162 réponses à ce sujet

[Larkusix]

If you plan to rely on the Wand of Spell Striking for your breaching and spell protections removal, you should take into account, that the wand works slightly different from the respective spells (in the unmodded game). Like all spell casting items, the wand ignores Improved Invisibility. The wand will unfortunately be affected by (Minor) Spell Deflection, (Minor) Spell Turning and Spell Trap. On the other hand the wand is unaffected by Spell Shield (Breach is completely unaffected, Pierce Magic will treat Spell Shield like an ordinary spell srotection).

So, if you are confronted with an enemy mage, that is for example protected by Stone Skin, PfMW and maybe elemental protections, while protecting his combat crotections with Improved Invisibility, Spell Immunity: Abjuration and Spell Immunity: Divination, just cast Breach from the Wand of Spell Striking to bypass his Improved Invisibility to remove his combat protections. If he additionally is protected by Spell Deflection/Spell Turning/Spell Trap, just use a scroll of Breach.


Lark

Modifié par Larkusix, 10 septembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Alesia_BH]

Larkusix wrote...

If you plan to rely on the Wand of Spell Striking for your breaching and spell protections removal, you should take into account, that the wand works slightly different from the respective spells (in the unmodded game).

It's also worth noting that the version of Breach in the Spell Striking wands casts at level 6 and therefore gets over the top of Lich low level spell immunities.


Cheers,

A.


Btw. It's good to see you again Lark!

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 11 septembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[Slyx]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Larkusix wrote...

If you plan to rely on the Wand of Spell Striking for your breaching and spell protections removal, you should take into account, that the wand works slightly different from the respective spells (in the unmodded game).

It's also worth noting that the version of Breach in the Spell Striking wands casts at level 6 and therefore gets over the top of Lich low level spell immunities.

This doesn't appear to be the case with G3 Fixpack installed (isn't this used by most everybody?).  Unless I'm wrong about what Near Infinity tells me (which says the power of the Breach portion of the wand is "5", ala spell lvl 5), it's the same as the spell from the spellbook.

[Alesia_BH]

Slyx wrote...

This doesn't appear to be the case with G3 Fixpack installed (isn't this used by most everybody?).  Unless I'm wrong about what Near Infinity tells me (which says the power of the Breach portion of the wand is "5", ala spell lvl 5), it's the same as the spell from the spellbook.

It's possible that G3 addressed it of late. I've been out of action for a couple years and was running IA with Baldurdash before then.


Also, if you have SCS-II's Consistent Breach component installed, that changes the situation entirely. The component reconciles the differences between the wands and the spell -causing them both to bounce off of Spell Turning and the like amongst other things. SCS-II also makes Breach an exception to Lich 1-5 immunities.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 11 septembre 2010 - 04:07 .

[Thailog]

Teleport Field seems like an overpowered spell to me.

I've just tried it out and the lack of a saving throw makes it incredibly cheesy IMO.

Modifié par Thailog, 13 septembre 2010 - 08:54 .

[Slyx]

Thailog wrote...

Teleport Field seems like an overpowered spell to me.

I've just tried it out and the lack of a saving throw makes it incredibly cheesy IMO.

I'm pretty sure it ignores magic resistance too, so it should land on pretty much everything.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Thailog wrote...

Teleport Field seems like an overpowered spell to me.

I've just tried it out and the lack of a saving throw makes it incredibly cheesy IMO.

You should try it out with cloudkill or any other area effect spell, it's one of the classic comboes of the game.

[Incantatar]

I wouldn't call it cheesy but very powerful in vanilla indeed. ImpInv, Stoneskin and Greater Malison are still even more powerful. Farsight/Arcane Eye and Spirit Armor are in certain strategies/play styles more useful. It really depends.

If you like more balanced spells look at Demi's mod, he advertised above. I can really recommend it. Most spells in vanilla are a bad joke while some are so ridiculous powerful.

[Alesia_BH]

Thailog wrote...

Teleport Field seems like an overpowered spell to me.

I've just tried it out and the lack of a saving throw makes it incredibly cheesy IMO.

It is very powerful. And if you build your battle plan around it, it can become pretty outrageous.

For example, try it out with the battle plan I mentioned earlier. Run a four caster party including a Sorceress and Aerie. Have everyone run SI:D + SI:A + II + MI + Blur + Specific Protections. This will make them all untargetable and immune to AOE spells. Then, put them in a multilayer Teleport Field to cancel out melee attacks (*). Finally, have Aerie intercept all ranged weapon attacks with the Reflection Shield. And if someone or something insists on targetting another party member with a ranged weapon, hit them with Malison-> Glitterdust Minor Sequencers or a Power Word: Blind. That will negate ranged weapon attacks.

If it's done right, the whole party will be untouchable in a Vanilla+Ascension install. And since everyone is protected from AOE damage, you can just light up the Telefield with spells without fear. That's why I always pick Teleport Field and Sunfire when powergaming all arcane parties.

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

 You should try it out with cloudkill or any other area effect spell, it's one of the classic comboes of the game.

Agreed. A Cloudkill + Web mix overlapping a Teleport Field is a nasty early game combo. Just place your party at the bottom edge of the Telefield and watch enemies get swept back into the Cloudkill + Web everytime they try to charge while you pepper them with Melf's Minute Meteors and damage spells. In the alternative, protect your party from the chosen Stationary AOE effects and stay in the center. Stationary AOE Mix + Telefield + Polymorph Self: Mustard Jelly is an amusing way to do it. Due to the 100% Magic Resistance conferred by Mustard Jelly form, you can just hangout in the AOE brew and watch stuff die around you.


Cheers,

A.



* Some may have noted that this method could cause a bottleneck at Level 4 since you'd be using II. SS, and TF regularly. Consequently, it could require a lot of levels. If you'd like to get it up and running relatively early, you can buy some Air Control Rings from Ribald and take II through them.


Btw. Some mods have nerfed Teleport Field and I can certainly understand why: it's extremely powerful for a level 4 spell if used right. I view it as comprable to Time Stop in many ways- with Time Stop giving you control of the temporal mechanics of the battlefield and Teleport Field giving you control of the spatial mechanics.

Btw II. One caveat on Teleport Field use. You can sweep enemies in and out of the battlefield over barriers if you aren't careful. There have been times when I've accidently complicated battles by sweeping stuff into the fray. One battle in the Underdark that ended up including a disoriented crew of Mindflayers sticks out in my memory. I'm sure similar things have happened in other fights. Be sure you know what will be in the field before you cast.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Demivrgvs]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Thailog wrote...

Teleport Field seems like an overpowered spell to me.

I've just tried it out and the lack of a saving throw makes it incredibly cheesy IMO.

It is very powerful. And if you build your battle plan around it, it can become pretty outrageous.

...

Some mods have nerfed Teleport Field and I can certainly understand why: it's extremely powerful for a level 4 spell if used right. I view it as comprable to Time Stop in many ways- with Time Stop giving you control of the temporal mechanics of the battlefield and Teleport Field giving you control of the spatial mechanics.

Well, within Spell Revisions I made it not bypass magic resistance (why shoud it?) and allow a save (though with a heavy -3 save penalty).

We were discussing not long ago to restore its 'no save' feature, but I haven't been able to decide about it yet. On top of what you already said I'd add that this spell unfortunately "suffers" from the same thing that make vanilla's Web a potentially broken spell: stackability. For example multiple TFs can make an entire party of epic Berserkers/Kensais/Cavaliers completely unable to do anything, and it does so without allowing ANY way to prevent it. No magic resistance, no save, and not a single spell protection (unless you are a mage, then you have SI) in the game can protect you from TF (even if "you" means an ancient red dragon, or any other absurdly powerful creaure)...that is really unacceptable imo.

Things will slighlty change in V4 because I'm probably going to add a counter spell, Dimensional Anchor (a 4th lvl cleric spell which grants immunity to TF, Maze and Imprisonment, which can be cast on allies). But even then, unless David will take DA into account for SCS scripts (he took many SR changes into account for SCS, but I can't ask him to do so every second) a 'no save' version of TF would remain too exploitable for players imo.

P.S even if you don't use Spell Revisions these kind of discussions are really helpful to develop it, as player's feedback on spells is crucial to determine which ones are too weak, which ones are too powerful, if there's any broken "combo", or unfixed exploit/issue/bug. For example I don't know how many players understand the true potential of TF like Alesia, I think a  lot of players underestimate it (me too in my first games).

Long story short, go on, you're all helping me (willing or not), and if you have any suggestion don't hesitate to let me know here or at G3.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 13 septembre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Alesia_BH]

Demivrgvs wrote...

[]Well, within Spell Revisions I made it not bypass magic resistance (why shoud it?) and allow a save (though with a heavy -3 save penalty).

It seems like a tricky thing to balance since allowing a magic resistance check AND a save would change it's character completely: it would no longer be a way to exercise control of battlefield mechanics, it would become  just another disabling spell. And in the absence of a save penalty, it would become an expensive way to steal attacks from poor to middling melee fighters. I suppose a judiciously chosen save penalty could balance it with the other 4-5 disablers but its character would still be lost.

We are getting off topic now, but have you considered leaving it like it is and bumping it up to 8 or 9? Raising the opportunity cost and delaying access could solve the balancing problem while preserving the spells uniqueness. 

On top of what you already said I'd add that this spell unfortunately "suffers" from the same thing that make vanilla's Web a potentially broken spell: stackability. For example multiple TFs can make an entire party of epic Berserkers/Kensais/Cavaliers completely unable to do anything, and it does so without allowing ANY way to prevent it. No magic resistance, no save, and not a single spell protection (unless you are a mage, then you have SI) in the game can protect you from TF (even if "you" means an ancient red dragon, or any other absurdly powerful creaure)

I don't know how many players understand the true potential of TF like Alesia, I think a  lot of players underestimate it. 

Agreed. I think the only reason many players haven't discovered its power is that they are often the ones trying to field epic melee fighters. And if that's the case, it becomes difficult to work TF into the battle plan. But once you understand what it does, and tailor your playing style to take advantage of it, it becomes a very powerful tool- arguably too powerful. 

Things will slighlty change in V4 because I'm probably going to add a counter spell, Dimensional Anchor (a 4th lvl cleric spell which grants immunity to TF, Maze and Imprisonment, which can be cast on allies).

That's an interesting idea. A spell like that could also help reign in the Bounty Hunters Maze Traps. I'm not sure I'd like it, but it would force me to fundamentally alter my approach to the game- both with my casters and Alesia (For those who don't know, Alesia is my Bounty Hunter- that's where my forum name comes from).

Level 4 seems a bit cheap for a counter to Maze and Imprisonment. But since Telefield is 4, you probably feel the need to grant early access. Once again, bumping up Telefield's level may be a solution.


Best,

A.


P.S. I'll give SR a whirl someday. I was frankly uninterested until I heard David has worked it into the SCS scripts. Assuming the scripting reflects a thorough understanding of the changes, it could present some new challenges.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:56 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Alesia_BH wrote...



Agreed. A Cloudkill + Web mix overlapping a Teleport Field is a nasty early game combo. Just place your party at the bottom edge of the Telefield and watch enemies get swept back into the Cloudkill + Web everytime they try to charge while you pepper them with Melf's Minute Meteors and damage spells. In the alternative, protect your party from the chosen Stationary AOE effects and stay in the center. Stationary AOE Mix + Telefield + Polymorph Self: Mustard Jelly is an amusing way to do it. Due to the 100% Magic Resistance conferred by Mustard Jelly form, you can just hangout in the AOE brew and watch stuff die around you.


Cheers,

A.

I hadn't thought of that. That's actually a pretty good plan because the last time I used teleport field+cloudkill, I always had the problem of getting the enemies to stay in the field. Most of the time you just want to be out of sight so they won't have any reason to get at you and just stay in the field teleporting around. It's like herding around cattle I suppose.

[Alesia_BH]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

I hadn't thought of that. That's actually a pretty good plan because the last time I used teleport field+cloudkill, I always had the problem of getting the enemies to stay in the field. Most of the time you just want to be out of sight so they won't have any reason to get at you and just stay in the field teleporting around. It's like herding around cattle I suppose.

Even Grease can help keep things in the field if you want to go cheap. When my Transmuter, Alastria, completed the Ascension Battle, I had her load her Teleport Field with Greasy Bunnies. It worked though, admittedly, it was mostly for style points. The girl's personality demanded that she do wacky stuff. Plus, it was a hoot to watch Demons and the 5 swirl around while chasing Greasy Bunnies.


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 13 septembre 2010 - 02:34 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

I hadn't thought of that. That's actually a pretty good plan because the last time I used teleport field+cloudkill, I always had the problem of getting the enemies to stay in the field. Most of the time you just want to be out of sight so they won't have any reason to get at you and just stay in the field teleporting around. It's like herding around cattle I suppose.

Even Grease can help keep things in the field if you want to go cheap. When my Transmuter, Alastria, completed the Ascension Battle, I had her load her Teleport Field with Greasy Bunnies. It worked though, admittedly, it was partly for style points. It was a hoot to watch Demons and the 5 swirl around while chasing Greasy Bunnies. Plus, the girl's personality demanded that she do wacky stuff.


Best,

A.

That's sounds like fun! I'll have to try that one of these days. I've actually always been afraid of soloing a wizard type to ascension due to my inability to actually win with a wizard on that level. I've always wanted to try out the bunny nuke too...gaah...makes me want to play a mage again, I really only play with them if I roll one up in my (random generated) games.

[Demivrgvs]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Demivrgvs wrote...

Well, within Spell Revisions I made it not bypass magic resistance (why shoud it?) and allow a save (though with a heavy -3 save penalty).

It seems like a tricky thing to balance... I suppose a judiciously chosen save penalty could balance it with the other 4-5 disablers but it's character would still be lost.

Yeah, I thought that as long as the save penalty make it work most of the times it would be fine. Does allowing a save really change the spell's "character"?

Alternatively I thought about making it not stack with itself (it's a little tricky but doable), but still, having a disabler spell to which anyone but mages with SI has not a single chance to resist doesn't seem right...does it?

We are getting off topic now, but have you considered leaving like it is and bumping it up to 8 or 9? Raising the opportunity cost and delaying access could solve the balancing problem while preserving the spells uniqueness.

Are we? I think we aren't too much off-topic as long as we talk about spells and their efficiency (I'm still talking about vanilla's TF even when I'm thinking what to do about it for SR ).

Anyway, I haven't considered your suggestion mainly for two reasons:
- changing a spell level can seriously screw the AI (and I want SR to be very "AI friendly")
- most players really don't like that kind of drastical change
I do run into these problems when I was considering to move Blindness from 1st to 2nd lvl as per PnP (even there it would still be one of the most powerful spells for such lvl, but at least less OP).

Things will slighlty change in V4 because I'm probably going to add a counter spell, Dimensional Anchor (a 4th lvl cleric spell which grants immunity to TF, Maze and Imprisonment, which can be cast on allies).

That's an interesting idea. A spell like that could also help reign in the Bounty Hunters Maze Traps. I'm not sure I'd like it, but it would force me to fundamentally alter my approach to the game.

Level 4 seems a bit cheap for a counter to Maze and Imprisonment. But since Telefield is 4, you probably feel the need to grant early access. Once again, bumping up Telefield's level may be a solution.

You got it right, but I also try to stay close to PnP when possible, and Dimensional Anchor is a cleric/wizard 4th lvl spell there.

Furthermore, it's not surprising imo to have lower lvl spells protect from higher lvl ones. Examples: Protection from Fire can easily make you invulnerable to things like Meteor Swarm, Death Ward can protect you from things like FoD or Wail of the Banshee, and similar things happen with Free Action, Chaotic Commands, etc.

P.S the most hilarious case is 1st lvl ProPetrification granting immunity to a 6th lvl spell!

P.S. I'll give SR a whirl someday. I was frankly uninterested until I heard David has worked it into the SCS scripts. Assuming the scripting reflects a thorough understanding of the changes, it could present some new challenges.

Well don't expect any drastical change. When SR is detected SCS simply use more spells when it assigns spellbooks to spellcasters. For example vanilla's Lightning Bolt was too unreliable to be used, but when SR is detected SCS will use it again;  similarly few party-unfriendly spells (e.g. Symbols) are instead party-friendly within SR, and thus SCS uses them., etc.

Furthermore SCS spell tweaks are already included within Spell Revisions, sometimes in a more refined way imo (e.g. SCS makes Ironskin breachable a la Stoneskin, while I actually replaced the former with the latter, because druids and iron really shouldn't go together). There's only one thing I really cannot agree with SCS tweaks, splitting Spell Immunity (one the most exploitable and overpowered spells) into multiple spells to make SI usable via contingency, keeping it stackable (this is the real problem), and not lettiing me fix SI:Abj (which currently doesn't protect from 90% of abjurations, and I had to revert it that way for SCS-compatibility). The way Improved Anvil handled SI is better imo.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 13 septembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Alesia_BH]

Demivrgvs wrote...

Yeah, I thought that as long as the save penalty make it work most of the times it would be fine. Does allowing a save really change the spell's "character"?

That hinges on how you construe the spells "character" of course. For someone like me who views it as a means of controlling battlefield physics a kin to Time Stop, it does. But to those who who view it as a mid level disabler, I would guess that it doesn't.

Anyhoo, when dealing with abstract issues such as the "character" of a spell, one runs the risk of battling a Jaberwocky. I'm not inclined to invest time in debating issues like that- especially in the world of gaming.

I respect your view and agree that it's probably the majority position.

We are getting off topic now, but have you considered leaving like it is and bumping it up to 8 or 9? Raising the opportunity cost and delaying access could solve the balancing problem while preserving the spells uniqueness.

Are we? I think we aren't too much off-topic as long as we talk about spells and their efficiency (I'm still talking about vanilla's TF even when I'm thinking what to do about it for SR ).

"Tell me where a man gets his corpone from and I'll tell you what his opinion is"

                                                                          Mark Twain  :innocent:

Anyway, I haven't considered your suggestion mainly for two reasons:
- changing a spell level can seriously screw the AI (and I want SR to be very "AI friendly")

Makes sense.

- most players really don't like that kind of drastical change

Understood. What constitutes a drastic change is of course a function of perspective. I recommened changing the level rather than the spell partly because it seems like a lesser change to me. But again, my take on Teleport Field is probably rare.

You got it right, but I also try to stay close to PnP when possible, and Dimensional Anchor is a cleric/wizard 4th lvl spell there.

Understood. My exposure to DnD is strictly limited to BG so those issues don't occur to me. I appreciate the concern though.

Furthermore, it's not surprising imo to have lower lvl spells protect from higher lvl ones. Examples: Protection from Fire can easily make you invulnerable to things like Meteor Swarm, Death Ward can protect you from things like FoD or Wail of the Banshee, and similar things happen with Free Action, Chaotic Commands, etc.

Oh, of course: it happens. That said, while Maze and Imprisonment have always had their counters in the BG world, they have traditionally been relatively difficult or costly to protect against. I'm not sure introducing a level 4 touch spell that provides protection would be a step forward. If it didn't cause scripting issues, simply bumping up Telefield's level would seem to change less all told. The approach you're contemplating seems workable though.  

Btw. Twain's quote is as applicable to me as anyone else. Is it a surprise that a player whose favorite character is a Bounty Hunter and who likes to layer Teleport Fields thick is uncomfortable with a Level 4 touch Dimmensional Anchor? 

P.S. I'll give SR a whirl someday. I was frankly uninterested until I heard David has worked it into the SCS scripts. Assuming the scripting reflects a thorough understanding of the changes, it could present some new challenges.

Well don't expect any drastical change. When SR is detected SCS simply use more spells when it assigns spellbooks to spellcasters.

Understood.

There's only one thing I really cannot agree with SCS tweaks, splitting Spell Immunity (one the most exploitable and overpowered spells) into multiple spells to make SI usable via contingency, keeping it stackable (this is the real problem), and not lettiing me fix SI:Abj (which currently doesn't protect from 90% of abjurations, and I had to revert it that way for SCS-compatibility). The way Improved Anvil handled SI is better imo.

Understood. I haven't really had a chance to play with SCS's revisions yet. I loved the idea of SCS and talked it up a bit on the old forums. However, I never was able to get it going for a full playthrough on my Mac. The techinical issue was later resolved, but I was on BG sabbatical by that time. It is setup on my current (still unplayed) install.

The Spell Immunity adjustments in IA always seemed to have potential to me. But as of 4.2 (the version that was out before I took my BG break-) I didn't find the IA solution especially helpful: the debuffing strategy window was still very small and the scripts weren't intelligent enough to deal with the obvious counter. I haven't tried it since Spell Shield was nerfed and pushed deeper into the adventure- nor have I had a chance to face the mage scripts which do an SI:A check before dumping Breaches after the Ruby Ray assault. I definitely could see the IA solution working with those adjustments and others, but I haven't actually tried it.

All told, I suppose I'm totally unqualified to comment on the respective SI solutions right now. Perhaps I'll have more to say once I get back in action.


In any event, I do think we should get back to talking about vanilla spell picks....



Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 13 septembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[amanasleep]

I would just mention that GOI is the other way to beat TF besides SI. It's still a mage buff, so no relief for the poor AI.



As far as the SR version, I'd say that the MR check is 100% justified and doesn't change the character of the spell at all. The ST check is reasonable IMO. In the late game you might need to soften up with a Greater Malison to make certain the tougher enemies get bamfed regularly (Demi, what's the current build of SR Malison, did it end up at -2?).



In vanilla, TF is a great L4 pick, even when solo. It can really save your bacon.

[ncknck]

There is no single spell list to end it all, as sorc's roles can vary. A sorc debuffer, a sorc buffer, a sorc nuker, a sorc summoner, a solo sorc, a party sorc. All use different spell picks. Saying just "sorc" is too general.

[ncknck]

Hier is a useful combo

PI+spelltrap= infinite spells anytime. This makes lvl9 picks pretty fixed

Lvl9
-Timestop, duh
-CC, duh
-Spelltrap, see above
-your choice. Id pick Spellstrike. Its the easiest, and fastest way to get rid of enemy protections. Whichever he has, just spellstrike it once or twice. Done. (ruby ray will help for particularly nasty mages)

Not taken:
Wish - pointless spell. Takes very long time to cast(if including talk time). And picks are not guaranteed. PI+scrollread it.
Shapeshange, cool spell, but no place.
Imprisonment. A touch spell? Common.
BBoD, you are not a fighter.
Absolute Immunity - PfMW.

Modifié par ncknck, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Demivrgvs]

amanasleep wrote...

As far as the SR version, I'd say that the MR check is 100% justified and doesn't change the character of the spell at all. The ST check is reasonable IMO. In the late game you might need to soften up with a Greater Malison to make certain the tougher enemies get bamfed regularly (Demi, what's the current build of SR Malison, did it end up at -2?).

SR's Malison still is IWD/PnP Malison, thus -2.

I think there was a suggestion about making it not dispellable a la Lower Resistance (but making it "curable" via Break Enchantment), but we haven't decided about it yet (V4 discussions haven't even started).

ncknck wrote...

There is no single spell list to end it all, as sorc's roles can vary. A sorc debuffer, a sorc buffer, a sorc nuker, a sorc summoner, a solo sorc, a party sorc. All use different spell picks. Saying just "sorc" is too general.

I sort of agreed, but the topic author was asking for a sorcere who can handle almost anything on his/her own. A debuffer or a buffer is out of question for that (they shine only within a party), and a summoner in general is pathetic in vanilla (most summons are too weak in vanilla, and the best one, Mordy, isn't even a conjuration). The "nuker" (I prefer to call it Invoker) is your best bet, but still cannot handle everything unless you mix in spells of any kind.

As I said, there is indeed a "best list", but that doesn't mean there's a single "best spellbook", because you have a bunch of spell choices to make here and there (not too much in vanilla actually).

ncknck wrote...

Hier is a useful combo

PI+spelltrap= infinite spells anytime. This makes lvl9 picks pretty fixed

I tend to not encourage cheats and exploits, else I could list tons of similar issues where you can abuse the AI limitations or engine bugs:
- PI + Shapechange = an image who can fight
- PI or Simulacrum = infinite scrolls
- Time Stop + Shapechange (Mind Flayer) = kill ANYONE with a couple of hits
- Chain Contingency can be cast during game pause
- Chain Contingency + 3x PI = outrageously lame
Vanilla's spell system had really too many issues like these.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[Incantatar]

In Vanilla Spellstrike isn't really necessary. It's generally not regarded en par with other 9th lvl spells.

And Wish and Shapechange have awesome possibilities. I personally prefer renewing my spellbook with Wish than PI's item copying, i think it's an exploit. But we are talking about Sorcerers so this isn't an argument. (Can you break something thats already broken?)

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Incantatar wrote...
Can you break something thats already broken?

Let's break somebody's arm and find out.

[ncknck]

Demivrgvs wrote...

As I said, there is indeed a "best list", but that doesn't mean there's a single "best spellbook", because you have a bunch of spell choices to make here and there (not too much in vanilla actually).

I dont understand. A "best list" which is not fitting into a "best spellbook" is just a list of all spells. Well mb short of Infravision hehe. Further specialization just makes selection easier. Basically a nuker takes all damage spells. And a debuffer all the debuffs. The problem is to make an all-around sorc.


- an image who can fight= aka summon
- infinite scrolls=aka resting
- kill ANYONE with a couple of hits=aka fighter/mage
- Chain Contingency = aka pay 1 lvl9 spell to skip a round.
- Chain Contingency + 3x PI =well, even 1xPI is lame tbh, so makes no difference here 1 or 3...

Not really exploits in my book, well mb CC is. I would rather quote PI's summon limit bypassing. That makes a sorc quite a decent summoner too. With an army of Planetars and M-swords.

Modifié par ncknck, 14 septembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Slyx]

Doesn't the G3 fixpack fix the 3 PI's into a CC "exploit" ?

[ncknck]

Dont see whats the big deal is. Anything which could be done with 4 PI's can be done with 1 PI just as well. Anyway yes, its gone with the G3 fixpack. 4 PI's =no go.