162 réponses à ce sujet

[GeN1e]

I suspect it's not exactly what I was expected to post here ( ), but since using the abovementioned things (CC, PI+ST, CC+3*PI, etc.) is indeed possible within BG2, there's no any serious reason to argue over whether it 'legal' or not. For some people it's not, for others it is. Just yesterday I talked to a person who sincerely considered Staff of Magi's permanent invisibility power to be 100% legal, while at the same time adjusting via console Imoen's XP in Ch.4 to be an outrageous cheat (despite the fact she did have several CRE files, specifically to keep up with the party). Take it easy, there're different people in the world.

Then, my 'must have' sorc list:

Magic Missile
Identify
Pro Evil

Mirror Image
Melf Acid Arrow
Resist Fear
Web
Knock

Skull Trap
Remove Magic
Flame Arrow

Stoneskin
Malison
Imp Invisibility

SI
Breach
Chaos
Animate Dead

PFMW
Chain Lightning
Death Fog
True Sight

Mordy
Sequencer
Delayed Fireball
Finger

ADHW
Trigger
PW Blind

Timestop
CC

also antimagic removals, spell turning/trap, pro elements/energy, wherever the fit in.

Modifié par GeN1e, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Alesia_BH]

GeN1e wrote...

Delayed Fireball

This interests me. Why do you consider Delayed Blast Fireball a must? Do you tend to set up ambushes with Skull Traps and DBFs?

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 septembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[Larkusix]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Larkusix wrote...

To be fair to ncknck, the combination of Spell Trap and Projected Image as an Endless Spells Strategy is no exploit but completely legitimate.

Care to explain?

@Humanoid Taifun
Sure. Some spells clearly don't work like their PnP counterparts. That however doesn't mean they are exploits. Neither does it mean, that combining them is an exploit.

Let's have a look at the components of the endless spells strategy:

1. Spell Trap:
Getting spells back via Spell Trap is no exploit, but a legitimate function of the spell.
From the spell description:
"The spell trap protects against 30 levels of protection (i.e. ten flame arrows or five fingers of death). The spell trap can absorb any level of spell, from one to nine."
You might complain, that BG2 Spell Trap absorbs more spell levels than its PnP counterpart, but it clearly is no bug or oversight.
Whether the absorbed spells come from your enemies, your companions or your summons - such as your projected image - is irrelevant.

2. Projected Image
From the spell description:
"This copy [the projected image] can move around, it has the same hit points and can cast the same spells, however it can not make any physical attacks."
I know, that there are many complaints about Projected Image, for example the ablity of the image, to use copies of the caster's quick-slot-items is considered as cheesy. The ability of the image, to use his own copy of the caster's spell book is regarded as the primary function of the spell and no exploit. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You might argue, that it is an oversight, that Projected Image uses its own copy of the caster's spellbook , it is however to my knowledge accepted as legitimate that it does so. I have heard many people refer to it as powerful, or even over-powerful, but not as a bug. I know of no mods, that have removed this feature, again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Using legitimate functions of spells is no exploit. Combining them is no exploit either, but a clever contrivance.


@Demivrgvs

Demivrgvs wrote...
Oh but don't bother me, it's obvious I don't have any "basic knowledge" of D&D or its spell system!

I never wrote anything about your knowledge of D&D or its spell system!


@silenceall

silenceall wrote...
One man's legitimate tactic is another man's cheese is another man's exploit.  I consider the Endless Spells Strategy ingenious (by whoever came up with it) cheese rather than an exploit, and I'm not above using cheese in my game.

Afaik, Xyx, the author of the Spells Reference came up with it.



Lark

Modifié par Larkusix, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[Alesia_BH]

Larkusix wrote...

Using legitimate functions of spells is no exploit. Combining them is no exploit either, but a clever contrivance.

I view it that way as well. At the same time, I respect the right of others to see it differently.

Demivrgvs wrote...
Oh but don't bother me, it's obvious I don't have any "basic knowledge" of D&D or its spell system!

I never wrote anything about your knowledge of D&D or its spell system!

I suspect that Demivrgvs's comment was intended for someone else...


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Larkusix]

@silenceall
How many spell protection removers are you normally taking? It seems as if you are taking at least two. Pierce Magic (for the Ravager?) and either Pierce Shield, Ruby Ray or Spell Strike. What are your reasons for picking these spells?


Lark

P.S.: Alesia, look into your Inbox!

Modifié par Larkusix, 15 septembre 2010 - 06:52 .

[GeN1e]

Alesia_BH wrote...

This interests me. Why do you consider Delayed Blast Fireball a must? Do you tend to set up ambushes with Skull Traps and DBFs?

Because it's the only AoE damage spell on 7th level. There's also Prismatic Spray, but far more often than not I'd take DBF due to it's higher 'stability' of the effect and area coverage.
Plus, yes, it works as a trap, and I do indeed tend to clear the beholder lair in UD by laying a dozen of magical traps then luring them out. In modded game, that is, in vanilla the lair is hardly a challenge.

[Alesia_BH]

GeN1e wrote...

Plus, yes, it works as a trap.

I've always been aware of it's use as a trap- my Bounty Hunter collects the scrolls for precisely that reason. But it's always been an easy pass as a sorcerer and I've never really thought of taking the magical traps seriously with my mages...

Something to think about...

That's why I like reading peoples lists- it can be an interesting source of new ideas.


Thanks,

A.

Larkusix wrote...

P.S.: Alesia, look into your Inbox!

Yeah! I love mail!

[Shadow_Leech07]

Alesia_BH wrote...

Sleep

Sleep is very helpful in BG1. However, as noted, it can be cast via wand.

Fair enough, in that case I would pick Blindness

I can understand your fondness for Web. I tend to pick Glitterdust if forced to choose between the two (due to the lack of immunity and ability to reveal the invisibility), but since they play different tactical roles selecting both is reasonable.

Knock and Resist Fear could be candidates for elimination- though I truthfully haven't played enough Tutu of late to render a judgement on that.

  Glitterdust does reveal invisibility, hmmmm that is interesting. I guess then I would switch out knock for glitterdust. The reason I would pick resist fear is for dragons and demons. But perhaps this is unnessary?

I was pleasantly surprised by the usability of Polymorph Self when I played my Transmuter and have had a fondness for it since. For a sorcerer though, it is easier to justify in terms of fun or roleplaying considerations than power.

You can get a lot of mileage out of it in BG2 though- especially if you are willing to spend money on potions to buff up the forms. Still, it would seem to complement a C/Ms abilities better than those of a Sorcerer.

I've been running Polymorph Self with my current SCS Transmuting Sorceress and have been pleased with the results so far. It is almost unbalancing in the early game actually since some of David's Spider and Bear enhancements have made it into the forms (I'm not sure if this was intended). I have a Cleric/Illusionist named Ao waiting in Irenicus's dungeon. If and when I get bored with the Sorceress game, I may see what she can do with Polymorph Self in SCS.

A cleric/mage with polymorph self is much better because you can buff the spider form with DUHM, holy power, and righteous magic along with tensers(and improved haste) for what I think is 9 or 10 APR. And of course we can change the weapon slot as well.

Tenser's Transformation


That's an interesting choice.

I'm not convinvced that running Tenser's in Iron Golem form is going to get you very far since you'll still be forced to melee with a low APR. (There are worse things to do against casters that don't lower resistance though...)

Tenser's can be put to interesting use with other forms.

Have you had any other thoughts on how you might use it?

Btw. I've never contemplated taking Tenser's with a Sorceress. However, I'll most certainly do so with my current one. I'll give you some feedback on it once I get a chance to put it into action.

I see tensers as a virtual "holy power" for sorcerers. Does that justify a level 6 pick....in my mind it does. I guess that sounded extremely bias.

Briefly weighing in on the Spell Trap looping issue...

As someone without any PnP background, I've always viewed it as consistent with the logic of the spell. Consequently, I'm not inclined to view it as an exploit (assuming you're using the Power Word method rather than duplicated scrolls). Nonetheless, I tend to avoid its use.

I am fond of trading spells between my casters though- it seems like something a team could workout and it is simply fun. I also enjoy turning consummable scrolls into something different by feeding them through a Spell Trap (Ex- PW:K Scroll -> Dragon's Breath). I don't do this often though.

As an aside, I don't really view any individuals view on a matter like this as being decisive. Rather, I view all opinions as data points on community norms and related debate as part of the communal norm negotiation process.

I agree here. I tend to take the game "as is". Unless the game is literally telling me "the summoning limit is 5" ingame, I actually don't have a problem with several of the more powerful strategies. There are alot of questionable things in the game, but as I said before in this thread, we cannot know the true intent of the developers, especially when we read the manuel etc.  I tend to stack my simulacrums with potions and scrolls so that I may buff the simmy. Some may consider it 'duplicating' but I think of a simulacrum as a residual copy or a "photograph" of the spellcaster or whoever is wielding vhailor's helm. Is a copy suppose to be literally 'naked' upon creation?

The infinite spell strategy is widely known and IMO should be acceptable.

Modifié par Shadow_Leech07, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Incantatar]

@Larkusix

lets take this definition, if you don't mind

An exploit, in video games, is the use of a bug or design flaw by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

(wikipedia)

We can only speculate on many topics over the intention of the designers. But lets say they intended in a general way a sort of game balance. They also intended their game mechanics not being fully redundant. Thats abstract but lets agree on that.

When you now look at "legitimate" mechanics, lets say selling on the one hand and stealing on the other. They are on their own plausible, intended and don't break anything. Now you look at a creative way to combine them and you have a whole different story. Now suddenly the money mechanic of the whole game is broken, you can buy everything you want without being in any sense bound on what the designers thought you should be able to buy at what point.
Thats a design flaw, not a bug, because a certain combination of mechanics breaks a whole aspect of the game.

Now when you look at the spell system. It is supposed to be grounded on a 8hour limitation of ressources. Now breaking this limitation with combination of mechanics is doable but it is a design flaw because we can assume that this 8 hour limitation of ressources is a necessary mechanic aspect of balancing the whole system. I have to go deeper into D&D rules to illustrate that, but lets leave that for now.
Think of other ingame limitations of ressources. 2 powerful scrolls of protection from magic, why aren't there more? Because it would clearly break a part of the game. (Challenge of magic battle) I would think it's a good guess to say designers didn't intend there to be endless scrolls of them. And i think you need to say it's a design flaw that you are able to get them with game mechanics.

And there at least two mods which remove the item copying ability from PI (SR, aTweaks)

Sidenotes: [A part of the discussion, which is somehow there but somehow isn't is the judging of it. I think using exploits in this game is bad. But since this is a single player game i really don't care what other people do. When somebody doesn't care about certain aspects of the game and their somehow balance, that's their choice. I'm too much of a D&D player/master, always want to see the games fair even if it's just AI on the other side. It is btw a hard job for a DM to balance the game especially if you have powergamers trying to break the game in their favour. I therefore sympathize somehow with the designers and the AI here ^^ ]

Sorry for the wall of text and the kinda ot

Modifié par Incantatar, 15 septembre 2010 - 07:58 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

@Larkusix
I think I can agree with you, to some extent.
If you are in a battle and your simulacrum sends you a level 9 spell-scroll so you can cast Dragon's Breath, okay. That looks completely okay in my eyes.
But casting Spell Trap, then Simulacrum and completely refilling your spellbook, then having the Simmy expire and go into combat with a full spellbook?
Exploit. (IMO)

[Alesia_BH]

Shadow_Leech07 wrote...

A cleric/mage with polymorph self is much better because you can buff the spider form with DUHM, holy power, and righteous magic along with tensers(and improved haste) for what I think is 9 or 10 APR. And of course we can change the weapon slot as well.

Exactly. You get lovely combat stats running the Holy Triumvirate and you have more options for getting around the non-magical weapon limitation. (Though it is hard to feel comfortable with a Spiritual Hammer wielding spider...)

I'm curious to see what my Transmuting Sorceress can do though. I'm intrigued by the idea of a Sorceress who relies almost exclusively on physical attacks.

If anyone has built one, I'd be interested in seeing a book.

I see tensers as a virtual "holy power" for sorcerers. Does that justify a level 6 pick....in my mind it does. I guess that sounded extremely bias.

I see the comparison. But to my mind, Tenser's doesn't complement a Sorereress's other abilities as well as Holy Power complements those of a C/M.

Still, I am interested in seeing what a sorceress can do with it. It strikes me as an interesting avenue.


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 15 septembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Larkusix]

@Humanoid_Taifun
I see the Spell Trap Endless Spells Strategy as not more of an exploit as the Wish Endless Spell Strategy. Too powerful for everybody's taste doesn't equal to exploitive in my book.

One man's legitimate tactic is another man's cheese is another man's exploit.

It seems that we have to agree to disagree about Spell Trap Endless Spells Strategy. If you want to know what I consider as cheese resp. exploits: I usually agree with the Spells Reference on that issue.


Lark


@Incantator
I could explain here, what's wrong with your examples, but this would mean, that we would have to get even more off-topic, than we already are. If you are interested in my opinion on your arguments, I propose we use Private Messages.

Modifié par Larkusix, 15 septembre 2010 - 10:28 .

[amanasleep]

Alesia_BH wrote...

I'm curious to see what my Transmuting Sorceress can do though. I'm intrigued by the idea of a Sorceress who relies almost exclusively on physical attacks.

If anyone has built one, I'd be interested in seeing a book...

...But to my mind, Tenser's doesn't complement a Sorereress's other abilities as well as Holy Power complements those of a C/M.

Still, I am interested in seeing what a sorceress can do with it. It strikes me as an interesting avenue.

Can be fun, particularly at high levels (Maze and Imprison everybody!).  It's much more fun to do this playstyle with F/M, though, since you get the wonderful synergy between Fighter and Mage HLA's.  At lower levels, the "terrible" spells Chill Touch and Ghoul Touch are, um, surprisingly usable (I won't say good).  Although they don't strike as enchanted, they do boost thac0, and unlike other touch spells the weapon lasts for the entire duration.  Chill Touch damage gets past stoneskins (and PfMW, natch).  Ghoul Touch can actually be very effective under the right circumstances, disabling multiple enemies.  Of course, these spells are much more desirable in TuTu, but I use Ghoul Touch in BG2 all the time.

[Incantatar]

With spider form and Improved Haste you can get impressive 8apr. You can cast Strength two times beforehand for 18/00 or drink potions (items will be overridden i think). Iirc Ghoul/Chill Touch even remains polymorphed in vanilla, you could alternatively use it in a Minor Sequencer. At lvl 18 you could have a Contingency (enemy sighted) with Tenser's which should give you pretty good ThAC0. Free Action (Ring/Spell/Potion) and a Minor Sequencer 2xWeb combo would be devastating for many enemies.

Fireshields would also be a good damaging spell for melee Sorcerers.

[Incantatar]

Larkusix wrote...

It seems that we have to agree to disagree about Spell Trap Endless Spells Strategy. If you want to know what I consider as cheese resp. exploits: I usually agree with the Spells Reference on that issue.

I find it funny that you cite that site because it itself speaks of exploits regarding images. www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Stuff/Cheese.htm 

Image Exploits

I'm interested in your critique of my arguments send me a pm.

Modifié par Incantatar, 16 septembre 2010 - 06:39 .

[Larkusix]

Incantatar wrote...

Larkusix wrote...

It seems that we have to agree to disagree about Spell Trap Endless Spells Strategy. If you want to know what I consider as cheese resp. exploits: I usually agree with the Spells Reference on that issue.

I find it funny that you cite that site because it itself speaks of exploits regarding images. www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Stuff/Cheese.htm 

Image Exploits

@Incantatar

You seem to have completely misunderstood me. I blame myself for making myself not more clear.

1. I never argued, that there are no Projected Image exploits at all, I just argued, that the use of Projected Image to cast spells at your own Spell Trap is no exploit.
2. I acknowledged, that there are Projected Image exploits.
3. The Spells Reference is not identical with the Cheese Guide, it only hosts the Cheese Guide. I stated, that I usually agree with the Spells Reference, I didn't make a statement about the Cheese Guide.

I hope that cleared it up.


Keep in mind:

One man's legitimate tactic is another man's cheese is another man's exploit.

Lark

Modifié par Larkusix, 16 septembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[Incantatar]

You could clear it up by telling me how you define exploit differently or show where i made a fallacy.



"One man's legitimate tactic is another man's cheese is another man's exploit."

You forgot "is another man's cheat". I agree with the implication of relativism if we are speaking of normative judgements. I'm no moral objectivist, but i do believe in the necessity to speak the same language and follow logic. For that matter it's not impossible to find out why they disagree.

[Larkusix]

Incantatar wrote...

You could clear it up by telling me how you define exploit differently or show where i made a fallacy.

That would be OT.

Projected Image and Spell Trap

Modifié par Larkusix, 16 septembre 2010 - 11:14 .

[Alesia_BH]

amanasleep wrote...

Can be fun, particularly at high levels (Maze and Imprison everybody!).  It's much more fun to do this playstyle with F/M, though, since you get the wonderful synergy between Fighter and Mage HLA's.

This makes sense of course. The Transmuting Sorceress is unambiguously a RP/boutique build rather than a power build. A few years ago, some forum members nudged me into soloing a Transmuter through a Tactics (parts) + Ascension install. I ended up having fun with the character and felt like resurecting her but thought the Transmuter restrictions could prove problematic in my current SCS install. Turning her into a Transmuting Sorceress seemed like the best way to preserve her personality and tactical approach while making her workable.  

At lower levels, the "terrible" spells Chill Touch and Ghoul Touch are, um, surprisingly usable (I won't say good).  Although they don't strike as enchanted, they do boost thac0, and unlike other touch spells the weapon lasts for the entire duration.  Chill Touch damage gets past stoneskins (and PfMW, natch).  Ghoul Touch can actually be very effective under the right circumstances, disabling multiple enemies.  Of course, these spells are much more desirable in TuTu, but I use Ghoul Touch in BG2 all the time.

That's interesting. I've never played with the touch spells since I evaluated them in the context of SoA play and they are of limited use there. But it does make sense that they could be usable in BG1. Perhaps I'll try that sometime. Thanks.

Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 16 septembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[silenceall]

Larkusix wrote...

@silenceall
How many spell protection removers are you normally taking? It seems as if you are taking at least two. Pierce Magic (for the Ravager?) and either Pierce Shield, Ruby Ray or Spell Strike. What are your reasons for picking these spells?

Lark

My list has evolved to recently include Pierce Magic whereas I used to have Lower Resistance all the time.  But I've decided to give Skelly's a chance in lieu of Lower Resistance and therefore I think I need Pierce Magic.  I like the idea of having two summons (mordy and skellys) that have different types of immunities.  Of course the list was also previously a little different because I was trying to no-reload, so I included Spirit Armor for the save bonus (for example).  I've given up on not reloading and I'm having more fun with just trying to minimize reloads.  Much less resting required this way.  The irony is that now that I've given up on no-reloading (only in mid-Chapter 3), I haven't had to reload at all, despite a couple of close calls with stun and confusion.

Anyway, to answer your specific question, in the past I've generally NOT taken Pierce Magic, but instead Pierce Shield (yes for the Ravager) and perhaps one of the other two.  My problem, in the game and in life, is I suffer from CRS (can't remember $***) and I can never remember when to use what (e.g. dispel magic or Ruby Ray?).  Generally, I don't really use the spell protection removers and try to go around any protective spells with suitable AOEs or MelfMM (for example).  However, I find that when I do need them, they don't do what I think they should do and that's where I just get frustrated and start tossing the big stuff like Spell Strike.

[amanasleep]

Alesia_BH wrote...

That's interesting. I've never played with the touch spells since I evaluated them in the context of SoA play and they are of limited use there. But it does make sense that they could be usable in BG1. Perhaps I'll try that sometime. Thanks.

Best,

A.

Chill Touch is valuable in BG1 just for +4 Thac0.  The biggest problem in BG1 is casting it when you could be casting Sleep.

Ghoul Touch is very disabling, however.  It can have the effect of several Hold Person spells, but then so can Web.

[AzureDrag0n1]

Hmm... after reading some of these comments I wonder why Mislead is not mentioned more. I find it a very powerful spell. In particular I combo it together with Sunfire which I use to kill things like Beholders, Drow, or Mindflayers.



Or is it too powerful and that is why you do not use it?



As for that modded Teleport Field in SR I tried it out. I find it rather bad. The saving throw thing kinda ruins the spell pretty badly. The MR check already makes it far less useful against a lot of strong enemies.



It is still useful to be fair but I found myself simply not using the spell anymore after witnessing its effects. I also feel that its effects could be countered by simply having enemies switch to ranged weapons.

[Alesia_BH]

AzureDrag0n1 wrote...

Hmm... after reading some of these comments I wonder why Mislead is not mentioned more. I find it a very powerful spell.

Mislead is a powerful spell. And I can definitely see why you'd be impressed with it. It's worth considering.

The main problem I have with Mislead is that it is at its best against lesser foes and I tend to prefer spells that become more powerful in a relative sense as enemies get tougher.

That said, it simplifies so many encounters that it is a fine candidate for inclusion.

The other issue I have with Mislead is that using it to its full potential often requires me to do things that feel dirty- such as casting invisibility on it and or leaving it out of True Sight range. I'm sure that players with different tastes can get more mileage out of it than I.

As for that modded Teleport Field in SR I tried it out. I find it rather bad. The saving throw thing kinda ruins the spell pretty badly. The MR check already makes it far less useful against a lot of strong enemies.

Makes sense.


Best,

A.

Modifié par Alesia_BH, 09 octobre 2010 - 04:33 .

[Jeff W]

silenceall wrote...

My list below is based on a solo sorcerer, SoA/ToB only, with fixpack and some convenience tweaks only and no XP/level cap remover.

I know this thread is old, but I find it very informative and I wanted to comment on this list, which I think is a very good base sorcerer list.

Magic Missile
Shield
Pro. Evil
Id
Pro. Petrification

I would find a way to get Blindness and Spook in her in a solo game. You should have plenty of money for ID and those spells can be used to great effect. I realize you don't like save-or-else, but they cost very little at L1.
 

Mirror Image
Blur
Knock
9 Ag Scorcher (alt: Glitterdust)
11 Melf’s AA

L2 is tough for soloers because soloing means you want resist fear and knock, whereas a party sorcerer has no tough choices.

I would never go without Web. Because of the stacking and combos with AOE spells it is just too strong to ignore.

Ag scorcher doesn't do anything that you can't do with any other damage spells, whereas glitterdust and web fundamentally change your tactical resources. So, for solo I'd go Mirror Image (duh), Web, Knock, Resist Fear and either Melf's Acid Arrow or Glitterdust.
 

Haste (for me in opening dungeon, summons later)
Melf’s MM
9 Skull Trap
11 Dispel Magic (alt: Remove)
22 Flame Arrow

Yep, good list. I think I'd take spell thrust over flame arrow in SCS and other tactical mods where you actually have to worry about spell protections.

 
8 Stone Skin
9 II
11 Teleport Field
13 Minor Sequencer (alt: Spirit Armor)
23 Greater Malaison

Again, very good list, especially for solo. Spirit Armor rocks, but I'd just rely on scrollcasting via simulacrum/project image. I can't fault anyone for taking it, though. Ditto Polymorph Self.

Edit: For Solo, Farsight is critical since you don't have other party members to cast it.. Should be in over Minor Sequencer at L13.
 

10 Sunfire
11 SI
13 Spell Shield
15 Animate Dead (alt: Lower Resistance)
28 Breach (alt: Lower Resistance)

Good list, though I would definitely take Lower Resistance at 15 and do without Animate Dead and rely on Swords and Planetars.

I would never consider doing without Sunfire regardless of party size and composition. Maybe it's tricky to use in a party, but when you have Sunfire you don't need a party!
 

12 True Sight
13 Pierce Magic (alt: Death Spell if I am taking Lower Resistance)
15 Contingency
21 PfMW
30 Chain Lightning

Because I always take Lower Resistance at Level 5, I'd take Death Fog instead of Pierce Magic here. Death Fog has a lot more utility than Death Spell imo. It still kills summons, but it also disrupts casters and can damage liches.
 

14 Mordy
15 PI
17 Sequencer
22 Limited Wish
31 PftElements (alt: Ruby Ray)

Looks perfect.

 
16 ADHW
17 PW:B (alt: Pierce Shield)
19 Trigger
23 Pierce Shield (alt: Simmy)

Power Word Blind is great and all, but I would take Simulacrum at L17 instead. 
 

18 Chain Contingency
19 Wish
The last 2 picks are out of: Spell Trap, Spellstrike, and Time Stop
 
For HLAs I usually chose in this order: IA, Dragon’s Breath, Planetar

Looks good. I wouldn't bother with the extra spell picks though. Energy Blades would be my 4th HLA.

Modifié par Jeff W, 06 avril 2011 - 03:07 .

[silenceall]

Jeff W wrote...
I know this thread is old, but I find it very informative and I wanted to comment on this list, which I think is a very good base sorcerer list.

Thanks.  Some minor comments on your comments.

Re: Blindness, I agree.  Spook, less.  I understand I don't need ID, it's just that I hate unidentified items and I really only ever use MM, Id, ProEvil anyway, so the other choices are kinda moot.

Not a big fan of Web, and I usually do choose Glitterdust instead of Ag (wand) or Resist Fear (scrolls).

Re: Farsight: A valid choice, but I was going to try scrolls for that particular run.  Computer problems forced me to abandon the game for awhile.  Hopefully, I'll be running again next week...