22 réponses à ce sujet

[SometimesSpring]

I've never been much of a backstab guy, but I was just wondering about it and wanted to clarify. For the purposes of this example, consider the character to be a level 40 half-orc fighter/thief with 25 strength, wielding the Staff of Striking with true grandmastery in staves and two points in two handed weapon style.

So from what I understand, the backstab is multiplied - in this case - by seven times. Now what I don't figure is in what order are the damage bonuses added.

Staff of Striking: 1d6 +9 (10-15)
Grandmastery bonus: +5
Strength bonus: +14
Weapon style bonus: +1
Backstab modifier: x5

So suppose we roll a five on the damage roll, the base damage would be 14. Now does the 14 get multilpled by five before the damage bonuses are added or after?

Before: 14 + 5 + 14 + 1 = 34 x 5 = 170
After: 14 x 5 = 70 + 5 + 14 + 1 = 90

It makes more sense that the damage bonuses get added after, since a 170 (340 critical!) backstab doesn't seem like the kind of thing I'd expect from BG2, but hell what do I know? Hoping the veterans can shed some light here.

At the same time, these factors and the answer considered, do you think the faster level progression of a fighter/thief would beat out the slower progression of a fighter/mage/thief who also gains access to inter-class beneficial mage spells? For example, having improved invisibility for quick successive backstabs or improved haste to double APR for post-backstab, or simply put Time Stop followed by Assassination/GWW. 

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Firstly, a normal thief only gets a multiplyer of 5.

Secondly, alright, let's do this.

There are two kinds of weapon damage, base damage and additional damage (usually elemental).

The calculation is as follows:

((Base damage + Proficiency bonus + item bonus, bard song etc) x backstabbing multiplyer + strength bonus ) x critical hit + additional weapon damage

[HoonDing]

You could kill a greater deity with a backstab.



Indeed, that's how Cyric killed Bhaal, and later Mystra.

[Thrar]

What is that 'weapon style bonus' you're mentioning? Does two-handed weapon style give a bonus to damage I'm not aware of?

I will disregard that one for my calculations as I'm not sure when it is applied. For the rest I take your numbers for granted, may they be accurate or not.



The mastery bonus is applied to the base damage before the multiplication, but the strength bonus afterward. For your example, this gives us:

(14 + 5) x 5 + 14 = 19 x 5 + 14 = 95 + 14 = 109.



The backstab multiplier is a very minor consideration when choosing between F/T and F/M/T imo. The latter will lag behind a bit for a while, but the difference between a x4 and x5 isn't that much.

When you're grown up (if you're playing without the XP cap), you could use improved alacrity to cast GWW and Assassination at the same time, add in Critical Strike for maximum fun. Although, of course, there are many other creative things one can do with IA.



I played F/Ts in various shapes as dual or multis a few times and enjoyed the resulting play a lot. Especially when playing in a small party (which I like), having a scout and backstabber is a great thing - give him the boots of speed once you get them and he can take out almost everything by himself as long as there are enough corners to hide behind. I wouldn't really know how to use a mage in this mix - F/Ms are great characters on their own, but I wouldn't really know how to play an M/T (for me, Jan is mostly a mage who can open locks, traps and detect illusions), much less an F/M/T.

[SometimesSpring]

 

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Firstly, a normal thief only gets a multiplyer of 5

Once again, my stupidity in editing my revision shows. I was calculating first with an assassin and then threw in the fighter/thief for the g-mastery. You notice I did calculate based on a x5 multiplier. My bad. But thanks for that formula, I've noted it down and I'm gonna run some calculations. I guess fighter/thief or fighter/mage/thief has the potential to be really powerful, with the XP cap removed of course (for 9th level spells on F/M/T).

[SometimesSpring]

Thrar wrote...

What is that 'weapon style bonus' you're mentioning? Does two-handed weapon style give a bonus to damage I'm not aware of?

One * in two handed weapon style gives you a +1 to damage when using two handed weapons, as well as the speed factor and crit hit bonuses.

Thrar wrote...

The backstab multiplier is a very minor consideration when choosing between F/T and F/M/T imo. The latter will lag behind a bit for a while, but the difference between a x4 and x5 isn't that much.
When you're grown up (if you're playing without the XP cap), you could use improved alacrity to cast GWW and Assassination at the same time, add in Critical Strike for maximum fun. Although, of course, there are many other creative things one can do with IA.

I played F/Ts in various shapes as dual or multis a few times and enjoyed the resulting play a lot. Especially when playing in a small party (which I like), having a scout and backstabber is a great thing - give him the boots of speed once you get them and he can take out almost everything by himself as long as there are enough corners to hide behind. I wouldn't really know how to use a mage in this mix - F/Ms are great characters on their own, but I wouldn't really know how to play an M/T (for me, Jan is mostly a mage who can open locks, traps and detect illusions), much less an F/M/T.

I do have the cap removed, hence my consideration of ninth-level spells and a x5 backstab modifier. I would imagine a M/T to rely on staff backstabs, augmenting Hide in Shadows with castings of Invisibility, Stoneskin, Improved Haste, and PfMW. But I suppose for that, you could just have a conjurer dual to thief at 16 or so and regain your spells for just a mill and a half XP.

The plan with the F/M/T is to use the fighter side only for the thac0 and grandmastery, plus as a reserve for when I need to really brawl. Primarily, I'd play it as a M/T in the way mentioned above. However, I've gone through the game without magic before and it does get boring without it, so that's another reason to add the mage part. =D

[Humanoid_Taifun]

FMT is a really great backstabbing option because they can use Mislead (and Improved Haste) to do 10 backstabs in a single round. Use warrior HLAs to improve the damage further if you really need to, I myself tend to run out of enemies after a couple of seconds.

The enhanced Bard song should also be noted, because the +4 on damage comes into the inner bracket, that means that you get a +20 on your backstabbing damage for every mouth singing (which is pretty nice).



But I said it before, the highest amount of backstabbing damage comes from a high level kensai dualclass.

A kensai(24)->Thief with the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, the Black Blade of Disaster in the right hand, Belm in the left hand, and self-cast (using scrolls) Improved Haste and Mislead has 10 APR, 8 of which with a weapon 2D12 (with a bonus of 13 + strength bonus (up to 12)), all of which optionally backstabs (if you're standing behind your opponent). If they are wearing helmets, then using Kai will result in:

((24 + 13) x 5 + 12) x 8 + ((10 + 13) x 5 + 12) x 2 = 1830 damage in one round.

If they're not wearing a helmet, then using Critical Strike will result in this:

((13 + 13) x 5 + 12) x 16 + ((6,5 + 13) x 5 + 12) x 4 = 2710 damage in one round.

And don't get me started on the possibilities of them holding ranged weapons, or yourself employing simulacri (or even bards)...

The only sad thing about this is that there is absolutely no enemy in the entire game that could soak these kinds of damage.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Now if only that build didn't require 8M XP before it started getting awesome...

[Joshh Avatar]

Thats pretty accurate, I used to have a Kensai/Thief that could backstab for 396 damage a hit with celestial fury... Fairly mental statistics.

Modifié par Joshh Avatar, 26 août 2010 - 03:25 .

[Chebby]

A question, HT, if I may?
Let's just say I'm interested in taking a F/T, whether multiclass or dual, what weapons proficiencies would you recommend? Bear in mind that I'm the type of player who takes big enemies on as early as possible; early-to-mid game equipment is just as important as TOB equipment, etc etc.
I always looked upon katanas fondly for the high base damage and the easily-attainable Celestial Fury, but seeing as getting a +4 weapon is preferable for things such as liches (I won't be having Carsomyr this time round, I suppose) and there is both a +4 two-handed sword and halberd in the Underdark (which is news to me; the last time I played through the game was years ago), I'm curious as to whether I should go sword/board (without the style proficiencies; missile attacks never seem to hinder me) or two-handed weapon style.
It's basically a question of usefulness throughout the campaign. I don't want to nerf my AC unless it's for a damn good reason. What do you think?

Modifié par Chebby, 26 août 2010 - 06:16 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

For backstabs, nice staves are available with a charming consistency. There is the Staff of Striking, the Staff of Rynn, the Staff of the Ram... and they all do worthy backstabs.

Why will you not have Carsomyr? Planning on taking a paladin along? If that's so, take at least the SotM for repeated backstabs and dispelling.

Since I'm really not a fan of shields in BG2, for me there isn't really much choice between sword&board and two-handed weapon fighting.
You really shouldn't worry too much about your AC. A few of points from a shield very rarely justify sacrificing the benefits of a second or a larger weapon. On the other hand, if you were to use the shield for just as long as it took you to study proper two-weapon fighting, then more power to you. (and don't worry about the liches, you'll have the Staff of Rynn for them) The only remaining question then is whether or not you want to stick to the relatively underrepresented katanas even in ToB, but that shouldn't be too much of a problem either. The best weapon for assassinations cannot be a bad choice.

So, to summarize:
staves, two handed swords (or halberds. Halberds are cool!)) and two handed weapon fighting
or staves, katanas, two-weapon fighting, scimitars

The latter is more complicated, forcing you to reequip your character before and after every backstab. The former will not require that and in the end you can drop whatever secondary weapon you've been using (be it the Sword of Grief or the Ravager or whatever), because the Staff of the Ram will most definitely deal more damage (freeing the slot for the SotM or an unenchanted staff).

Edit: There is another way of playing an FT multiclass in melee, using Jansen AdventureWear, Hardiness and the Defender of Easthaven for a good defense and a weapon of your choice (FoA?) for the offense. I usually don't bother with the flails though, because I figure that my character is a backstabber and should use backstabbing weapons (and possibly Carsomyr/SoTM).

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 26 août 2010 - 07:17 .

[Chebby]

Staves it is. A concern about the staff of magi: does it provide constant invisibility?

If so, I may avoid it. I've never liked having things massively easy.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Yes. You become visible through any of the usual means, but since you can go back into your inventory to reequip the staff (if you're casting a spell - otherwise it's easier to just left-click on it), it's possible to keep these visible times at a minimum.

[Chebby]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Yes. You become visible through any of the usual means, but since you can go back into your inventory to reequip the staff (if you're casting a spell - otherwise it's easier to just left-click on it), it's possible to keep these visible times at a minimum.

Feels like cheating, if I'm honest. I don't know. Perhaps I could just stick with the Staff of Rynn. I could also use Soul Reaver, Joril's Dagger or, heck, even Lilacor for less-important tasks. Dragon's Breath... Wave...

I have a feeling I should just focus on all twohanders and be as flexible as possible.

[Thrar]

Note that you cannot backstab with the SotM, though. Only weapons allowed to single-class thieves (without UAI) can be used for backstabbing, and the SotM is mages only.

[Metelesku]

Under weapons allowed to single-class thieves are staves as well. SotM is staff = he can backstab with it.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

The Staff of the Mages is not a weapon for thieves, so thieves cannot backstab with it.

[Metelesku]

So it can not be abused for backstabbing? So it's maybe useful for doing the tour-de-mages and strip them of all buffs.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

In a way that doesn't change much. Instead of backstabbing directly, you walk back out of the room, change your weapon, hide in shadows, walk back and do your backstab.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 27 août 2010 - 08:54 .

[Slyx]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

The Staff of the Mages is not a weapon for thieves, so thieves cannot backstab with it.

Staff of the Magi... The point you were trying to make still works though =) 

I believe UAI doesn't really open up the use of any new weapons for the thief to backstab with, other than NPC only weapons (Haer'Dalis and Mazzy's weapon for example) and perhaps a select few, if that, thief-usable alignment restricted weapons, like Neb's Nasty Cutter... which I don't think anyone high enough to have UAI (or anyone period) would wanna use that =)  Like someone above said, the weapon can't be flagged as not usable by a Thief.  The Scarlet Ninja-To is another good example of this.  It's a Monk-only scimitar proficiency weapon.  Thiefs can backstab with a scimitar-class weapon (ninja-to, scimitar, wakizashi) but can NOT backstab with the scarlet ninja-to because it's flagged as Monk only.

Modifié par Slyx, 27 août 2010 - 09:29 .

[Chebby]

Never mind, none of the sites I use for looking up items informed me of the restriction. Would be interesting for a fighter/mage, certainly.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

An FM doesn't need the constant change in invisibility (screws with Improved Invisibility or so I believe), and unless you go with 100% cheese (1 attack, immediate invisibility, 1 attack, immediate invisibility, rinse and repeat) it's useful only for dispelling protections on an enemy and perhaps as a saving throw boost. But for combat there are much better choices than a 1D6+1 with a 2 point bonus on your AC, especially if you can make yourself completely invulnerable.

[SometimesSpring]

Not to mention that Spell Trap comes in handy, so you can save at least 2 spell slots.