162 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...

Dont see whats the big deal is. Anything which could be done with 4 PI's can be done with 1 PI just as well. Anyway yes, its gone with the G3 fixpack. 4 PI's =no go.

You have more spells per second and of course more level 9 spell slots (for near-certain Wish resting)

[ncknck]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
You have more spells per second and of course more level 9 spell slots (for near-certain Wish resting)

You have more spells with IA. That is, an almost entire spellbook in 1 round. 4 PI only get 4 spells per round. And once IA is up, everything should die even from a single PI. On the other hand if those 4 are dispelled, which is very not improbable with mods, the core sorc just lost 1 lvl9 and 4 lvl7 spells, which is what those 4 PI's will be missing too, decreasing their damage output. Not that it matters since 1 PI is more than capable to unleash complete hell.

And just for resting, why would it matter, just cast another one, there is no time pressure.

Modifié par ncknck, 14 septembre 2010 - 04:29 .

[Demivrgvs]

ncknck wrote...

- an image who can fight= aka summon

ha ha ha

- infinite scrolls=aka resting

Since when resting grants you infinite scrolls? And you're forgetting that one thing is resting after a fight to scribe a new scroll (I suppose you have that in mind) another one is being able to duplicate x times ANY scroll without actually consuming it, and without resting (can you rest during a fight? I must have forgot that!). Furthermore, via exploit you can have your mage use 9th lvl scrolls as much as he/she wish at lower levels.

P.S I may also add it grants infinite use of quick items.

- kill ANYONE with a couple of hits=aka fighter/mage

No, you can kill even creatures immune to damage via INT drain, it's much worse than a fighter-mage.

- Chain Contingency (during pause) = aka pay 1 lvl9 spell to skip a round.

No, it's 3 spells for free instantly, aka skip 3 rounds without even consuming 1 to cast the first spell.

- Chain Contingency + 3x PI =well, even 1xPI is lame tbh, so makes no difference here 1 or 3...

Ok, I really cannot take seriously this statement.

Not really exploits in my book, well mb CC is. I would rather quote PI's summon limit bypassing. That makes a sorc quite a decent summoner too. With an army of Planetars and M-swords.

I haven't listed them all yes, but if things like 3x PI and casting a 9th lvl spell during game pause are not exploits to you than we have little to dicuss.

ncknck wrote...

And just for resting, why would it matter, just cast another one, there is no time pressure.

He was talking about the ability to "rest" via Wish during a fight. Thus there's both time pressure and spell slots limit.

[ncknck]

 A planetar > shapechanged image. all the spells vs an unbuffed tank? Isnt even a question. For that matter Msword > shapechanged image as well. Tanks better. So whats the exploit again? An extra summon? Oh my.

Since when resting grants you infinite scrolls?

The moment it refreshed the spellbook. Cloned spells arent infinite, they are just an extension of sorcs base spellbook. Say there are 5 lvl9 spells memorized and 5 scrolls in a quickslot. Same thing. Since memorized spells can be refreshed indefinitely, it doesnt matter if some are cast from scrolls. You cast both types again once rested. and again. So resting is an exploit now.. hehe. 

No, you can kill even creatures immune to damage via INT drain, it's much worse than a fighter-mage.

What you probably mean is that the fighter/mage can kill them, Agreed. And yes, a mindflayer shapechange is an image not casting spells. Which is quite a waste.

No, it's 3 spells for free instantly, aka skip 3 rounds without even consuming 1 to cast the first spell.

Nonono. A CC is a precast, you can cast it the day before, and it still goes off instantly, just like every other contingency. Thats the power of contingencies and by no chance a CC's unique property. 1 lvl9 spell for 1 round is actually a fair trade-off. And not unheard of. Its called a Quicken Spell Metamagic in NWN, allowing mages to cast 2 spells in 1 round. Exactly what we have here. So no exploits here either. Unless the entire contingency line of spells an exploit now.. hehe.. i disagree.

I haven't listed them all yes, but if things like 3x PI and casting a 9th lvl spell during game pause are not exploits to you than we have little to dicuss.

Im sorry but CC by itself does not do anything. Call it lvl9, lvl1 or lvl1000. Its just a tool, not really a spell. You are making quite a jumps here, and still havent answered the question about "best spellbook".

He was talking about the ability to "rest" via Wish during a fight. . Thus there's both time pressure and spell slots limit.

No he wasnt, we both see the above statement. Ok so you say he was talking about resting during a fight. So the first thing you say newly spawned PI's with full spellsbooks want to do is to rest?? Ok common, im starting to think youre trolling. Lets return to spellbook discussion, and not talk about how you think resting or contingencies are exploits, shall we.  You mentioned there was a "best spell" list for a sorc?

Modifié par ncknck, 14 septembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Demivrgvs]

ncknck wrote...

 A planetar > shapechanged image. all the spells vs an unbuffed tank? Isnt even a question. For that matter Msword > shapechanged image as well. Tanks better. So whats the exploit again? An extra summon? Oh my.

The exploit is that images are not supposed to be able to attack.

No, you can kill even creatures immune to damage via INT drain, it's much worse than a fighter-mage.

What you probably mean is that the fighter/mage can kill them, Agreed. And yes, a mindflayer shapechange is an image not casting spells. Which is quite a waste.

Eh? l wasn't talking about that, I was talking about Time Stop + Mind Flayer combo. Not a bug, but it's highly exploitable.

No, it's 3 spells for free instantly, aka skip 3 rounds without even consuming 1 to cast the first spell.

Nonono. A CC is a precast, you can cast it the day before, and it still goes off instantly, just like every other contingency. Thats the power of contingencies and by no chance a CC's unique property. 1 lvl9 spell for 1 round is actually a fair trade-off. And not unheard of. Its called a Quicken Spell Metamagic in NWN, allowing mages to cast 2 spells in 1 round. Exactly what we have here. So no exploits here either. Unless the entire contingency line of spells an exploit now.. hehe.. i disagree.

I suppose you haven't understood what I was saying...vanilla's Chain Contingency can be cast WHILE THE GAME IS PAUSED!! That is the exploit. You're in the middle of a fight, you pause the game, cast CC, and then remove the pause, voilà, 3 instant spells.

P.S how you decided that "1 lvl 9 spell = 3 spells = 1 round" is a mistery.

Im sorry but CC by itself does not do anything. Call it lvl9, lvl1 or lvl1000. Its just a tool, not really a spell. You are making quite a jumps here, and still havent answered the question about "best spellbook".

Cool, now CC is not a spell anymore. Good to know.

Regarding the "best list" and "best spellbooks" most other players seemed to have understood what I was saying, thus I gave it for granted sorry. Best List:  within vanilla BG you have a huge amount of spells, but half of them are undeniably underpowered compared to others in the same lvls, the "best list" includes only the best spells for each lvl. Best Spellbooks: sometimes (not too often imo) you have to make some choices for each lvl because you have 6-7 good spells and only 4-5 slots, that's why with the "best list" you can have slightly different "best spellbooks", none of which can be objectively called better than the others in all instances, but all of which contain only great spells.

He was talking about the ability to "rest" via Wish during a fight. . Thus there's both time pressure and spell slots limit.

No he wasnt, we both see the above statement. Ok so you say he was talking about resting during a fight. So the first thing you say newly spawned PI's with full spellsbooks want to do is to rest??

Well if you can see that statement, put on some glasses and read Taifun's line again: "for near-certain Wish resting".

He doesn't said that the first thing a PI should do is that. A newly created PI doesn't necessarily have full spellbook. And Wish resting feature is a HUGE thing, not something banal as you seem to think. It allows your entire party to heal, regain all lost spellbooks (thus up to 6 party members spellbooks, including priests), recharge all x/day items, regain all innate abilities (e.g. Enrage, fighters HLAs, etc), and so on. All of that during a fight (last ToB fight being the most outstanding example where this tactic would really shine).

Ok common, im starting to think youre trolling.

Well, I admit we're going off-topic now, but if someone quotes/comments a post of mine and say multiple incorrect things I feel obliged to reply, especially when that someone makes me look like an idiot while he should have simply read twice before replying (most of the times here you didn't even understood what I or Taifun said).

That being said, I'M A FORUM TROLL?!? ahahah I'm actually the only one here who have offered a full list (here), just like the topic's author asked, and I gladly discussed many spell picks with other players (Alesia in particular). If that is trolling...

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 14 septembre 2010 - 08:22 .

[Alesia_BH]

ncknck wrote...


Not really exploits in my book

You're entitled to your opinion of course- we all have our own ideas about what is or is not an exploit. And so long as you are playing a single player game, no one is harmed if your opinion differs radically from others.

While there is nothing wrong with playing ones own way, there is a cost to operating with a definition of "exploits" that departs from the majority view. If you are using spells and abilities in a manner that others consider exploitive, then the community may not be interested in many of your casting ideas- simply because they aren't relevant to their playing style. That needn't bother you of course- you may find more enjoyment in playing your way then in relating to others with different views- but the cost is worth considering.

Personally, I derive much of my enjoyment from the game via discussion and exchange with other members of this community. And so I try to learn and understand the playing norms of my peers so that my commentary can be considered relevant. That's just one approach to enjoying the game though- not necessarily better than any other.

ncknck wrote...

You mentioned there was a "best spell" list for a sorc?

I could be mistaken, but I believe Demivrgvs meant that given a particular goal (ex- Building an all-around sorcerer with all spells helpful throughout each stage of the adventure) one can identity a subset of the spells available in the game which are likely to be more helpful than others (Extending our example of the "all round" Sorcerer, this would be a list that excluded Infravision, Color Spray, Chill Touch, and the like). This would be a "best list" in his terminology. And from that best list, there can be a number of "best" spellbooks- each tailored to the particular playing style and objectives of the players composing the respective spell books.

I don't think any one need find that especially controversial.


I agree that we are getting off topic.


Personally, I'd like to see some more spell lists. I'd be happy to see a bunch of people post their favorite lists- irrespective of whether they consider them the "best" in some sense or not. It's interesting to see how others cast. I find it to be a good source of ideas- an excellent way to find new casting sweetspots.


Best,

A.


P.S.- I just fired up a game actually. I'm rebuilding my Transmuter, Alastria, as a sorceress for SCS play. The early results have been encouraging. I'll post on her list once it's closer to being fully formed. 

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[AnonymousHero]

ncknck wrote...
 A planetar > shapechanged image. all the spells vs an unbuffed tank? Isnt even a question. For that matter Msword > shapechanged image as well. Tanks better. So whats the exploit again? An extra summon? Oh my.

A shapechanged image attacking is an exploit. They're not supposed to be able to.

It doesn't matter if there are more powerful forms of attack (though I'd argue that there are very few things as powerful as a Mind Flayer attacking during Time Stop.)

ncknck wrote...

No, you can kill even creatures immune to damage via INT drain, it's much worse than a fighter-mage.

What you probably mean is that the fighter/mage can kill them, Agreed. And yes, a mindflayer shapechange is an image not casting spells. Which is quite a waste.

No, they can literally kill unkillable creatures/entities... such as the statue in the Temple Ruins. Or killing Draconis in his human form and avoiding his dragon form entirely.

ncknck wrote...
Ok common, im starting to think youre trolling. Lets return to spellbook discussion, and not talk about how you think resting or contingencies are exploits, shall we.  You mentioned there was a "best spell" list for a sorc?

Accusing Demivrgus of trolling is abusrd. Your posts, however, are phrased in a very inflammatory manner and parts are very difficult even to comprehend because you seem to insist on shortening everything into incomprehensibility.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
You have more spells per second and of course more level 9 spell slots (for near-certain Wish resting)

You have more spells with IA. That is, an almost entire spellbook in 1 round. 4 PI only get 4 spells per round.

Huh. Why should the PIs be excluded from the IA fun? Why not almost four entire spell books?
I agree that this is usually a waste, but it doesn't change the very noticeable increase in power.

´

And just for resting, why would it matter, just cast another one, there is no time pressure.

As Demivrgvs said, this is to be done during battle - for infinite spells in any drawn out fights.
Oh, and I agree that you shouldn't be calling anyone else a troll. But me saying that is like the pot calling the kettle black (me feeding trolls for a hobby), so I'll be quiet now.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 14 septembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[ncknck]

 

The exploit is that images are not supposed to be able to attack.

Ok so? You posted a list of "gamebreaking exploits". How is a summon a gamebreaking exploit. Who would even care to attack with an image?? Same with a timestopped Mindflayed. A fighter/mage with Timestop+GWW will get 10 autohits on a target, and is exactly the same danger to 99.999% of enemies. These all are completely legitimate game tactics. You'd have to stamp half the game as "exploits" if continuing this thinking.

I suppose you haven't understood what I was saying...vanilla's Chain Contingency can be cast WHILE THE GAME IS PAUSED!!

Id hate to say it, but CC a casttime 0 spell, and so are most other spells too, for a mage with Vecna+amulet. Why do you think IA+Vecna is so powerful, it lets people cast spells instantly. Strange how you call CC an "exploit", and ignore the other much more powerful spell, which does the same thing with half a spellbook. CC is just another borrowed 3ed game mechanic. (check up Quicken Spell in NWN, its called Metamagic, and is not a spell hehe). You'll have to live with 3ed borriwings because BG2!=AD&D.

And Wish resting feature is a HUGE thing, not something banal as you seem to think.

Its powerful yes, but i know of better things, which i already stated above like PI+spelltrap. Just because you think half the things in the game are "exploits" doesnt make them so. Casting 4 PI is fun, but pretty much a waste. Dispelling is phun.

but if someone quotes/comments a post of mine and say multiple incorrect things I feel obliged to reply, especially when that someone makes me look like an idiot

Actually its again you, who line-quoted me. Care to scroll up the page to confirm?

In short you have some twisted ideas about "exploiting", which is ok, just dont state those ideas as "facts" cause its stupid. PERIOD.

the "best list" includes only the best spells for each lvl.

I see. So basically its sorting spells with some subjective rank in mind. And whats the point of that. Say Skull Trap is the "best" lvl3 spell, but a de/buffer sorc still doesnt need it. Your list on the last page is more or less adequate. I'd drop things like Finger of Death though

within vanilla BG you have a huge amount of spells, but half of them are undeniably underpowered compared to others in the same lvls

Ok.. sufficient to say, that yes.. some spells do start to become underpowered in BG2ToB... so i kind of agree. But for the record, "Sleep" is one of the most powerful spells in BG1 so "fixing" it "vanilla", might not be a great idea.

[ncknck]

Alesia_BH wrote...
Personally, I'd like to see some more spell lists. I'd be happy to see a bunch of people post their favorite lists- irrespective of whether they consider them the "best" in some sense or not. It's interesting to see how others cast. I find it to be a good source of ideas- an excellent way to find new casting sweetspots.

Having everyone posting their spellbooks would explode the thread me thinks, and not be particularly productive. Especially considering that many people play modded games. And seriously talk about game "exploits" while having their games modded with Spell50, GM, or "unnerved" thac0 and spellslots tables hehe. So there isnt really a common ground here, unless talking strictly vanilla. In which many spells arent needed. So at best one could talk about favorite spell combos. Like PI+spelltrap. Or spam clones, which in turn spam summons (really brings down the framerate hehe)

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...
Ok so? You posted a list of "gamebreaking exploits".

Just for the record. This is not a quote.
The first one to speak of "gamebreaking" is you.
And how is something that is not supposed to be an exploit?
Easy. You exploit the engine to get something you are not supposed to get.

These all are completely legitimate game tactics.

With the minor exception that the PI is not supposed to be able to attack.

Id hate to say it, but CC a casttime 0 spell, and so are most other spells too, for a mage with Vecna+amulet. Why do you think IA+Vecna is so powerful, it lets people cast spells instantly. Strange how you call CC an "exploit", and ignore the other much more powerful spell, which does the same thing with half a spellbook.

There is a difference between casting a spell instantly and casting a spell while your aura is still clogged and the game is paused, resulting in 3 spells even if you are not even supposed to be able to cast spells at all (Miscast Magic, Dead Magic Area, Insect Plague, whatever).

So, gotta go, otherwise I'll be late.

[ncknck]

Its easy to dismiss things you arent being able to cope with or just disagree. Solution is simple actually. Play the game or make your own. Id also suggest visiting NWN forums and telling them how bad of an exploit Quicken Spell is. For my pleasure.

[Demivrgvs]

I apologize for the off-topic material, I really cannot resist to reply when I'm involved like this.

Alesia, I second everything you said, and you described what I was trying to say better than I could have done myself.

Thanks AnonymousHero and Taifun for trying to explain nckcnk what's going on, I suppose I should stop trying though because this is getting kinda personal and I'm losing my patience.

Ncknck, the above mentioned players have confirmed and better explained more or less everything I was saying or was going to say, thus I won't continue a pointless debate with you sorry, because if you don't get things like "CC during game pause" then you're either too "unqualified" for this discussion, or you're simply trying to annoy me to hell.

I'll only comment on on-topic things like these:

ncknck wrote...

the "best list" includes only the best spells for each lvl.

I see. So basically its sorting spells with some subjective rank in mind. And whats the point of that. Say Skull Trap is the "best" lvl3 spell, but a de/buffer sorc still doesnt need it. Your list on the last page is more or less adequate. I'd drop things like Finger of Death though

That list is based on the original one of the topic's author. If you read my list paying attention to notes you'll notice that I'm not recommending Finger of Death, because there are better all-around spells.

The list of "best spells" is not subjective, the "best spellbook" partially is. For example is it subjective that vanilla's Skull Trap deal twice as much damage than Fireball, can be used as a trap, and uses a much better damage type? No.

Regarding the supposed "best spellbook", Alesia explained this better than me, the topic's author is not looking for debuffer, but for an all-around caster able to handle everything on his own, that's why for example I suggested him Chaos over Sunfire, but it doesn't mean the latter is a weaker spell.

within vanilla BG you have a huge amount of spells, but half of them are
undeniably underpowered compared to others in the same lvls

Ok.. sufficient to say, that yes.. some spells do start to become underpowered in BG2ToB... so i kind of agree. But for the record, "Sleep" is one of the most powerful spells in BG1 so "fixing" it "vanilla", might not be a great idea.

It's not a subjective thing to not recommend Sleep in such list, because Vanilla's Sleep is completely pointless in BG2, as it doesn't even affect 99% of your opponents early on, and absolutely no one later on.

Wanting to "fix" Sleep is subjective instead, but I do so only to try making the game more interesting. SR's Sleep is less powerful in BG1 (easier save), but continues to "improve" with caster lvls, as instead of using a fixed 4 HD cap I've made it affect creatures with equal or less HD/lvls than the caster. Furthermore, I've been able to make affected characters wake up if injured (they are asleep, not paralyzed). Feel free to think what I did is not a great idea though.

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 15 septembre 2010 - 09:37 .

[ncknck]

Demivrgvs 
Its ok, if you dont understand that every Chain Spell goes off instantly if triggered so, or other basic knowledge, this is not the place to teach how spells work in Bioware games. Although maybe it is. Like said everyone is free to have an opinion about the game, we are all playing. Use it or dont, i do not care. You brought it up remember? (for the third time now)

The list of "best spells" is not subjective, the "best spellbook" partially is. For example is it subjective that vanilla's Skull Trap deal twice as much damage than Fireball, can be used as a trap, and uses a much better damage type? No.

See there is the same problem right there again. Cherrypicking selected things, declare them for a "fact", everything else for an "exploit", and proceed. A common mistake, people confuse game system with a game setting. It shows nicely in a "sleep" example above. Game setting is local, while spells are universal and should never be balanced or judged according just to one setting.

Play that sorc in a setting where everyone has magic damage immunity and ST is completely useless. There goes that list and opinions. And of course Fireball has a longer range so can be cast offscreen, even at targets which are not yet in its range and on misfire, its gone. Skulltrap, being a trap, stays and the area suddenly becomes hostile, because trapped hehe. Granted, in vanilla BG2TOB, ST is slightly better than a fireball. But generally Fireball is not worse at all. ST doesnt even reach its full power until ToB! (regularly). A nuker sorc will have to take both, if its designed by a competent player of course. A debuffer has no need for either. 

Are you seriously thinking it isnt possible to play through the game with a debuffer? With damage spells most capped debuffing is what sorcs do, ffs. All is needed for damage is AdHW, and some other selected spells hehe.

As for sleep, see above, "balancing" spells just for BG2 is a sure way to break them for other mods. Same with judging. For example if the threadstarter is going to play BG1 for a change, with that 2ppl party with his "best spells", and not having sleep, this is gonna be.. bad, very bad.

Modifié par ncknck, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:05 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

ncknck wrote...
Its easy to dismiss things you arent being able to cope with or just disagree.

ncknck wrote...
Its ok, if you dont understand that every Chain Spell goes off instantly if triggered so,

I think I'll just leave it at that. Feeding trolls is one thing. Trying to talk to a wall is another.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 15 septembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Incantatar]

ncknck sorry but your comments become more absurd with every post.

Just saying that you think there are more useful strategies doesn't make an exploit no exploit anymore. Also you try to instruct Demivrgvs in D&D and spell lore?  

You speak about Quicken Metamagic. It's another spell and combat system but ok. Lets do it for a moment, you know that it means spell lvl+4? That is at the most one lvl5 spell as a swift action per round. Not 3 lvl 8 spells per pushing the space bar.
Also the name of the spell is Chain Contingency. You seem to don't know much about D&D. In e.g. 3.5 a contingency spell takes 10 minutes to cast. It's not supposed to be used in combat.

The analogy makes no sense at all. If you don't think you're cheating you are welcome, nobody cares it's a single player game (except Silkret perhaps when playing his mod).  I won't say that there is no room for debate when talking about exploits, but you haven't brought any substantive arguments for your side.
Correct me if it's strawman/sth missing:
-It's not an exploit because there are more effective ways to beat the enemy [that's not an valid argument. Clearly it can be still an exploit, even if there were more effective ways]
-NWN does the same, so it's not an exploit [not comparable as i described]

Regarding Fireball and Sleep. For both spells you can have wands. Fireball is not comparable in dmg output after reaching lvl 11. Fire resistance is widespread. Skull Traps and Fireball both are good ways to use meta knowledge and abuse bad AI, if you think thats good. Fireball as you mentioned for firing in fog of war, ST for trapping spawn points.

[Shadow_Leech07]

Alesia_BH wrote...




Personally, I'd like to see some more spell lists. I'd be happy to see a bunch of people post their favorite lists- irrespective of whether they consider them the "best" in some sense or not. It's interesting to see how others cast. I find it to be a good source of ideas- an excellent way to find new casting sweetspots.


Best,

A.


P.S.- I just fired up a game actually. I'm rebuilding my Transmuter, Alastria, as a sorceress for SCS play. The early results have been encouraging. I'll post on her list once it's closer to being fully formed. 

Here would be my theory solo sorcerer if I were to play one now(I'm not in anyway going to play a sorceror soon however because I'm working on a fighter solo (insane) in Baldur's Gate right now because I want to nab all the tomes and hopefully cloak of balduran transfers over?(wishful thinking) so that I may get a kensai dualed to a thief in BG2...because I'm like that) 

Alright theory/looking at all the spells right now

Level 1:
Magic Missile
Chromatic Orb
Shield
Sleep
Protection from Evil

Random Comments: Protection from evil is good against some demons. And it might even add some AC bonus, I'm not sure. For whatever means, whenever that firebeard wizard in candlekeep casts it on the PC, the AC is helped. According to this 'General Spell Info' list I am looking at ATM, Shield protects against magic missiles, that is a really good thing.
Level 2:
Mirror Image
Blur
Web
Knock
Resist Fear

Comments: I like web so it's in here.With ring of freedom, it's a poor man's timestop. Blur has saves bonuses. I don't know about knock, but perhaps a sorceror needs to open some chests or doors, I don't know, maybe the spell isn't needed as much as I think. It's been quite awhile since I've soloed a sorcerer(or sorceress in my case).

Level 3:
Dispel Magic
Skull Trap
Melf's Magic Meteors
Haste
Fireball
Comments: Tough calls in this level. I simply picked all my favorite spells aka spells I frequently use.

Level 4:
Stoneskin
Greater Malison
Minor Sequencer
Spirit Armor
Teleport Field
Comments: This is also a list containing my favorite spells. Improved invisibility is actually one of my favorite level four spells, however a sorceror should not pick this spell because Ribald sells a limitless amount of the spell(ring of air control). Polymorph Self is another spell I use very often, however when I tested it with an actual mage, it seems the thaco did not improve. So perhaps wizards and sorcerors are not the best recipients of this particular spell.

Level 5:
Animate Dead
Lower Resistance
Spell Immunity
Spell Shield
Sunfire
Comments: Again, favorite spell list.

Level 6:
Tenser's Transformation
Contingency
Improved Haste
Protection from magical weapons
True Sight

Comments: Spells I frequently use, I would use for my sorcerer. Several spells here can be placed into a sequencer.

Level 7:
Project Image
Limited Wish
Mordenkainen's Sword
Spell Sequencer
Ruby Ray of Reversal

Comments: Not going to lie to you, I really only use PI, Mordy Sword, and Spell Sequencer. The other picks I felt I 'might' use frequently in theory.

Level 8:
Power Word Blind
Simulacrum
Spell Trigger
Pierce Shield

Comments: N/A

Level 9:
Chain Contingency
Shapechange
Wish
Time Stop

Comments: N/A

Level 10: I think we get to choose all of them right?

Well those are my picks.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 15 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...
hopefully cloak of balduran transfers over?

Not in the vanilla game, but there a number of mods, that can either allow you to import it (and find it in Chez Irenicus) or find as loot from a new and powerful enemy.

I'm personally not a fan of the Haste spell. I know it has it's uses, I just don't like it. With Tenser it's a little different. I just don't want to admit that the melee bonus offers can possibly justify shutting down all your spells. IMO that's more of a desperation cast than any Gate spell.

I would maybe suggest a slightly tweaked order in which you pick spells, because sometimes it seems you'd get important ones (IMO important that is) at a later than necessary point in the game (for example Sleep or Spell Immunity).

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:12 .

[Shadow_Leech07]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...
hopefully cloak of balduran transfers over?

Not in the vanilla game, but there a number of mods, that can either allow you to import it (and find it in Chez Irenicus) or find as loot from a new and powerful enemy.

I'm personally not a fan of the Haste spell. I know it has it's uses, I just don't like it. With Tenser it's a little different. I just don't want to admit that the melee bonus offers can possibly justify shutting down all your spells. IMO that's more of a desperation cast than any Gate spell.

I would maybe suggest a slightly tweaked order in which you pick spells, because sometimes it seems you'd get important ones (IMO important that is) at a later than necessary point in the game (for example Sleep or Spell Immunity).

That sucks on the cloak of balduran part. I did use to have the tactics component which put it in game, I guess I'll just have to place it in my build once more. Probably should put some other tactics components in there as well, the vanilla game has become kind of boring for me anyways.

I too use to not like haste for a solo sorcerer either, but in every game I can remember, I was always using it. In parties large and small. My case for the spell is that we do use it in several points in the game, and I think that definitely warrants a spot at level three.

With tensers, I'm thinking that when I transform into an Iron Golem, I want the best thaco possible. So my plan would be to load it into a sequencer and let it rip. When I solo-ed a sorceress up to Ascension, I felt that I couldn't  do anything to certain enemies in the final battle and then I quit on that game. I'm not really the best sorcerer player out there, and I wasn't when I was soloing that character several years ago. But my new plan would involve these particular differences.

p.s the spell choices were not done necessarily in the order I would pick them. They are suppose to be quite randomly organized. Some of the spells chosen I listed first because that was the first spell that came into my mind when I thought of the spell level.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 15 septembre 2010 - 01:52 .

[Larkusix]

To be fair to ncknck, the combination of Spell Trap and Projected Image as an Endless Spells Strategy is no exploit but completely legitimate.
When discussing bugs and cheese I found it useful to follow the Spells Reference, Xyx' evaluations and comments are usually spot on.

OT:
Concerning countermeasures against Maze Traps:
- Cloak of Mirroring
- Shield of Reflection
- Physical Mirror
- everything that grants immunity to spell effect Maze (213)

You can test it in the following way:
Give Korgan the Cloak of Mirroring or the Shield of Reflection or let him cast Enrage, then kick him out of the party, let your Bountyhunter lay some Maze Traps at Korgan's feet, insult Korgan and see the Maze Trap absorbed/bounced at your Bountyhunter or rendered harmless by Enrage. The Shield of Reflection will bounce all thief traps with the arrow animation, that is all thief traps except the Explosion Trap. I haven't tested it with other traps in the game that use the arrow animation, so that may be a topic for research. I have only tested the reflecting version of the Cloak of Mirroring. It would be nice if someone could test the standard, absorbing version of the Cloak of Mirroring and post the results.


Lark

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Larkusix wrote...

To be fair to ncknck, the combination of Spell Trap and Projected Image as an Endless Spells Strategy is no exploit but completely legitimate.

Care to explain?
I doubt that it was intended like this in PnP (where, from what I've heard, Project Images and Simulacrums work completely different).

[Demivrgvs]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Larkusix wrote...

To be fair to ncknck, the combination of Spell Trap and Projected Image as an Endless Spells Strategy is no exploit but completely legitimate.

Care to explain?
I doubt that it was intended like this in PnP (where, from what I've heard, Project Images and Simulacrums work completely different).

Afaik Spell Trap isn't in any official D&D book (at least I can't find it, and I've read almost each and every book from 1st to 4th edition).

Within Spell Compendium though there's a 9th lvl Abjuration spell which is identical to Spell Trap, but is called Absorption. Such spell works exactly as BG's Spell Trap, but it obviously cannot be exploited, because it can absorb only 1d4+6 spell levels, not 30! Note though that within PnP there's not a single spell removal, making all spell protections like this a lot more appealing.

PnP Project Image is indeed much different, as the image consumes caster's spells whenever it casts a spell, and cannot cast any buff on itself except Illusions. At the same time though, the image cannot be harmed, only dispelled.

Oh but don't bother me, it's obvious I don't have any "basic knowledge" of D&D or its spell system!

Modifié par Demivrgvs, 15 septembre 2010 - 04:13 .

[silenceall]

Larkusix wrote...

To be fair to ncknck, the combination of Spell Trap and Projected Image as an Endless Spells Strategy is no exploit but completely legitimate.

One man's legitimate tactic is another man's cheese is another man's exploit.  I consider the Endless Spells Strategy ingenious (by whoever came up with it) cheese rather than an exploit, and I'm not above using cheese in my game. 

The CC while paused regardless of aura status I definitely agree is an exploit and as such I wouldn't use it.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[silenceall]

My list below is based on a solo sorcerer, SoA/ToB only, with fixpack and some convenience tweaks only and no XP/level cap remover. I hate save-or-else spells that do nothing when a save is made and therefore I believe the only disabling save-or-else spell on here is Glitterdust (as an alternate) because it has the secondary advantage of being a poor-man’s True Sight. I will also use all items available in the game including the cloak (mirroring) and robe (Vecna) of cheese. I’m not going to say this is the “best” list or anything like that, but it works for me. The numbers indicate the level at which each is chosen, where applicable:
 
Magic Missile
Shield
Pro. Evil
Id
Pro. Petrification
 
Mirror Image
Blur
Knock
9 Ag Scorcher (alt: Glitterdust)
11 Melf’s AA
 
Haste (for me in opening dungeon, summons later)
Melf’s MM
9 Skull Trap
11 Dispel Magic (alt: Remove)
22 Flame Arrow
 
8 Stone Skin
9 II
11 Teleport Field
13 Minor Sequencer (alt: Spirit Armor)
23 Greater Malaison
 
10 Sunfire
11 SI
13 Spell Shield
15 Animate Dead (alt: Lower Resistance)
28 Breach (alt: Lower Resistance)
 
12 True Sight
13 Pierce Magic (alt: Death Spell if I am taking Lower Resistance)
15 Contingency
21 PfMW
30 Chain Lightning
 
14 Mordy
15 PI
17 Sequencer
22 Limited Wish
31 PftElements (alt: Ruby Ray)
 
16 ADHW
17 PW:B (alt: Pierce Shield)
19 Trigger
23 Pierce Shield (alt: Simmy)
 
18 Chain Contingency
19 Wish
The last 2 picks are out of: Spell Trap, Spellstrike, and Time Stop
 
For HLAs I usually chose in this order: IA, Dragon’s Breath, Planetar, L6, L7, L8, Energy Blades, and Comet.

[Alesia_BH]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

Here would be my theory solo sorcerer if I were to play one now

Thanks for the list Shadow_Leech007. This gives us a opportunity to refocus.

Alright theory/looking at all the spells right now

Sleep

Sleep is very helpful in BG1. However, as noted, it can be cast via wand.

Level 2:
Mirror Image
Blur
Web
Knock
Resist Fear

Comments: I like web so it's in here.With ring of freedom, it's a poor man's timestop. Blur has saves bonuses. I don't know about knock, but perhaps a sorceror needs to open some chests or doors, I don't know, maybe the spell isn't needed as much as I think. It's been quite awhile since I've soloed a sorcerer(or sorceress in my case).

I can understand your fondness for Web. I tend to pick Glitterdust if forced to choose between the two (due to the lack of immunity and ability to reveal the invisibility), but since they play different tactical roles selecting both is reasonable.

Knock and Resist Fear could be candidates for elimination- though I truthfully haven't played enough Tutu of late to render a judgement on that.

Level 3:
Dispel Magic
Skull Trap
Melf's Magic Meteors
Haste
Fireball
Comments: Tough calls in this level. I simply picked all my favorite spells aka spells I frequently use.

Like H_T, I'm not especially fond of Haste while solo. But it does have it's uses and I understand your justification.

Level 4:
Stoneskin
Greater Malison
Minor Sequencer
Spirit Armor
Teleport Field
Comments: This is also a list containing my favorite spells. Improved invisibility is actually one of my favorite level four spells, however a sorceror should not pick this spell because Ribald sells a limitless amount of the spell(ring of air control). Polymorph Self is another spell I use very often, however when I tested it with an actual mage, it seems the thaco did not improve. So perhaps wizards and sorcerors are not the best recipients of this particular spell.

Using the Air Control rings is tempting. However, you should consider that you won't be able to buff as efficiently during Improved Alacrities if you do so. This may or may not be an issue depending on your plans.


I was pleasantly surprised by the usability of Polymorph Self when I played my Transmuter and have had a fondness for it since. For a sorcerer though, it is easier to justify in terms of fun or roleplaying considerations than power.

You can get a lot of mileage out of it in BG2 though- especially if you are willing to spend money on potions to buff up the forms. Still, it would seem to complement a C/Ms abilities better than those of a Sorcerer.

I've been running Polymorph Self with my current SCS Transmuting Sorceress and have been pleased with the results so far. It is almost unbalancing in the early game actually since some of David's Spider and Bear enhancements have made it into the forms (I'm not sure if this was intended). I have a Cleric/Illusionist named Ao waiting in Irenicus's dungeon. If and when I get bored with the Sorceress game, I may see what she can do with Polymorph Self in SCS.

Tenser's Transformation

That's an interesting choice.

I'm not convinvced that running Tenser's in Iron Golem form is going to get you very far since you'll still be forced to melee with a low APR. (There are worse things to do against casters that don't lower resistance though...)

Tenser's can be put to interesting use with other forms.

Have you had any other thoughts on how you might use it?

Btw. I've never contemplated taking Tenser's with a Sorceress. However, I'll most certainly do so with my current one. I'll give you some feedback on it once I get a chance to put it into action.



Best,

A.


PS- Briefly weighing in on the Spell Trap looping issue...

As someone without any PnP background, I've always viewed it as consistent with the logic of the spell. Consequently, I'm not inclined to view it as an exploit (assuming you're using the Power Word method rather than duplicated scrolls). Nonetheless, I tend to avoid its use.

I am fond of trading spells between my casters though- it seems like something a team could workout and it is simply fun. I also enjoy turning consummable scrolls into something different by feeding them through a Spell Trap (Ex- PW:K Scroll -> Dragon's Breath). I don't do this often though.

As an aside, I don't really view any individuals view on a matter like this as being decisive. Rather, I view all opinions as data points on community norms and related debate as part of the communal norm negotiation process.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:53 .