162 réponses à ce sujet

[Alesia_BH]

@ Saros

It's good to see you again.

saros_shadow_follower wrote...

1st level spell - I wouldn't miss Shield. Still, in an unmodded or slightly modded game, some variations in the spell list are acceptable.

Agreed. I'm a Shield backer as well- especially in Trilogy games.

Blur, however, I value greatly, and it should be in every sorc's spellbook.

Agreed: more-or-less. I never feel comfortable telling people what they should put in their spellbooks, but I personally wouldn't skip it.

Blindness is extremely overpowered in a non-Anvil install.

Agreed. Blindness is a highly underrated spell. Given the rarity of immunity and duration, its comprable to the level 6-7 save-or-else spells -often better- all at a price which makes it far more appealing.

As for Shapechange - haven't played for a long time with clones (PI or Simulacrum), but the Shapechange abilities have several devastating combinations with certain other high-level spells.

Once again, agreed.


@ Humanoid Taifun

Thank for the welcome: I appreciate it.

And you know what: I may stick around this time. I've been getting the itch to play BG again. It's been almost 2 years since I've played now and it feels like time to give it another whirl. If so, I'll definitely be around.

Cheers,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 06 septembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Alesia_BH wrote...



And you know what: I may stick around this time. I've been getting the itch to play BG again. It's been almost 2 years since I've played now and it feels like time to give it another whirl. If so, I'll definitely be around.

Cheers,

A.

wb alesia_bh!

[Serg BlackStrider]

It is good to see you back again, Alesia_BH!

[Alesia_BH]

I think we are in danger of hijacking Joshh Avatar's Spell Pick thread now but thanks: I appreciate the warm welcome.

At this point, it's just a matter of getting a modded BG install up and running in Ubuntu, dreaming up a character, and getting started. I'll post in an appropriate thread once I do.

If anyone would like to PM character/challenge suggestions they should feel free.


In this thread, I'd encourage us to get back to spell picks and return the focus to Joshh Avatar.

Cheers,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 06 septembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[Demivrgvs]

Joshh Avatar wrote...

jaxsbudgie wrote...

Maybe try the mod Spell Revisions? Makes a lot of useless spell useful, and tweaks overpowered spells.

And make wizards worth a damn? Goodness no.
I dislike mods that edit the spells and upset the current balance,
This thread is about the optimal spell choices for the unmodded game's sorc.

Feel free to dislike such mods, but just so you know Spell Revisions surely doesn't "make wizards worth a damn". Actually they end up being much more versatile, and quite more powerful too because of that.

[lroumen]

Why would you pick identify as a level 1 spell? There are plenty of scrolls and the items that you cannot use as a soloist you should not identify outside of shops anyway. That saves up a slot for blindness or shield. I am also not a big fan of burning hands. Sure, you get rid of trolls that way, but you might just as well use darts of wounding, asps nests, poisoned throwing daggers or firetooth for that.

If I am not taking blindness at level 1, then I go for glitterdust at level 2 and skip aganazzar's scorcher or resist fear (both not that useful in my opinion).

[Demivrgvs]

I'll try to comment on your list, though looking again at vanilla's spells make me a little sad because tons of spells were really useless making the list to chose from way smaller.

Level 1
Magic Missile
Identify --> Glasses of Identification, scrolls and stores make it useful but surely not a must, switch with Shield
Spook                        
Burning Hands --> Blindness is way more useful/powerful imo, especially later on
Protection From Evil

Notes: not many alternatives, as most lvl 1 spells are utterly pathetic in vanilla.

Level 2
Agannazar's Scorcher --> Glitterdust all the way! Mass Blindeness + Detect Invisibility is invaluable
Melf's Acid Arrow
Knock --> only if soloing, else Web or Blur are a lot more useful
Mirror Image --> best lvl 2 spell by far, vanilla's anti-AoE bug makes it kinda cheesy
Resist Fear --> not bad, thought I consider Web or Blur slightly better choices

Notes: we have a couple of choices here, but you can't go wrong as long as you go with the above mentioned.

Level 3
Dispell Magic --> either this or Remove Magic, your choice
Flame Arrow
Melf's Minute Meteors
Skull Trap --> way overpowered in vanilla, thus a must have
Haste

Notes: if you're playing  with SCS Spell Thrust is outstandingly useful as it's THE anti-Spell Immunity magic attack. I'd switch either Haste or Flame Arrow with it, probably the latter if you go for Animate Dead later on

Level 4
Fire Shield Red --> cool but not a must have, Minor Sequencer is a must instead, especially for Sorcerers
Greater Malison
Improved Invisibility
Stoneskin
Teleport Field  Or Confusion --> Emotion beats both, by far the most powerful disabling spell for this slot

Notes: If you know how to properly use it Minor Globe of Invulnerability is a great spell too.

Level 5
Animate Dead --> Skeleton Warriors were by far the best vanilla summon together with Mordy
Breach --> you simply can't go without this
Lower Resistance
Spell Immunity
Sunfire or Chaos --> Chaos is without a doubt better, Sunfire (THE anti-drow spell) is great only if you go solo

Notes: vanilla's Spell Shield is so bugged I can't even bear it, but it's THE anti-beholder spell because most of the times they don't seem to be able to dispel it (that's one of the bugs) while Spell Turning is very quickly erased by their rays (though it's indeed a cool and more fun alternative). If you don't like summons switch Animate Ded with Sunfire, but the former probably makes your life way easier more often (against beholders and mind flayers they are almost cheesy).

Level 6
Pierce Magic
Contingency
True Sight
Protection From Magical Weapons
Improved Haste --> only for summons

Notes: finally some tough choices even in a vanilla game. Contingency, True Sight and PfMW are all must have spells (though TS may not be so depending on your party). Both Pierce Magic and Improved Haste are great, but so are Death Spell, Mislead and Globe of Invulnerability...one of these at player's choice is fine. The only other alternative is Chain Lightining (3x CL in a sequencer is a killer, and very few opponents are resistant to electricity). Unless you're soloing you may not even have to chose the 5th spell.

Level 7
Finger Of Death
Mordrenkainen's Sword
Ruby Ray Of Reversal
Project Image --> even if you don't exploit it's still uber-powerful
Spell Turning

Notes: with Mordy, RRoR and PI you can't go wrong. RRoR is actually a must in a SCS game, while PI may be a little fragile with the enhanced AI unless you simply exploit it. Finger of Death and Spell Turning are good spells, but Spell Sequencer is a must (e.g. 3x Skull Trap/Flame Arrow, or Malison+Emotion+somethign else), they are not.

Level 8
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting --> best damage dealing spell ever
Power Word Blind
Protection From Energy
Spell Trigger --> obviously a must

Notes: Spell Trigger and Horrid Wilting are the most useful/powerful spells here by far, together with Simulacrum (can't be destroyed by True Seeing). PW Blind is a really good choice for the 4th slot, so is ProEnergy.

Level 9
Chain Contingency
Wish
Time Stop
Shapechange

Notes: Time Stop and Chain Contingency should always be your first two picks here. Spellstrike should be the third in a SCS game, but you can skip it in a vanilla game. Either Wish, Shapechange or Spell Trap for the last slot.

Just my 2 cents. I hope to be helpful.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 07 septembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Alesia_BH]

Our lists are very similiar Demivrgs. I'll only comment on some of the differences.

Demivrgvs wrote...

Teleport Field or Confusion--> Emotion beats both, by far the most powerful disabling spell for this slot

I respect this recommendation. However, this is a choice that hinges on your battle plan. If you intend to solo, equip missle weapon avoidance items, and run SI:D + SI:A +II, then Teleport Field fits perfectly. Likewise, if you intend to stack a party with casters and or range fighters, Teleport Field makes sense.

Notes: If you know how to properly use it Minor Globe of Invulnerability is a great spell too.

Agreed. Of course, it's worth remembering that you can get a full party version (amongst other things) via Limited Wish and that Level 7 is powerful, but not especially deep.

Sunfire or Chaos --> Chaos is without a doubt better, Sunfire (THE anti-drow spell) is great only if you go solo

Personally, I appreciate being able to do AOE damage without a Magic Resistance check. And it isn't that difficult to protect your party from fire damage.

Notes: Vanilla's Spell Shield is so bugged I can't even bear it

Understood. I personally haven't had much trouble with the Spell Shield bug in my installs though- assuming you don't consider the Anti-Magic Ray response a bug.

it's THE anti-beholder spell because most of the times they don't seem to be able to dispel it (that's one of the bugs) while Spell Turning is very quickly erased by their rays (though it's indeed a cool and more fun alternative)

Agreed.

Time Stop and Chain Contingency should always be your first two picks here.

I agree with you on Chain Contingency. However, if you are using Vecna+AoP and autopause, casting Time Stop isn't always a wise move. An Improved Alacrity with an extra, say, Dragon's Breath is often better than an Improved Alacrity + Time Stop. Plus, 2 Improved Alacrities can be better than one Improved Alacrity + Time Stop.


We're pretty much on the same page with respect to everything else.


Cheers,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 07 septembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Demivrgvs]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Demivrgvs wrote...

Teleport Field or Confusion--> Emotion beats both, by far the most powerful disabling spell for this slot

I respect this recommendation. However, this is a choice that hinges on your battle plan. If you intend to solo, equip missle weapon avoidance items, and run SI:D + SI:A +II, then Teleport Field fits perfectly. Likewise, if you intend to stack a party with casters and or range fighters, Teleport Field makes sense.

Don't get me wrong, Teleport Field is commonly understimated and it's indeed a powerful tool if used in certain circumstances, but I think Emotion comes handy in more situations, and thus ends up being used more often. That being said, both spells are fine choices.

Sunfire or Chaos --> Chaos is without a doubt better, Sunfire (THE anti-drow spell) is great only if you go solo

Personally, I appreciate being able to do AOE damage without a Magic Resistance check. And it isn't that difficult to protect your party from fire damage.

Almost as above. Sunfire is indeed a powerful spell, but I'd suggest Chaos over it because of its "usability". I know you can micromanage your party to avoid damage, but a 30 feet radius was quite a large AoE (I slightly reduced it for SR), thus you can probably admit it somewhat cripple the amount of times you can effectively use it in a party based game. Furthermore, fire resistance is by far the most common resistance (and SCS spellcasters tend to use Protection from "x element" spells quite often), whereas immunity to confusion is less common (and arcane spellcasters don't have Chaotic Commands).

I'd say this is one of the few real choices one has to make (like Teleport Field or Emotion was), and it all comes down to a "tetris-like" game. For example one could take Pierce Magic at 6th lvl, decide to ditch Lower Resistance considering it almost redundant , and take Sunfire; another one may instead prefer Sunfire over Animate Dead because he/she thinks Mordy can do everything a Skeleton Warrior can do and more (which is true).

I agree with you on Chain Contingency. However, if you are using Vecna+AoP and autopause, casting Time Stop isn't always a wise move. An Improved Alacrity with an extra, say, Dragon's Breath is often better than an Improved Alacrity + Time Stop. Plus, 2 Improved Alacrities can be better than one Improved Alacrity + Time Stop.

You have a point, my "miscalculation" is mainly based on the fact I forgot vanilla's Robe of Cheese because I always played with a nerfed Robe (-2 casting speed instead of -4). Wrong assumption, because not all players dislike overpowered items and install Item Revisions. My bad.

Anyway, even counting Vecna's overpowerness, TS would probably still be my second choice (perhaps third under SCS, as you need Spellstrike much more often there and it has an AoE just like within Spell Revisions). TS still has some advantages of its own compared to IA:
* 1 round of full immunity (taking some time/space can be quite useful in some situations)
* always hit under TS routine (e.g. MMM or Energy Blade under TS are ridiculously powerful, and TS+Shapechange can allow players to do some really dirty exploit)
And doesn't casting Improved Alacrity two times in a row while using vanilla's Robe of Cheese mean you have depleted half your spellbook? I don't think it's so common to need such a high amount of spells to end a single fight.

That being said, you do have a point on this matter.

We're pretty much on the same page with respect to everything else.

I don't want to flatter either of us, nor to sound too arrogant, but considering the absurd amount of time I spent working on Spell Revisions, and the even more considerable amount of time I spent discussing almost every small detail of it with many players (I consider SR a "community work", rather than a work of mine) I'd dare to say I have a pretty outstanding knowledge of the spell system, and thus I don't find strange that a skilled veteran BG player ends up agreeing with me about it more often than not.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 07 septembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[Demivrgvs]

Damn...I quoted instead of editing...silly double post. Too bad I can't erase a post of mine in this forum.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 07 septembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Alesia_BH]

Demivrgvs wrote...

Emotion comes handy in more situations, and thus ends up being used more often

Almost as above. Sunfire is indeed a powerful spell, but I'd suggest Chaos over it because of its "usability".

Emotion and Chaos are both fine recommendations- even if I've never been tempted by Chaos. And I think there is a good thought underlying both picks. Spell efficacy depends on the batle plan used. Given that you can't know how others intend to play, it makes sense to err on the side of spells with broader ranges of applicability when making suggestions. That makes sense.

My approach is a little different. I tend to avoid telling others what they should do with their book and simply use my book as an example. I'm then happy to see others choose whatever works best for them.


I pick Teleport Field and Sunfire because they complement my playing style.

One of my favorite party compositions is a Sorceress PC along with Imoen, Aerie, and Nalia. I protect all my girls from AOE damage with buffs, keep them untargettable via SI:D+II, and then park them in a multilayer Teleport Field. Aerie draws ranged fire with the Reflection Shield. The team's Glitterdust Minor Sequencers and Power Word Blinds provide futher insurance against ranged attack.

This is a solid defensive approach since it shuts down all major damage vectors. But every now and then, the Teleport Field gets a little crowded.

What do you do when you have a bunch of melee fighters swirling around you?

How about Triggering 12 Sunfires?

Now, I rarely have the need or opportunity to Trigger that many Sunfires. But the point is that Teleport Field and Sunfire can become complementary and user friendly when used in concert by an arcane party. That's why I pick them. Others may choose a different approach and -quite naturally- prefer other spells. That's great.

You have a point, my "miscalculation" is mainly based on the fact I forgot vanilla's Robe of Cheese because I always played with a nerfed Robe (-2 casting speed instead of -4). Wrong assumption, because not all players dislike overpowered items and install Item Revisions. My bad.

Understood. I have qualms about Vecna too. It's so much fun though....

Anyway, even counting Vecna's overpowerness, TS would probably still be my second choice (perhaps third under SCS, as you need Spellstrike much more often there and it has an AoE just like within Spell Revisions). TS still has some advantages of its own compared to IA:
* 1 round of full immunity (taking some time/space can be quite useful in some situations)
* always hit under TS routine (e.g. MMM or Energy Blade under TS are ridiculously powerful, and TS+Shapechange can allow players to do some really dirty exploit)

Makes sense. And I agree that Time Stop becomes a fine early pick if you intend to make physical attacks with a poor THACO.

I tend to overstate the case against Time Stop- mostly as a corrective. The game engine and enemy scripts nudge players into viewing Time Stop as the definitive high level mage power spell. However, it's often far less useful then it seems.

One of its primary benefits -immunity from attack- can usually be achieved with low level buffs and fast casting. Under those circumstances, the opportunity cost of Time Stop outweighs the benefits and the spell ends up being counter productive. Many cast it nonetheless.

It does still have its uses of course- and I do appreciate the guaranteed physical hits. But I rarely find myself pinning for it. Again, battle strategy is relevent: I usually pre-buff and skip physical attacks.

I don't think it's so common to need such a high amount of spells to end a single fight.

It's not common. But fights where high level spell budgeting matters tend to be the important ones.

I don't find strange that a skilled veteran BG player ends up agreeing with me about it more often than not.

Yeah. Most people who take casting seriously end up agreeing on the majority of spells. At the same time, there are almost always differences attributable to playing style and party preferences.

One of the reasons I like BG so much is that it tends to reward people who discover their own approach and adapt to different contexts while humbling those who seek to pronounce absolute rules of optimality. It's a lot like life in that way.



Cheers,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 08 septembre 2010 - 09:45 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Demivrgvs wrote...
Sunfire or Chaos --> Chaos is without a doubt better, Sunfire (THE anti-drow spell) is great only if you go solo

Why is Chaos better then Sunfire? Could you give me an example in game why it is better? Sunfire kills alot more things then just drow. It adds damage where horrid welting and other spells can't reach.

Chaos does almost the same thing web does in my experience, and you can have web at a low level. I always pick web BTW and I wonder why no one else does. Chaos in my experience either doesn't work against enemies you want it to work against(like against trolls) or when it does work, you probably could've done without it.

[Slyx]

Is teleport field immunity rare? Will it work on dragons?

[Demivrgvs]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Given that you
can't know how others intend to play, it makes sense to err on the side of spells with broader ranges of applicability when making suggestions. That makes sense.

My approach is a little different. I tend to avoid telling others what they should do with their book and simply use
my book as an example. I'm then happy to see others choose whatever works best for them.

I didn't wanted to sound like "my spell list is the one and only one", but the topic seemed aimed to write down "the best list", and I think we both offered it to a certain extent. From this supposed "best list" you can have many different "best spellbook".

I do agree that there's room to pick different spells here and there (e.g. Sunfire surely isn't weaker than Chaos in the right hands), and whenever there are multiple good choices I listed them, but it's undeniable that many spells are simply useless in the long run (e.g. Sleep and Color Spray) and others cannot compare with spells of the same lvl.

Anyway, you can have a "sub-optimal" spellbook list and still have no problems and Iactually almost always go that way because I prefer themed casters (e.g. my sorcerers generally focused either on invocations or enchantments).

P.S Regarding Time Stop I think we've said enough, its effectiveness is largely dependent on caster's melee/ranged abilities (e.g. kensage, cast'n attack with MMM and Energy Blades, cleric's Harm, Shapechange or Black Blade of Disaster), and on how much you can "exploit" Improved Alacrity (e.g. the Robe of Cheese makes it really OP). Thus yes, you're right, it isn't always the best choice, but amongst the 9th lvl spells is still one of the best by far.

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

Demivrgvs wrote...
Sunfire or Chaos --> Chaos is without a doubt better, Sunfire (THE anti-drow spell) is great only if you go solo

Why is Chaos better then Sunfire? Could you give me an example in game why it is better? Sunfire kills alot more things then just drow. It adds damage where horrid welting and other spells can't reach.

Chaos does almost the same thing web does in my experience, and you can have web at a low level. I always pick web BTW and I wonder why no one else does. Chaos in my experience either doesn't work against enemies you want it to work against(like against trolls) or when it does work, you probably could've done without it.

I'd suggest Chaos to most players simply because it's much more "user-friendly" than Sunfire, but I'm not saying Sunfire is weaker, it's a valid choice indeed, but it's useful in less situations imo. That is unless you're soloing, because for a soloer  I'd instead suggest Sunfire over Chaos. Furthermore I wasn't suggesting Sunfire is only usefl against drows, but it's THE anti-drow spell because of its mr-bypassing bug (yeah, it's a bug, the opcodes are set to not bypass it just like in PnP or any other D&D game but a game engine bug which causes other similar issues makes it ignore mr, and most players obviously welcomed it with joy).

Do you play with SCS or not? SCS spellcasters are often under Protection from Fire or similar spells, and resistance/immunity to fire is a quite common feature within BG opponents. Immunity to confusion is much less common, and I think you're highly understimating the effectiveness of Chaos (huge party friendly AoE, save or else with heavy -4 penalty).

That being said, both Sunfire and Chaos are great picks, you can't go wrong with either of them.

Regarding Web, I do suggested it, as it surely is an outstandingly  powerful 2nd lvl spell (actually many SR users asked me to nerf it because they consider it OP, and we were discussing about making it work as a sort of Improved Entangle as per PnP).

Slyx wrote...

Is teleport field immunity rare? Will it work on dragons?

More than rare actually, almost non-existant.
Dragons are not immune to it.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 09 septembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Demivrgvs wrote...
I'd suggest Chaos to most players simply because it's much more "user-friendly" than Sunfire, but I'm not saying Sunfire is weaker, it's a valid choice indeed, but it's useful in less situations imo. That is unless you're soloing, because for a soloer  I'd instead suggest Sunfire over Chaos. Furthermore I wasn't suggesting Sunfire is only usefl against drows, but it's THE anti-drow spell because of its mr-bypassing bug (yeah, it's a bug, the opcodes are set to not bypass it just like in PnP or any other D&D game but a game engine bug which causes other similar issues makes it ignore mr, and most players obviously welcomed it with joy).

Do you play with SCS or not? SCS spellcasters are often under Protection from Fire or similar spells, and resistance/immunity to fire is a quite common feature within BG opponents. Immunity to confusion is much less common, and I think you're highly understimating the effectiveness of Chaos (huge party friendly AoE, save or else with heavy -4 penalty).

You mention that you play with SCS, I use to play with a heavy Tactics install, their improved mages buffed with several things, including protection from fire as well. The truth is, some buffed vanilla mages can probably withstand a sunfire. Under the same circumstances, sunfire still beats out chaos. Admittingly, their are alot of enemies immune to fire, like demons. But these same enemies, are immune to chaos too. At least sunfire can potentially give you damage against certain things like the low level summons trying to crowd you in, chaos does not. Chaos isn't even an automatic disabler. Why waste slot on something that doesn't even deal any potential damage and  serves the same purpose as a blinding spell would. At least with blinding spells they just stand there.  But I won't argue the merit over the two spells, I see that we both aren't going to budge at all. Definite truths don't seem to exist in an argument such as this.

There are alot of 'bugs' with the game, but it is what it is. The manual saids alot of things as well, I guess it all comes down to what rules we choose to follow. But now that I know that it is a bug, I will keep that in mind, I would still choose it over chaos however. But I respect your decision but disagree with your statement.

[Demivrgvs]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

... At least sunfire can potentially give you damage against certain things like the low level summons trying to crowd you in, chaos does not. Chaos isn't even an automatic disabler. Why waste slot on something that doesn't even deal any potential damage and serves the same purpose as a blinding spell would. At least with blinding spells they just stand there.

Yep, a Mass Blindness would be slightly more effective, tough only because the AI can't handle it. Anyway the true potential of Chaos lies in its -4 save penalty, if it wasn't for that than yes, even Glitterdust would be a better spell.

P.S also note that in theory confusion is almost impossible to "cure" in vanilla (there isn't Break Enchantment without SR), whereas curing hold (Remove Paralysis) or blindness (Cure Disease) isn't hard. But this is almost pointless in this discussion because the AI more often than not cannot handle these things.

But I won't argue the merit over the two spells, I see that we both aren't going to budge at all. Definite truths don't seem to exist in an argument such as this.

Actually I can budge and I already did, I admit that I shouldn't have said "Chaos is surely better", I should have simply suggested Chaos for a party based game, and Sunfire for a soloer. And yes, when two spells are almost equally effective there can't be a "definitive truth" about which one is better, as it depends on in-game situation and playstyle.

There are alot of 'bugs' with the game, but it is what it is. The manual saids alot of things as well, I guess it all comes down to what rules we choose to follow. But now that I know that it is a bug, I will keep that in mind, I would still choose it over chaos however.

Fine with me, it's not like I'm saying Sunfire sucks.

Speaking of "the manual says a lot of things", I do know it, as working on SR I do encountered and fixed quite a lot of incorrect things. For example half BG players still believe that Blindness causes -4 penalty to thac0 and AC, whereas it causes -10 thac0 penalty.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 09 septembre 2010 - 12:16 .

[Thailog]

Demivrgvs wrote...

Speaking of "the manual says a lot of things", I do know it, as working on SR I do encountered and fixed quite a lot of incorrect things. For example half BG players still believe that Blindness causes -4 penalty to thac0 and AC, whereas it causes -10 thac0 penalty.

This is true! In my game, Minsc got blinded by a Cambion and his AC didn't change at all but his THAC0 was severely penalized. I wonder if this qualifies as a bug?

[silenceall]

Demivrgvs wrote...
For example half BG players still believe that Blindness causes -4 penalty to thac0 and AC, whereas it causes -10 thac0 penalty.

You think only half don't know that?  I think you give us too much credit (or certainly me in any event).

I remember on the old forum there was a discussion about the blindness effects and it seemed no one was really sure that blindness caused by Blindness, Glitterdust, and PW:Blind were all the same.  Can you enlighten me - are the blindess effects by these spells all the same?  (I'm also pretty sure no one mentioned the -10 thaco penalty and no AC penalty at that time.)

[Alesia_BH]

Demivrgvs wrote...

I didn't wanted to sound like "my spell list is the one and only one"

 

And I didn't mean to give the impression that you were attempting to lay down the arcane law.

But the topic seemed aimed to write down "the best list", and I think we both offered it to a certain extent. From this supposed "best list" you can have many different "best spellbook".

Makes sense.

I do agree that there's room to pick different spells here and there (e.g. Sunfire surely isn't weaker than Chaos in the right hands), and whenever there are multiple good choices I listed them, but it's undeniable that many spells are simply useless in the long run

Agreed. I'd hesitate to use the word "useless' but certainly limited.

Anyway, you can have a "sub-optimal" spellbook list and still have no problems and Iactually almost always go that way because I prefer themed casters (e.g. my sorcerers generally focused either on invocations or enchantments).

Agreed. I often take the same approach.

P.S Regarding Time Stop I think we've said enough, its effectiveness is largely dependent on caster's melee/ranged abilities (e.g. kensage, cast'n attack with MMM and Energy Blades, cleric's Harm, Shapechange or Black Blade of Disaster), and on how much you can "exploit" Improved Alacrity (e.g. the Robe of Cheese makes it really OP). Thus yes, you're right, it isn't always the best choice, but amongst the 9th lvl spells is still one of the best by far.

Again: makes sense.

Slyx wrote...

Is teleport field immunity rare?

More than rare actually, almost non-existant.

Importantly, it also doesn't allow a save which makes it a truly powerful ability.

I don't really think of Teleport Field as a disabling spell. Rather, I view it as a way to change the physics of the battle field. And if your party is in a position to take advantage of the new laws, then it can seriously work to your advantage.

Even though it is a powerful ability with a high ceiling, it isn't always a wise choice. If your party relies on a compartive advantage in ranged damage dealing it's a boon, otherwise it can hurt.  I think that's one of the reasons why it's often overlooked: you really need to structure your gameplan around it to make it work. If you try to casually mix it into a typical melee oriented party battle plan, it can be counter productive- sometimes dangerously so.


Best,

A. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 09 septembre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Incantatar]

Demivrgvs wrote...
Speaking of "the manual says a lot of things", I do know it, as working on SR I do encountered and fixed quite a lot of incorrect things. For example half BG players still believe that Blindness causes -4 penalty to thac0 and AC, whereas it causes -10 thac0 penalty.

One might think that after ten years of fixpacks and (text) patches the in game descriptions are somehow correct, but this still isn't the case (at least not 100%).

[Demivrgvs]

Thailog wrote...

Demivrgvs wrote...

Speaking of "the manual says a lot of things", I do know it, as working on SR I do encountered and fixed quite a lot of incorrect things. For example half BG players still believe that Blindness causes -4 penalty to thac0 and AC, whereas it causes -10 thac0 penalty.

This is true! In my game, Minsc got blinded by a Cambion and his AC didn't change at all but his THAC0 was severely penalized. I wonder if this qualifies as a bug?

In theory yes, in practice no, because Blindness is applied with a single hardcoded opcode, and thus it's not "fixable".

At least that's what I thought till a while ago, because we recently discovered that using custom "secondary types" we can do a lot of cool things (the current list is here)...still that involves a lot of coding, and in the case of blindness restoring -4 tach0/AC penalties instead of -10 thac0 may not be a good idea, because it would mean not using the hardcoded opcode.

Long story short, we'll see, but as of now Spell Revisions consider this a text error and fixes only the descriptions.

P.S To complete the discussion on this spell I may say we also fixed another bug actually: multiple Blindness effects stacked.

silenceall wrote...

You think only half don't know that?  I think you give us too much credit (or certainly me in any event).

I remember on the old forum there was a discussion about the blindness effects and it seemed no one was really sure that blindness caused by Blindness, Glitterdust, and PW:Blind were all the same.  Can you enlighten me - are the blindess effects by these spells all the same?  (I'm also pretty sure no one mentioned the -10 thaco penalty and no AC penalty at that time.)

Yep, all these spell had the very same effect, because they all used the same blindness opcode.

Incantatar wrote...

One might think that after ten years of fixpacks and (text) patches the in game descriptions are somehow correct, but this still isn't the case (at least not 100%).

Indeed, this is one of the less noticeable things (though very time consuming) we've worked on for SR. Many players may not even notice it, but almost all descriptions have been revised to make them better describe what the spell does, and to make sure that "what you read is what you get".

Sorry for my SR advertisements, it all started because I felt like a little girl hurt when the topic authour bashed my work without really knowing it.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 09 septembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[silenceall]

I've read, but never actually gotten there myself, that a solo sorcerer in TOB must have Pierce Shield to lower the magic resistance of the Ravager in order to be able to damage it (assumes fixpacked vanilla). Can someone confirm? If this is true it adds to the logjam at level 8 and forces you to chose only one of Simmy, Pro Energy, and PW:Blind. Conversely, taking Pierce Shield eliminates the need for RRoR and opens the space for Limited Wish or PfEl or FoD (assumes Mordy, PI, and Sequencer are a given).



Also, given a solo sorcerer (again, fixpacked vanilla), isn't Breach somewhat of a wasted pick when there are wands in WK that will suffice, especially since the sorcerer is going to be focusing on arcane damage and not "combat"?

[Demivrgvs]

silenceall wrote...

I've read, but never actually gotten there myself, that a solo sorcerer in TOB must have Pierce Shield to lower the magic resistance of the Ravager in order to be able to damage it (assumes fixpacked vanilla). Can someone confirm?

The Ravager has 90% magic resistance and 75% physical resistance. For no apparent reason it is immune to Lower Resistance, but not to Pierce Magic, thus you can use it rather than Pierce Shield.

Also note that the only form of energy that cand damage The Ravager is magic damage (e.g. Magic Missile, Horrid Wilting), and it is immune to almost any disabling effect, thus the best way to fight it is having some melee allies, and even then, you need +4 weapons.

Also, given a solo sorcerer (again, fixpacked vanilla), isn't Breach somewhat of a wasted pick when there are wands in WK that will suffice, especially since the sorcerer is going to be focusing on arcane damage and not "combat"?

Well, for a soloer Breach is indeed less appealing, but it does much more than just helping your allied warriors, it dispels all specific protections (e.g. Protection from Energy-like spells, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, etc). Thus it's less useful, but not a waste imo.

Regarding the Wand of Spell Striking, I'm not sure a wand that you find so late in the game is a good reason to ditch such a crucial spell.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 09 septembre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Alesia_BH]

Demivrgvs wrote...

silenceall wrote...

I've read, but never actually gotten there myself, that a solo sorcerer in TOB must have Pierce Shield to lower the magic resistance of the Ravager in order to be able to damage it (assumes fixpacked vanilla). Can someone confirm?

The Ravager has 90% magic resistance and 75% physical resistance. For no apparent reason it has immunity to Lower Resistance, but it isn't to Pierce Magic, thus you can use it rather than Pierce Shield.

Also note that the only form of energy that cand damage The Ravager is magic damage (e.g. Magic Missile, Horrid Wilting), and it is immune to almost any disabling effect, thus the best way to fight it is having some melee ally, and even then, you need +4 weapons.

Even as a soloer, I never found that fight difficult enough to justify choosing spells for it. Worst case, you can simply stay on the move and throw things at it. (*)

Also, given a solo sorcerer (again, fixpacked vanilla), isn't Breach somewhat of a wasted pick when there are wands in WK that will suffice, especially since the sorcerer is going to be focusing on arcane damage and not "combat"?

Well, for a soloer Breach is indeed less appealing, but it does much more than just helping your allied warriors, it dispel all specific protections (e.g. Protection from Energy-like spells, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, etc). Thus it's less useful, but not a waste imo.

Regarding the Wand of Spell Striking, I'm not sure a wand that you find so late in the game is a good reason to ditch such a crucial spell.

I think the key phrase here is in a "solo...fixpacked vanilla" game. Under those circumstances, passing on Breach is a reasonable move since Specific Protections are rare. Further, Breach scrolls are common in SoA and -due to fast level ups-  your dispels are relatively powerful. SI:A isn't an issue.

I've built books that way before and never found myself longing for Breach.


Best,

A.


* My most memorable Ravager fight was with my Transmuter, Alastria. I had her equip her Sling, summon a Planetar, Shapeshift into Greater Wolfwere form, and then had the Planetar dispel the Paws. She then won by chucking sling bullets at it in Greater Wolfwere form. Cheesy in a way, but oddly satisfying.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 09 septembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[silenceall]

Demivrgvs wrote...

silenceall wrote...

I've read, but never actually gotten there myself, that a solo sorcerer in TOB must have Pierce Shield to lower the magic resistance of the Ravager in order to be able to damage it (assumes fixpacked vanilla). Can someone confirm?

The Ravager has 90% magic resistance and 75% physical resistance. For no apparent reason it has immunity to Lower Resistance, but it isn't to Pierce Magic, thus you can use it rather than Pierce Shield.

Also note that the only form of energy that cand damage The Ravager is magic damage (e.g. Magic Missile, Horrid Wilting), and it is immune to almost any disabling effect, thus the best way to fight it is having some melee ally, and even then, you need +4 weapons.

Also, given a solo sorcerer (again, fixpacked vanilla), isn't Breach somewhat of a wasted pick when there are wands in WK that will suffice, especially since the sorcerer is going to be focusing on arcane damage and not "combat"?

Well, for a soloer Breach is indeed less appealing, but it does much more than just helping your allied warriors, it dispel all specific protections (e.g. Protection from Energy-like spells, Chaotic Commands, Death Ward, etc). Thus it's less useful, but not a waste imo.

Regarding the Wand of Spell Striking, I'm not sure a wand that you find so late in the game is a good reason to ditch such a crucial spell.

Thanks for your help on both counts.  W.r.t the Wand of Spell Striking, I guess it depends on whether or not you are willing to go to WK and do a couple of levels early to get it. 

Regarding the Ravager, the damage from FoD and skull traps should also work then.  It's always nice to have melee allays if for no other reason than to keep enemies off of you, but in this case with 75% physical resistance (there's no way to lower that, right?) it seems the easiest path to victory is to lower magic resistance and blast away.  Maybe having a Planetar to keep the bone blades busy and a mordy to occupy The Ravager himself.