145 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jbblue05 wrote...
 Miranda pissed me off at the collector base she was suppose to be results at all cost Give Cerberus a chance Commander, the Cerberus CHEERLEADER and she is like destroy the base:huh: she was so out of character.

Characters change. It's called character development, and Miranda shows some doubts about TIM on the Collector Ship mission. But it happens I do agree - destroying the base is a strategic mistake, even if you must let TIM have it. Miranda would be pragmatic in this, even independently from her Cerberus loyalty. The least I expected of her was to see both sides.

But no, Bioware had to push the Paragon decision even more, as if Mass Effect wasn't already too idealistic. I found that highly annoying.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 26 août 2010 - 08:46 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
 Miranda pissed me off at the collector base she was suppose to be results at all cost Give Cerberus a chance Commander, the Cerberus CHEERLEADER and she is like destroy the base:huh: she was so out of character.

Characters change. It's called character development, and Miranda shows some doubts about TIM on the Collector Ship mission. But it happens I do agree - destroying the base is a strategic mistake, even if you must let TIM have it. Miranda would be pragmatic in this, even independently from her Cerberus loyalty. The least I expected of her was to see both sides.

But no, Bioware had to push the Paragon decision even more, as if Mass Effect wasn't already too idealistic. I found that highly annoying.

It feels like a kick in the face, as if they're telling you that you did in fact make the wrong decision.

Modifié par FieryPhoenix7, 26 août 2010 - 09:02 .

[krimesh]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
 Miranda pissed me off at the collector base she was suppose to be results at all cost Give Cerberus a chance Commander, the Cerberus CHEERLEADER and she is like destroy the base:huh: she was so out of character.

Characters change. It's called character development, and Miranda shows some doubts about TIM on the Collector Ship mission. But it happens I do agree - destroying the base is a strategic mistake, even if you must let TIM have it. Miranda would be pragmatic in this, even independently from her Cerberus loyalty. The least I expected of her was to see both sides.

But no, Bioware had to push the Paragon decision even more, as if Mass Effect wasn't already too idealistic. I found that highly annoying.

If you think its better to keep the collector base, then please do, but don't claim that it is clearly the more intelligent choice, because that is not so clear. Unless of course you are absolutely certain that your intellect is superior to mine.<_<

[Giggles_Manically]

Both sides have there pros and cons.



But in the end you take a terrible risk either way.

People who TKO it have to hope to find another way, like shep says.



People who keep it, have to hope the TIM and Cerberus "might" get something good out of it, and then dosent go onto try and do something dumb with it. ie: TAKE OVER GALAXY.



Not to spoil anything but this was an almost cut and copy of the Anvil of the Void descion in DA.

[Dean_the_Young]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
 Miranda pissed me off at the collector base she was suppose to be results at all cost Give Cerberus a chance Commander, the Cerberus CHEERLEADER and she is like destroy the base:huh: she was so out of character.

Characters change. It's called character development, and Miranda shows some doubts about TIM on the Collector Ship mission. But it happens I do agree - destroying the base is a strategic mistake, even if you must let TIM have it. Miranda would be pragmatic in this, even independently from her Cerberus loyalty. The least I expected of her was to see both sides.

But no, Bioware had to push the Paragon decision even more, as if Mass Effect wasn't already too idealistic. I found that highly annoying.

It feels like a kick in the face, as if they're telling you that you did in fact make the wrong decision.

Not really. Most of them couldn't fix their own troubled pasts and emotional issues, and they expect me to take lectures on whether I made the right decision or not?

I'll take, say, Jacob's concerns, since he's always had a working moral compass and didn't need me deciding his big life decisions for him despite himself. And Jacob's concern is valid: TIM isn't guaranteed to be 'responsible' with that tech. But even TIM irresponsible with that tech is far better than him being irresponsible without that tech and us having nothing in our pocket against the Reapers, which are far worse than anything he might do at his worst.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Yeah, I guess you have a point there, Dean. It's probably just that you can never be too sure of TIM's true intentions.

[Giggles_Manically]

I would have given it to him, up until the HUMAN DOMINANCE, Righteous Fist Thrusts, turning into an extremeist, and acting loopy in the descion scene.



Also "Cerberus is Humanity, a strong cerberus is a strong humanity" put the final nail in the coffin for me. I dont think TIM can deal with base, and even IF he dosent screw the klixen, what he can do after the reapers is not going to be good.



Also this is SCI-FI slap some phleubtobium on some ancient device at the last second and there you go.

[didymos1120]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Not to spoil anything but this was an almost cut and copy of the Anvil of the Void descion in DA.

Well similar, yes, but that choice wasn't exactly new either: 

One ring to rule them all....

And it still wasn't new when those words were written. The whole "Too dangerous for mortal men to use" concept is quite literally ancient.  Sovereign itself was basically another instance of it: everyone just thought it was a really awesome ship that could mind-screw people.  All they had to do was find a way to use it safely and.....

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 août 2010 - 12:31 .

[Mallissin]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Not to spoil anything but this was an almost cut and copy of the Anvil of the Void descion in DA.

You spoiled it. We were having fun arguing about NOTHING and then you had to toss in a rational observation.

Thanks for killing the thread.

Oh,  and I like golems.

[Dean_the_Young]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Yeah, I guess you have a point there, Dean. It's probably just that you can never be too sure of TIM's true intentions.

Of course you can. TIM admits them every time you talk to him, ask them, and sometimes when you don't.

The problem is that too many people take 'advance human interests' and 'ensure human dominance' and 'at all costs' to extremes which make no sense for Cerberus to do especially in it's own crusade.

It's like the (thankfully old) arguments that TIM was going to start making an Asari reaper, as if he (a) had the manpower to do the collecting, ( could even win a war against the Asari, © thought starting a war with the Asaris before the Reapers was a good thing for humanity, and (d) as if a single Asari Reaper would matter against all the hundreds or thousands of Reapers we likely face. People seriously argued TIM was going to do that, when he could get far more bang for his buck doing something not pointlessly evil.

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's like the (thankfully old) arguments that TIM was going to start making an Asari reaper [snip]

Wait...really?  People actually defended that idea?  Can't say I'm bummed about missing those discussions.

[Giggles_Manically]

I would not think that Cerberus is stupid, or would do something stupid with the base...

If the writers could resists making them OD on stupid pills for 10 minutes.

[Dean_the_Young]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's like the (thankfully old) arguments that TIM was going to start making an Asari reaper [snip]

Wait...really?  People actually defended that idea?  Can't say I'm bummed about missing those discussions.

Yes. They did. 'Because human dominance at all costs.'

[Giggles_Manically]

Maybe its more the rabid way in which he delivers the line, over the line itself that puts people off.



However the making a reaper argument is stupid.

Although knowing the ME writers ability they may just use it.

[snfonseka]

krimesh wrote...

As for the blue-ish stuff, scroll up, and read the first paragraph of Elana Eden's post.
About the green stuff: people read this forum because ME got them interested; let me just quote: "I show you something fantastic and you find fault." Go and make your own video game and then let us decide which one is better.

As for the Miranda's part, I don't agree with "Elana Eden's" post, because I can argue with her comments since the dialogs that have picked are not very convencing. Besides I think that "Elana" try to prove that Miranda will choose Shepard if she need to pick a side between TIM and Shepard, not that Miranda's personality start to change. According to my understanding "loyality" and "personality" is two different things.

What I was expected at the end of my Paragon Shepard playthrough, something like this from Miranda. "Shepard, I think you should have kept the base without destroying it. We could have learn something important from it. Anyway it was your call to make..not mine. "

And regarding your comments regarding my "green stuff", I am really surprised to see your comment. Because by reading some of your early posts I thought you are a person who can respect others ideas while representing your own idea in this thread. I didn't expect that kind of childish anwser from you. ME2 is a good game and I am just trying to point out what the flaws, I see in ME2.

Modifié par snfonseka, 27 août 2010 - 04:20 .

[Shadow_broker]

Miranda Didn't like seeing People going into tubes for reaper food thus didn't want the tech to survive, Simple. It had nothing to do with loyalty or personality, It was Ethics.

[snfonseka]

Elana Eden wrote...

I actually don't find it shocking that Miranda sides with you against Cerberus. If you talk to her <3 to <3(I have a femme shep so not romancing her) she expresses amazement that the mission is going so well, because Cerberus operations never go so well. I tell her that it's because it's a Shepard mission, NOT a Cerberus mission. This opens the way to question her about where she stands on certain Cerberus actions from ME1 and Jack. She admits what happened to Jack is wrong, and she also indicates that Cerberus was clueless about certain things (the rachni, the thorian).

In other conversations, you learn that part of her loyalty to Cerberus is based on them helping her to escape from her father, and them giving her a chance to prove her worth, given that she's hung up on the genetic advantages given to her. Paraphrasing Abigail Adams, but it would have been "unpardonable for her to be a blockhead," after everything Mr. Lawson did to her, so in her mind she's supposed to be elite. She's jealous that Mordin worked with equals, and that Shepard is better than she, even without the genetic tailoring. If you take the paragon options in the conversation then it makes sense for Miranda to rethink where she really stands. I think she's a cheerleader because she thinks Cerberus is all she has, and Shepard gets her to rethink that notion. She's smart, so she ought to think about why Cerberus missions consistently fail and a Shepard mission does not.

If Miranda thinks about the thorian mission, and the reaper IFF mission, and she is wise, she has to agree that giving TIM the base is a bad idea. Think about it, Cerberus sent the original reaper base team to the dead reaper, and TIM was not shocked by their indoctrination (according to the mission summary). There is nothing that stops reaper indoctrination, EXCEPT for the thorian, and Shepard was obliged to destroy the thorian because of Cerberus.

Are you refering to the following dialog or something else?

If this is the dialog, there is no mentioning about "Cerberus operations never go so well." If else please let me know, because I can't remeber any specific dialog that that you have mentioned.
Miranda: "I... wanted to apologize. I didn't fully believe you'd be up to the task. And it seems I was wrong."


I don't see any indications that Miranda believes Cerberus was clueless about certain things. Acually she has the proper idea of what the Cerberus tried to achieve, from those experiments.

Shepard: "I saw your bases years ago. You were using rachni, Thorian creepers, even husks to make your own army!"
Miranda:"The husks were already dead, the Thorian creatures were mindless, and
the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence. The husks were already dead, the Thorian creatures were mindless, and the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence. We weren't breeding an army. We were breeding expendable shock troops for high-risk scenarios. How many soldiers died in Saren's attack on Eden Prime? How many would have lived if we'd had just a dozen rachni soldiers on our side?"

Modifié par snfonseka, 27 août 2010 - 04:14 .

[Shadow_broker]

snfonseka wrote...

Elana Eden wrote...

I actually don't find it shocking that Miranda sides with you against Cerberus. If you talk to her <3 to <3(I have a femme shep so not romancing her) she expresses amazement that the mission is going so well, because Cerberus operations never go so well. I tell her that it's because it's a Shepard mission, NOT a Cerberus mission. This opens the way to question her about where she stands on certain Cerberus actions from ME1 and Jack. She admits what happened to Jack is wrong, and she also indicates that Cerberus was clueless about certain things (the rachni, the thorian).

In other conversations, you learn that part of her loyalty to Cerberus is based on them helping her to escape from her father, and them giving her a chance to prove her worth, given that she's hung up on the genetic advantages given to her. Paraphrasing Abigail Adams, but it would have been "unpardonable for her to be a blockhead," after everything Mr. Lawson did to her, so in her mind she's supposed to be elite. She's jealous that Mordin worked with equals, and that Shepard is better than she, even without the genetic tailoring. If you take the paragon options in the conversation then it makes sense for Miranda to rethink where she really stands. I think she's a cheerleader because she thinks Cerberus is all she has, and Shepard gets her to rethink that notion. She's smart, so she ought to think about why Cerberus missions consistently fail and a Shepard mission does not.

If Miranda thinks about the thorian mission, and the reaper IFF mission, and she is wise, she has to agree that giving TIM the base is a bad idea. Think about it, Cerberus sent the original reaper base team to the dead reaper, and TIM was not shocked by their indoctrination (according to the mission summary). There is nothing that stops reaper indoctrination, EXCEPT for the thorian, and Shepard was obliged to destroy the thorian because of Cerberus.

Are you refering to the following dialog or something else?

If this is the dialog, there is no mentioning about "Cerberus operations never go so well." If else please let me know, because I can't remeber any specific dialog that that you have mentioned.
Miranda: "I... wanted to apologize. I didn't fully believe you'd be up to the task. And it seems I was wrong."


I don't see any indications that Miranda believes Cerberus was clueless about certain things. Acually she has the proper idea of what the Cerberus tried to achieve, from those experiments.

Shepard: "I saw your bases years ago. You were using rachni, Thorian creepers, even husks to make your own army!"
Miranda:"The husks were already dead, the Thorian creatures were mindless, and
the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence. The husks were already dead, the Thorian creatures were mindless, and the rachni were abandoned once we understood their intelligence. We weren't breeding an army. We were breeding expendable shock troops for high-risk scenarios. How many soldiers died in Saren's attack on Eden Prime? How many would have lived if we'd had just a dozen rachni soldiers on our side?"

What are you too arguing?
Whether cerebrus was informed or not on the thorian and such, They did all expirments with decenct ethics as Miranda states.

[Admiral Awsome]

Mister Mida wrote...

It's a good example of inconsistency of your team's personalities. When TIM is making you choose on the base, people like Legion and Mordin actually endorse keeping the base intact. But when you talk to them after the mission, they **** just like the rest of the team.

Exactly, these two "renegade" characters haven't really been susceptible to "heat of the moment decisions", escpecially Legion. They have cool dimeanors and have usually been level headed, so it doesn't make sense that they endourse keeping the base and do a 180 afterwards and say it was a bad idea. Talk about inconsistencies.

jbblue05 wrote...
 Miranda pissed me off at the collector base she was suppose to be results at all cost Give Cerberus a chance Commander, the Cerberus CHEERLEADER and she is like destroy the base she was so out of character.

You're right. The die hard loyalist should not have quit without even showing us a little doubt. If someone is that loyal to a cause they don't quit that easily. If you want character developement then having her tell us that she is having second thoughts about Cerberus before she quits would have adequate.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 27 août 2010 - 04:42 .

[Shadow_broker]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's a good example of inconsistency of your team's personalities. When TIM is making you choose on the base, people like Legion and Mordin actually endorse keeping the base intact. But when you talk to them after the mission, they **** just like the rest of the team.

Exactly, these two "renegade" characters haven't really been susceptible to "heat of the moment decisions", escpecially Legion. They have cool dimeanors and have usually been level headed, so it doesn't make sense that they endourse keeping the base and do a 180 afterwards and say it was a bad idea. Talk about inconsistencies.

I can't remember who made the statement about Miranda just all of suddenly quiting if you blow it up, but they're right. The die hard loyalist should not have quit without even showing us a little doubt.

She does show doubt
"im not so sure, after seeing it in person using anything from this base seems like a betrayl"
And ultimatley leaves it up to shepard which is reasonable.
She makes a character transformation throughout the game

[Admiral Awsome]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's a good example of inconsistency of your team's personalities. When TIM is making you choose on the base, people like Legion and Mordin actually endorse keeping the base intact. But when you talk to them after the mission, they **** just like the rest of the team.

Exactly, these two "renegade" characters haven't really been susceptible to "heat of the moment decisions", escpecially Legion. They have cool dimeanors and have usually been level headed, so it doesn't make sense that they endourse keeping the base and do a 180 afterwards and say it was a bad idea. Talk about inconsistencies.

I can't remember who made the statement about Miranda just all of suddenly quiting if you blow it up, but they're right. The die hard loyalist should not have quit without even showing us a little doubt.

She does show doubt
"im not so sure, after seeing it in person using anything from this base seems like a betrayl"
And ultimatley leaves it up to shepard which is reasonable.
She makes a character transformation throughout the game

A betrayal to what? And she's having second thoughts that late in the game? This should have come a little before the suicide mission.

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 27 août 2010 - 04:48 .

[Shadow_broker]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's a good example of inconsistency of your team's personalities. When TIM is making you choose on the base, people like Legion and Mordin actually endorse keeping the base intact. But when you talk to them after the mission, they **** just like the rest of the team.

Exactly, these two "renegade" characters haven't really been susceptible to "heat of the moment decisions", escpecially Legion. They have cool dimeanors and have usually been level headed, so it doesn't make sense that they endourse keeping the base and do a 180 afterwards and say it was a bad idea. Talk about inconsistencies.

I can't remember who made the statement about Miranda just all of suddenly quiting if you blow it up, but they're right. The die hard loyalist should not have quit without even showing us a little doubt.

She does show doubt
"im not so sure, after seeing it in person using anything from this base seems like a betrayl"
And ultimatley leaves it up to shepard which is reasonable.
She makes a character transformation throughout the game

A betrayal to what? And she's having second thoughts that late in the game? This should have come a little before the suicide mission.

A betrayal to Humanity which cerebrus is spos to be looking out for most likley and what Miranda sees in cerebrus
Miranda didn't know that cerebrus was going to use collector/reaper human goo tech pre suicide mission

 or if your referring to cerebrus itself She does start to have second thoughts about cerebrus mid game
Such as giving Jacob classified info without Reporting to Illusive man first, Also showing doubt when illusive man betrayed them.

[Admiral Awsome]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's a good example of inconsistency of your team's personalities. When TIM is making you choose on the base, people like Legion and Mordin actually endorse keeping the base intact. But when you talk to them after the mission, they **** just like the rest of the team.

Exactly, these two "renegade" characters haven't really been susceptible to "heat of the moment decisions", escpecially Legion. They have cool dimeanors and have usually been level headed, so it doesn't make sense that they endourse keeping the base and do a 180 afterwards and say it was a bad idea. Talk about inconsistencies.

I can't remember who made the statement about Miranda just all of suddenly quiting if you blow it up, but they're right. The die hard loyalist should not have quit without even showing us a little doubt.

She does show doubt
"im not so sure, after seeing it in person using anything from this base seems like a betrayl"
And ultimatley leaves it up to shepard which is reasonable.
She makes a character transformation throughout the game

A betrayal to what? And she's having second thoughts that late in the game? This should have come a little before the suicide mission.

A betrayal to Humanity which cerebrus is spos to be looking out for most likley and what Miranda sees in cerebrus
Miranda didn't know that cerebrus was going to use collector/reaper human goo tech pre suicide mission

 or if your referring to cerebrus itself She does start to have second thoughts about cerebrus mid game
Such as giving Jacob classified info without Reporting to Illusive man first, Also showing doubt when illusive man betrayed them.

Cerberus hasen't betrayed humanity. How is keeping the base a betrayal? How did we betray Humanity?
The rest I'll give you . It's been a while since I've done a playthrough, but it just seems wierd for someone who's given a lifetime of service to quit over one bad assingment (I'm counting the whole mission as one assignment).

Modifié par Admiral Awsome, 27 août 2010 - 05:25 .

[AresXX7]

from what I've read, in regards to the Bhelen/Harrowmont analogy, I wonder if Bioware is playing a mindgame with us

if you're making the Paragon choice - will you listen to those who say hang on to the base (prior to talking to the crew members afterwards) or follow your own morals

if it's the Renegade choice - will you stick to your guns, if others disagree, after it's all said & done

either way, I have seen them play with our Paragon choice(s) in ME1, with the Homecoming sidequest - ignore the "bigger picture" by getting caught up in the moment, to give the man his wife's body back, only to hear a newscast say it hampered the Alliance in keeping up with the Geth, technology-wise in weapon developments in ME2

or, I could just be reading it all wrong

didymos1120 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
It's like the (thankfully old) arguments that TIM was going to start making an Asari reaper [snip]

Wait...really?  People actually defended that idea?  Can't say I'm bummed about missing those discussions.

LOL, for some reason, that made me think of this



 

Modifié par AriesXX7, 27 août 2010 - 06:08 .

[Shadow_broker]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Shadow_broker wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's a good example of inconsistency of your team's personalities. When TIM is making you choose on the base, people like Legion and Mordin actually endorse keeping the base intact. But when you talk to them after the mission, they **** just like the rest of the team.

Exactly, these two "renegade" characters haven't really been susceptible to "heat of the moment decisions", escpecially Legion. They have cool dimeanors and have usually been level headed, so it doesn't make sense that they endourse keeping the base and do a 180 afterwards and say it was a bad idea. Talk about inconsistencies.

I can't remember who made the statement about Miranda just all of suddenly quiting if you blow it up, but they're right. The die hard loyalist should not have quit without even showing us a little doubt.

She does show doubt
"im not so sure, after seeing it in person using anything from this base seems like a betrayl"
And ultimatley leaves it up to shepard which is reasonable.
She makes a character transformation throughout the game

A betrayal to what? And she's having second thoughts that late in the game? This should have come a little before the suicide mission.

A betrayal to Humanity which cerebrus is spos to be looking out for most likley and what Miranda sees in cerebrus
Miranda didn't know that cerebrus was going to use collector/reaper human goo tech pre suicide mission

 or if your referring to cerebrus itself She does start to have second thoughts about cerebrus mid game
Such as giving Jacob classified info without Reporting to Illusive man first, Also showing doubt when illusive man betrayed them.

Cerberus hasen't betrayed humanity. How is keeping the base a betrayal? How did we betray Humanity?
The rest I'll give you . It's been a while since I've done a playthrough, but it just seems wierd for someone who's given a lifetime of service to quit over one bad assingment (I'm counting the whole mission as one assignment).

It's a betrayal against humanity due to the tech Being made from thousands of innocent human colonist and Cerebrus may be willing to go even further.
Miranda Joins cerebrus out of Humanitys best Intrest, It's never clearly stated that she wants Humans to be on the top of the pyramid(although it's possible she could think like that). She compares it More to STG and thinks humanity simply dosen't get the respect it deserves. So it's possible that she may even think think that cerebrus is going to far by taking the tech for possible use against aliens other than reapers (although we really don't know due to post suicide mission dialagoue being scarce)

I'd also like to point out she only quits if shepard destroys the base and really would have to choose between quitting cerebrus or trying to stop shepard which is a serious conflict of intrest (she spent two years rebuilding and studying him Lazarus was her "baby" as jacob states It's very hard to kill your Baby on command)