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[beancounter501]

TJPags wrote...

The best defense is a good offense - and the best offense is to kill.

QFT.  Dead enemies don;t do any damage! 

As to the orginial topic.  For player builds I always like to powergame.  It is fun to build a beast of a character.  But for in game choices I always role play.

[Gimme H]

Steel Majere343 wrote...
Am i saying its impossable? no, course not, i'v seen it done multiple times. But there defenately is metagaming involved in every example i'v seen. For them to pull it off it required them to have a huge knowledge base about how combat works in the game.

This is wrong, my first playthrough, it was on hard, i was learning everything as i went along, i had no prior knowledge, and the party i used was player as rogue, who would sneak in to a room and take up a position at the back, then morrigan would open with an aoe, dog would cc the mobs she aggroed, her too of course with cone of cold, and she would also help me with the odd forcefield or crushing prison if i was having trouble with the mages/lieutenants i'd ambushed at the back, and then oghren would come in as a finisher, shattering, two handed sweeping, and hitting whatever boss was left with final blow or critical strike. it was a system that worked well - split the aggro, spam your stuns and knockdowns, and keep an eye on everything - i used pause a fair bit and micro-managed a bit, and injuries were minimal.
there's no metagaming involved in that, i didn't consult any guides, i didn't farm gear or power level, and it's all done with pretty obvious skill choices...

Modifié par Gimme H, 27 août 2010 - 02:34 .

[cJohnOne]

I hate to agree with SteelMajere but I think the tank and healer principle works good in the game. In fact I prefer using a two-handed guy as an off-tank if it's possible.

[Steel Majere343]

so i'm the protagonist now? lol. sweet. well, i know everyone has noticed why dragon age throws spirit healers at you. there are more spirit healers throughout the game than every single type of other character. there is ALWAYS some sort of one available.
second to those are sword and shield warriors.
In Origins you have alistair and wynne, both readily available from the get-go and more than willing to be your tank/healer.
in awakening you have mahri and then anders. when mahri dies you can use the respect tool to make ohgren a sword and shield warrior.
in lelianas song youv got tug and sketch. in golems you have the warrior and the golem that gets spirit healer abilities.
in witch hunt you get a spirit healer from the tower and ariane.
why all these spirit healers and sword and shield fighters?
bioware knows how similar their game is to WoW. If a healer wasn't needed (or at least expected) for the game than why does bioware keep shoveling them down my throat every DLC? lol. clearly they are integral.
Even in golems, which is supposed to be the hardest version of the game, EVEN THERE the golem gets spirit healer abilities. that, to me, says that even on the hardest difficulties, they are not going to  make you go without a spirit healer.
similar could be said about "tanks" or "defenders" as the game puts it.
face it, dragon age origins is an MMO cookie cutter.
People use the excuse that you don't have to play that way but i think thats just ignorance. You could say that about WoW also.
you could say that in WoW you don't need a healer or a tank and you probly could make it work. But was the game designed around that? not really.
and this bleeds through into why its hard to roleplay. it takes away from the replayability when the same boring wynne is being used each playthrough. yes its true, i dont HAVE to have her.
but lets be real here. the choice on whether or not to take wynne (assuming you arn't a spirit healer yourself) pretty much boils down to "do you want to enjoy the combat? or reload 60 times due to running out of pultices later?"

[TJPags]

1 healer out of what, 9 companions in Origins is throwing it at you? Especially when you can kill her when you meet her, or have her turn on you later?



People like to play tank-healer, that's fine. Neither Origins, nor Awkening, nor Golems or WH require you to play that way. And as I never have played that way, it is NOT integral to enjoy the game or to handle any battle in the game.

[Steel Majere343]

you know what i mean TJPags. not just origins but the dragon age universe as a whole. yes, the game does throw them at you. considering the ratio of how many there are in comparison to everything else.



you cant tell me you didn't notice even once how frequent spirit healers are.



unless you have none of the DLCs. but basically the ratio is like 6 to 1 in favor of spirit healers. just talking mages in general there are 2, in ALL OF THE DA UNIVERSE who are NOT spirit healers. every single other mage is. those two being morrigan and velana. besides them every other mage is a spirit healer.



but if you want to play dumb and try to say that bioware is really not favoring spirit healers, go ahead lol.

[TJPags]

I'm not playing dumb. I see 1 in 9 origin companions, 1 in 6 in Awakening, 1 in 3 in Golems, 1 in 3 in WH (I assume Finn is set that way - frankly, I didn't pay much attention to his stats). I really don't think that's throwing them at you.



And as for why they're there - first, they ARE useful, even for someone like me, who doesn't play the game that way, and second (perhaps more importantly) people who do play that way would go nuts if they weren't there.



But if you want to say Bioware throws them at you, go ahead.

[Steel Majere343]

haha touche. but still, even if you don't play that way, the emphasis is pretty darn big on that style of play.



they almost spell it out for you. Sword and shield warriors being "defenders" I.E. tanks by another name (the defender role IS tanking) i get what your saying about the individual versions of the game, but i ask you to look at the DA universe as a whole. blood mages are usefull too, but you dont see them cropping up in every DLC created. hell shapeshifters are usefull. and there is 1 of them in all of the universe as it stands.



again just because you choose to play world of warcraft with an all warrior party does not mean it is a proper party.



lol if itd please you i can dig up the interview and post a linky from youtube.



the interview talks about how one of the goals of the game was to create a single player MMO, it then goes on to talk about how since dragon age isn't an MMO it can focus on story and character development and noone has to camp around for items and such. Basically it was supposed to be an MMO with all the strengths and no weaknesses.



when the developers themselves are shouting that the goal of the game is to be like an MMO i find it difficult to see other arguements. they did make the game after all.



they didnt just throw a spirit healer into each and every DLC because they are "usefull". It is equally hard to believe that they just threw in a spirit healer to please people who "play that way".

especially since all these DLC's were planned from the start, before the game was even released to us, so when they were writing these characters they had no idea how people played because the game wasn't even out yet. but they knew how the game was designed.



in awakening for example, what is the purpose of maihri? oh ya...to tank. she could have been anything else. but she is a sword and shield warrior with taunt and the tanking works.



I wish the game WASN'T designed in an MMO fashion. It would have been way better to just take whoever i like along with me without the party having to fit through a cookie cutter (tank, healer, damage,damage or some variation thereof).



on the other hand if bioware ISN'T trying to go for the MMO playstyle then they seriously suck as game designers. If theres no healer expected why would you make a move called taunt that draws every monster around you, its basically saying "PLeASE FOCUS FIRE ON ME!", without a healer focusing all fire on one party member is a horrible idea.



the move should have just drawn the attention of one or two enemies. why give sword and shield warriors "air of insolense"? that just does the same thing except to a greater degree. even more perplexing is why have you programmed them to use taunt whenever surrounded by two or more enemies in the defender role?. if not considering MMO tactics that doesn't even make since to just run in and taunt right away. That warrior will be the first one down.



why arn't pultices more plentifull?

since this isn't an MMO they cant seriously be basing the primary source of healing on an off chance that the player decides to take a stroll into the woods to find the ingredients. if that one measly heal spell was supposed to be how you heal yourself then...well..LOL. even that combined with regeneration will get you killed. (it may last you a while. but rest assured, itll get you killed unless you've got one of the omega CC spells)

[stonehead227]

@tjpags



Love your signature

[TJPags]

Steel Majere343 wrote...

haha touche. but still, even if you don't play that way, the emphasis is pretty darn big on that style of play.

they almost spell it out for you. Sword and shield warriors being "defenders" I.E. tanks by another name (the defender role IS tanking) i get what your saying about the individual versions of the game, but i ask you to look at the DA universe as a whole. blood mages are usefull too, but you dont see them cropping up in every DLC created. hell shapeshifters are usefull. and there is 1 of them in all of the universe as it stands.

again just because you choose to play world of warcraft with an all warrior party does not mean it is a proper party.

lol if itd please you i can dig up the interview and post a linky from youtube.

the interview talks about how one of the goals of the game was to create a single player MMO, it then goes on to talk about how since dragon age isn't an MMO it can focus on story and character development and noone has to camp around for items and such. Basically it was supposed to be an MMO with all the strengths and no weaknesses.

when the developers themselves are shouting that the goal of the game is to be like an MMO i find it difficult to see other arguements. they did make the game after all.

they didnt just throw a spirit healer into each and every DLC because they are "usefull". It is equally hard to believe that they just threw in a spirit healer to please people who "play that way".
especially since all these DLC's were planned from the start, before the game was even released to us, so when they were writing these characters they had no idea how people played because the game wasn't even out yet. but they knew how the game was designed.

in awakening for example, what is the purpose of maihri? oh ya...to tank. she could have been anything else. but she is a sword and shield warrior with taunt and the tanking works.

I wish the game WASN'T designed in an MMO fashion. It would have been way better to just take whoever i like along with me without the party having to fit through a cookie cutter (tank, healer, damage,damage or some variation thereof).

on the other hand if bioware ISN'T trying to go for the MMO playstyle then they seriously suck as game designers. If theres no healer expected why would you make a move called taunt that draws every monster around you, its basically saying "PLeASE FOCUS FIRE ON ME!", without a healer focusing all fire on one party member is a horrible idea.

the move should have just drawn the attention of one or two enemies. why give sword and shield warriors "air of insolense"? that just does the same thing except to a greater degree. even more perplexing is why have you programmed them to use taunt whenever surrounded by two or more enemies in the defender role?. if not considering MMO tactics that doesn't even make since to just run in and taunt right away. That warrior will be the first one down.

why arn't pultices more plentifull?
since this isn't an MMO they cant seriously be basing the primary source of healing on an off chance that the player decides to take a stroll into the woods to find the ingredients. if that one measly heal spell was supposed to be how you heal yourself then...well..LOL. even that combined with regeneration will get you killed. (it may last you a while. but rest assured, itll get you killed unless you've got one of the omega CC spells)

lol.  Seems we sort of agree, just use different words.

I haven't seen that interview, but completely believe it's true that they wanted this set as an MMO-style RPG.  You're right - there are so many tank tactics in there, THAT'S the part they seem to throw at you.  Plus, so many people I see on these forums seems to play it that way, so clearly, it's a natural - and probably good - way to play the game.

My only point is that the game IS playable, and even on nightmare difficulty, withOUT playing that way.  Honestly, I never play this game that way.  I never use any of the tanking tactics, and when I come across a character like Mhairi, for example (who should NEVER HAVE DIED but that's another topic ) who has them set, I turn them off immediately.  When I use Wynne, her healing is really secondary to me, as I set many of her tactics to mage/archer destroying spells.  I actually use Morrigan much more often, and while I give her the healing tree, again, it's secondary, and mainly designed to be used on a frozen/paralyzed character.

I don't think I've said DA shouldn't be played with Tank/Healer/MMO strategies.  If I did, then I mispoke.  I only meant to say, it doesn't HAVE to be.  And for a 4 person party, I don't like doing it - it takes half the party and makes them useless, and doesn't leave enough people doing damage against large enemy parties, IMO.

[TJPags]

stonehead227 wrote...

@tjpags

Love your signature

Thanks. 

[mslc123]

When it comes to party compositions, really Dungeons and Dragons pioneered and developed the 4 person party in which each character has a dedicated role or job. The reason many, many developers use the system is because it's been around for 30 or more years and it works. Though I will say just like Dragon Age you can solo-play that as well, it just takes more timing and planning in both character building and battle strategies.



Also not every tank is a sword and board warrior, you see many topics on the forums about arcane warrior tanks and such. As for not seeing many blood mages, shapeshifters (hedge mages), etc is probably due to the fact that the chantry hunts down such mages and either makes them tranquil or kills them, spirit healer is pretty much the only "chantry approved" specialization a circle mage can take.



As for not being able to make enough poltices or find enough, I've never had a problem finding and picking the 15 million elfroots that sprinkle the landscape of Ferelden. Don't know what to tell you on that.

[termokanden]

mslc123 wrote...

When it comes to party compositions, really Dungeons and Dragons pioneered and developed the 4 person party in which each character has a dedicated role or job. The reason many, many developers use the system is because it's been around for 30 or more years and it works. Though I will say just like Dragon Age you can solo-play that as well, it just takes more timing and planning in both character building and battle strategies.

Well not really 4 person parties specifically.

D&D also had a lot of concepts that don't transfer over to CRPGs as well, as you can witness in the old Infinity Engine games. Some abilities are utterly useless as they are modeled over the pen and paper variants. Additionally, wizards are utterly worthless until they start getting level 3 spells.

I like how rogues also have competetive DPS in DAO instead of just being living lockpicks. Well until Awakening at least.

[termokanden]

Wizards are ridicously powerful from level 1 (sleep)

Can be used once per day. Ridiculous. Chromatic Orb was insane though later on because you could keep casting it and hope to be lucky enough for an instant kill.

What I don't understand though is what's the use of a rogue in DAO (except picking locks)

High DPS. You can also make a rogue virtually unkillable.



What I meant with my earlier comment is that they are no longer far far behind on DPS compared to fighters (/warriors).



Dex based rogues are incredibly hard to kill and are even better with combat stealth. Cunning based rogues have somewhat higher dps (not that dex based rogues have bad dps) and provide probably the best party buff in the game (Song of Courage).

[termokanden]

Damage Per Second. MMO term. They do high damage. But you have to backstab to be competetive.

[mslc123]

termokanden wrote...

Well not really 4 person parties specifically.

D&D also had a lot of concepts that don't transfer over to CRPGs as well, as you can witness in the old Infinity Engine games. Some abilities are utterly useless as they are modeled over the pen and paper variants. Additionally, wizards are utterly worthless until they start getting level 3 spells.

Don't want to derail the thread too much, but I have to respond to the wizard comment. Yes, wizards are mostly useless at lower levels though that's the trade off for being completely godly come later levels where fighters and such are starting to plateau. 

Yes many abilities / concepts don't transfer over well, though there is a equal amount that do, and I think in a general sense overall developers tend to follow the path set before them by Dungeons and Dragons and other pen and paper RPG's. 

[termokanden]

I know. That's what I meant. They start off useless then become overpowered. In pen and paper this is balanced through what you can do with high intelligence at the lower levels and all the memorization you have to do to cast spells.



As for roleplaying vs practicality, I tend to go for practicality. I can't help it, one of the major things I enjoy about CRPGs is to watch character builds and tactics work well.

[Spell Singer]

I roleplay as best one can in a single player computer game.  Which isn't a whole lot but basically it is possible to "roleplay" in dragon age.  I usually play on hard, but since the number of times I squeek by a battle are minimal I doubt you could not do the same thing under nightmare which is basically just more hit points per target.

My warrior character finished the DAO using Armour of Diligence and either a verdium Blood Axe or else the Cousland family sword with the red cliff elite shield.  He finished Awakening in the same get up with a slightly better shield and the warden's companion instead of the blood axe.  I ended up with Champion and Guardian, and 2 free specialization points.  Balanced strength and dex and load of hitpoints.

My mage didn't have an attack spell that dealt damage until I became a grey warden.  I took no specializations as I consider them all dorky-idiotic-nonsensical-imersion breaking garbage outside of Arcane Warrior and that one seems foolish.  I ended up using senior enchanter robes, have balanced magic and willpower stats and again I had no problem finishing the game.  Currently in Awakening and no plans to take any specializations.

My rogue never took any combat skills till pretty much the end of the game.  I had "pinning shot" and only that as a combat talent for most of the game.  I used a short bow or a dagger plus buckler.  Again balanced stats between dex and cunning with others raised.  I had the easiest time of all play throughs.  But given it was my 3rd well that is due to familierity.  I used the assasin and duelist specializations since they fit the character concept.

I rarely had 2 mages in a party, only a few times in my mage playthrough and only once in my warrior one when I first did the mage tower (morrigan and wynne).  Mostly my party was 2 warriors, 1 rogue, and a mage.  My Rogue playthrough however was mostly 2 rogues (me and Zev), with Dog and Morrigan.

I refused to use any spell that seemed absurdly overpowered, exploitive etc.  I had few problems.  I didn't use lots of potions of healing.  When I entered the deep roads I never went back and forth so my supplies had to last the whole journey which was a problem the first time around since there is about 4 boss encounters before the final battle.  I didn't guzzel lyrium potions either and rarely used stamina potions in awakening.

Did some battles require dropping difficulty?  Yes I did it here and there when I got annoyed too much after 5 tries or something.  Did I exploit AI stupidity?  As rarely as I could.  I employed sensible tactics and that seems to work most of the time.  I despise winning a fight because I cheated, what is the point then?

There are things I did that were exploitive with respect to making potions on the fly in the middle of the battle as I needed them for example.   But still overall I consider potion consumption a sign I am playing poorly.  Ideal situation is to win the battle with no deaths on my side and no use of potions.  As the duel at the landsmeet is well rigged I never worried about not out potioning that one.  Sure he can hit for 80 pts of damage per strike with an assault...sure...right...uh huh.

At the end of the day you can play this game as you want.  There is no real problem with playing it and keeping a character concept, not using exploits, not following the wiki's advice to make everyone of your mages into blood mages, etc.  Will it be impossible to finish the game? No.   I don't doubt it ups the difficulty level though.  But that can be adjusted on the fly in the game.