful magical nuke?

It's a pity its not a level 9 spell, its *far* superior to shapechange as a 4th pick.
Actually considering Power word:Kill at the moment in place of timestop, which I dont use during Lan-
Its been handy once or twice for when an enemy mage is almost dead and you just want to instantly nail him..

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 26 août 2010 - 11:11 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Joshh Avatar wrote...
Simalcrum is nice and all... but what does it have on
Abidalzims,
Power word blind,
Protection from energy
and spell trigger?

As I said, a simmy is a legitimate way of doubling your spell output. It's not really required though. I just played through BG2 (and ToB) with a single sorcerer and usually entirely unbuffed because the enemies died before they could capitalize on that. (of course, I used autopause, so I probably got 5 times as many spells out as your sorc will)

[Joshh Avatar]

5x as many spells as my sorc will? Utter nonsense. You are underestimating my hotkeys-
W- Magic Missile, E Chaos R skull trap T spell turning Y power word blind, U Animate Dead,
I improved invisibility O true sight P ruby ray A Alacrity S stoneskin D dragons breath, F Finger of Death, G sunfire,
H haste. K power word kill, L lower resist, X flame arrow, C mirror image, V protection from magical weapons, B breach,

I dont need to use autopause because I have my spells at my fingertips.
Without it, the action is alot more flowing, not start and stop turn based crap
Precise clicking and the spell you need when you need it..

If I wanted to use simalcrum, it would be a simple matter of clicking
on the secondary mage and using the same keys while I wait for my
main's 6second downtime period to be over etc.
I just dont think its as good as pro-energy or spell trigger.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 26 août 2010 - 11:55 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Joshh Avatar wrote...



If I wanted to use simalcrum, it would be a simple matter of clicking
on the secondary mage and using the same keys while I wait for my
main's 6second downtime period to be over etc.
I just dont think its as good as pro-energy or spell trigger.

you believe protection from energy>simulacrum?

[Joshh Avatar]

Very Tough call, but yes; Protection from energy keeps you alive big time against all non-physical damage;
The dragon's lightning breath, and *then* its Abi-Dalzims.. after it has spellstruck you.

Convince me, go on
I am now firmly of the opinion that Ruby ray > spellstrike and pierce > chain lightning,
Give me an alternative to protection from energy really... 80% resistance to everything?
The alternative trade is power word blind... but that spell has excellent utilities as well.

Random just-tested note: It's a pity you cant activate your shapechange forms when tensered
But ah, I suppose a Greater Wolfwere with -10 thaco, stoneskin and spell turning is a little silly.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 26 août 2010 - 03:18 .

[bloodanddarknessfillmysoul]

You can with a little cheese, use potion/scroll swap trick.

[Slyx]

Joshh Avatar wrote...
Random just-tested note: It's a pity you cant activate your shapechange forms when tensered
But ah, I suppose a Greater Wolfwere with -10 thaco, stoneskin and spell turning is a little silly.

Couldn't you shapechange into a what you want, then use Tenser's in a contingency (maybe to on Hit)?  You wouldn't be able to switch to any other shapeshift forms, but you'd have tenser's on top of a single shapeshift form.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Joshh Avatar wrote...

5x as many spells as my sorc will? Utter nonsense. You are underestimating my hotkeys-
W- Magic Missile, E Chaos R skull trap T spell turning Y power word blind, U Animate Dead,
I improved invisibility O true sight P ruby ray A Alacrity S stoneskin D dragons breath, F Finger of Death, G sunfire,
H haste. K power word kill, L lower resist, X flame arrow, C mirror image, V protection from magical weapons, B breach,

Oh? Have you ever killed an entire room of enemies, before they had a chance to react to you becoming visible, using only single-target spells? (I think I used up 4 or more spells on  each one, since I was planning to rest afterwards anyway)
By the way, Protection from Energy only gives you 75%, not 80%.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 26 août 2010 - 05:38 .

[Seagloom]

I'm curious: why do you prefer fallen planetar over planetar, Joshh? Is there a difference between the two other than alignment? I have taken fallen planetar more often because of the concept, but it got me wondering if there was more to it.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Joshh Avatar wrote...

Very Tough call, but yes; Protection from energy keeps you alive big time against all non-physical damage;
The dragon's lightning breath, and *then* its Abi-Dalzims.. after it has spellstruck you.

Convince me, go on
I am now firmly of the opinion that Ruby ray > spellstrike and pierce > chain lightning,
Give me an alternative to protection from energy really... 80% resistance to everything?
The alternative trade is power word blind... but that spell has excellent utilities as well.

Random just-tested note: It's a pity you cant activate your shapechange forms when tensered
But ah, I suppose a Greater Wolfwere with -10 thaco, stoneskin and spell turning is a little silly.

What enemy are you speaking of that has lightning breath, horrid welting and spellstrike?

Horrid weltings should never be a problem for you, what with mirror image and belt of inertial barrier. And the six potions of magic blocking and another six magic protection. And to top that off, cloak of mirroring if you're really desperate. I believe there is a cloak of reflection that deflects all lightning damage, boots of grounding in the Asylum maze and of course the green lightning pro scrolls/potions of insulation. Plus the fact that you can just collect protection from magical energy scrolls anyways.

Losing the ability to get another set of 'project images' at a higher level will decrease your spellcasting power. Wasn't that the purpose of your 'total annihilation' clause?

As an aside: You use your tensers through spell trigger(the highest one I believe) after you have shapechanged, like I mentoned earlier in this thread.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 26 août 2010 - 07:16 .

[Joshh Avatar]

bloodanddarknessfillmysoul wrote...

You can with a little cheese, use potion/scroll swap trick.

If I was into cheese I wouldve recommended imprisonment as a spellchoice.


Spell trigger? I see. Were I to put improved haste, stoneskin and tensers in spell trigger after using shapechange, I could indeed become a viable force in melee combat. Interesting. I shall playtest this^^

I was using Abazigal as my example ;p
I have ah, personally ugraded him, and my boosts stack with tactics.
Also, I greatly dislike using potions and scrolls.

It *is* possible to trick yourself out in gear that will do the job, but only at the cost of other benefits,
or limited potions/scrolls, and as for using simalcrum cheese to duplicate items, No thanks.
Protection from energy keeps you alive.
I suppose simalcrum could be taken instead of power word blind though.
Blind, while excellent, is not as key as protection from energy, and another you is better still than a no save stun.

@ Taifun- Yes I have and do, I am very quick and precise with the mouse, hitting multiple *hasted*
enemy targets consecutively is little problem for me, I am used to games where precise, difficult clicking is involved.

@ Seagloom, As Im sure you are aware, Dark Planatar is visually just far more badass than Planatar is.
The only actual difference between them is in that Planatar has holy word and DP has unholy word,
holy word being the better spell as it hits evil characters only, DP hitting good only, and you mostly fight evil characters.

But Dark Planatar, Aesthetically and conceptually, is simply much more awesome.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 27 août 2010 - 01:29 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Alright, if you can, as you say, cast ~20 spells in less than a second on several different targets then I'm not gonna argue with you - there's no point for one such as you to use Simulacrum.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 27 août 2010 - 04:56 .

[Joshh Avatar]

4-5 targets a second, 20 is yes, nice, but not worth the irritation of stopped combat and constant pausing 24/7.
But this thread is about the best spell choices, not about the fact that I play bg2 so hardcore .
Seriously though, autopause sucks..

So.
Power word blind / Protection from energy < Simulacrum ?

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 27 août 2010 - 12:01 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

But the best spells are highly dependent on how you play.
No matter how useful mordies are, if you are one of the people that prefers nuking the enemy directly to summoning stuff then they will not find much application.
And since you play without pause, in your case the simmy is only useful as an additional spell book in case you've emptied your first one - but it'd be stupid to cast something like that at the beginning of a major fight (losing an ADHW that way) and useless to cast it when you need it.

In other words, in your case Simulacrum is not a good spell.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 27 août 2010 - 01:28 .

[Althernai]

I have not read the list in detail, but one obvious suggestion: at level 6, drop Disintegrate and get Improved Haste instead. Disintegrate is a fairly pointless spell -- it's redundant with Finger of Death and can destroy loot. Improved Haste is among the most powerful buffs in the game: IIRC, the speed bonus stacks with the Boots of Speed and the number of attacks is doubled. If you had a party, this would effectively give your dual-wielding comrades a permanent Greater Whirlwind (combine with Critical Strike for best effect), but even when soloing it gives your Planetars 6 attacks per round and 10 Melf's Minute Meteors per round for yourself.

[Joshh Avatar]

Very valid point. I had never even considered buffing Dark Planatar with improved haste, he is a killing machine as it is. But that definitely makes sense.My thanks, I will now update my increasingly sound list.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 28 août 2010 - 01:53 .

[Alesia_BH]

I think you've presented a fine list Joshh Avatar along with some excellent commentary. My preferred spell list differs on some points due to my emphasis on defense, casting speed and spellbook management, however, I'm sure that yours would be eminently playable.

A few comments...

1. Those who are considering building a spellbook based on recommendations in this thread should bear in mind that Spell Immunity: Abjuration does NOT stop targeted spell protection removers in most installs. It will in Improved Anvil but not in the majority of other builds.

2. I'd be reluctant to give up Glitterdust at Level 2. Due to the dearth of Blindness immunity in the game and -the fact that it fits into Minor Sequencers- it is a useful disabling spell throughout the adventure. Likewise, I find Blindness appealing at level 1 due to the lack of immunity and the duration.

3. I'd be reluctant to give up Melf's Minute Meteors. Skipping Melf's would cause you to miss out on a lot of attack opportunities early in the game (via the cast and attack method). Naturally, Energy Baldes are more powerful but you don't get them until late and -importantly- the opportunity cost is much higher.

4. I'd be reluctant to give up any of the Sequencers, Triggers, or Contingencies since I place such a high value on casting speed, flexibility, and spellbook management.

5. I'd be reluctant to give up Spell Shield. It can make your spell defenses noticeably more robust- especially when facing enemies who Spellstrike or use SI:D+II foiling Breaching special abilities. It also offers more staying power verse Beholders than the alternatives.

6. I don't typically select Shapechange. However, it does have a high powerceiling. As mentioned, it isn't difficult to get Tensers+Buffs running with Shapechange if you use Triggers and Contingencies. You can also get magically created weapons into your paws via scroll or contingeny. Plus -if you don't mind the smell of cheese-  you can dispell the shapechange weapons and use regular weapons with the boosted APR (8 in Mind Flayer form). It's also worth noting that Shapechanged Projected Images can make physical attacks and that PI/Simmies spawn with the Shapechange Special Abilities if your sorcerer has cast it before summoning the illusions. 

Have fun casting everyone!


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 05 septembre 2010 - 04:41 .

[saros_shadow_follower]

1st level spell - I wouldn't miss Shield. Still, in an unmodded or slightly modded game, some variations in the spell list are acceptable. Blindness is extremely overpowered in a non-Anvil install. I would however not pick Resist fear as 2nd level spell, since it only occupies a slot. At lower levels, your sorcerer should not have much trouble with panic effects (since they're not that common) and at lvl 18, you get Wish and as many potions of Clarity as you'll ever need. For a party sorcerer, the spell is also useless since there will be always someone else to cast it. Blur, however, I value greatly, and it should be in every sorc's spellbook.



As for Shapechange - haven't played for a long time with clones (PI or Simulacrum), but the Shapechange abilities have several devastating combinations with certain other high-level spells. First, of course, is the Timestop option. TS has a long casting time, meaning that by the end of finishing the spell, the sorcerer's aura is cleansed and he (she) can almost immediately transform into the desired form (usually, mindflayer or iron golem), and crush his opponents. Improved Haste works in the new form, so I consider it a very important pick for sorcerers, while spells like True Sight can be skipped (an adept sorcerer should be able to deal with all enemies without true sight). Equipping off-hand weapons (don't know if this is considered cheesy) can be done, thus giving the character two extra attacks. The best off-hand weapon IMO for a shapeshifted sorcerer is the Staff Mace, but some powerful enemies may be immune to +2 weapons, so an alternative is the dagger of the stars +5 or Boneblade +4. Of course, using an off-hand weapon has its penalties (-4 THAC0 main-hand, -8 THAC0 off-hand), but all attacks made upon a frozen in time enemy hit automatically.



The second combination of Shapechange is with Improved Alacrity, turning a gazillion times into Mindflayer and sending gazillion Psionic blasts upon your enemies. With Auto-pause: Spell cast active, of course. Basically, you're showering the enemy with thremendous amount of Psionic blasts, which are party-friendly, ignore magic resistance, and are subject to only save vs spells check (and of course, if the enemy is immune to Stun, those won't work either). The duration of the stun effect lasts only for 1 turn though, but if all around your sorc are stunned - well clubber them with the Iron golem. All attacks made upon a stunned or otherwise incapacitated enemy hit automatically.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Elusive Alesia. When I read a post of yours I want to greet you, but something tells me that you're not here to stay.

Did you forget your keys here, or were you just passing through?
Thought you about seeing some old faces again and were then scared of the new?

(I should stop now. Not being a good poet even at the best of times 3AM is not the time for me to start an attempt...)