145 réponses à ce sujet

[AresXX7]

Admiral Awsome wrote...

The rest I'll give you . It's been a while since I've done a playthrough, but it just seems wierd for someone who's given a lifetime of service to quit over one bad assingment (I'm counting the whole mission as one assignment).

I wouldn't go so far as to say a lifetime of service
she joined Cerberus because they were protecting her sister and they "appreciated" her genetic modifications, by making her feel important
I think Shep opened her eyes to the "bad" side of Cerberus, sort to speak, over the course of events/conversations

[snfonseka]

Shadow_broker wrote...

Admiral Awsome wrote...

Mister Mida wrote...

It's a good example of inconsistency of your team's personalities. When TIM is making you choose on the base, people like Legion and Mordin actually endorse keeping the base intact. But when you talk to them after the mission, they **** just like the rest of the team.

Exactly, these two "renegade" characters haven't really been susceptible to "heat of the moment decisions", escpecially Legion. They have cool dimeanors and have usually been level headed, so it doesn't make sense that they endourse keeping the base and do a 180 afterwards and say it was a bad idea. Talk about inconsistencies.

I can't remember who made the statement about Miranda just all of suddenly quiting if you blow it up, but they're right. The die hard loyalist should not have quit without even showing us a little doubt.

She does show doubt
"im not so sure, after seeing it in person using anything from this base seems like a betrayl"
And ultimatley leaves it up to shepard which is reasonable.
She makes a character transformation throughout the game

In which part of the game this has shown? If you are refering to the "Elana Eden"s post... then there is no proper evidence for that, according to my understanding. If else, please comment.

[Dark Penitant]

Personally I agree with the comment a few pages ago that ME was too idealistic. Seriously, it is almost as bad as playing KOTOR on the light side. While I was a bit dissapointed with the lack of important paragon/renegade decisions in ME2 I find some of the actions that are paragon are far too trusting and inneffective. For instance, during Samara's recruitment, there is an Asari Merc who begs for her life. The paragon choice is to spare her, the renegade inturrupt is to execute her before she can speak. In this case, the paragon choice not only turns out to be wrong in the end (she killed that volus merchant), but is also incredibly stupid given the context. for instance, right after a large firefight with lots of people with lots of guns trying to kill you, you enter a room and see a mercenary. So instead of thinking its an ambush, which in that circumstance it probably is, you let her get up, you dont search her, and you let her talk to you. I think you even put your gun away! (i think so, but i havent played ME2 in a month). This showcases how a paragon shepard is frequently too trusting and naive. 

Also, I  was actually suprised that everyone (in game and otherwise) is so adamantly against trusting Cerberus. I mean, say what you will about Cerberus and The Illusive Man, but it is always evident that they really do have humanity's best interests in mind. Not only did they rebuild you, but they are the only ones trying to save the colonists, and despite their experiments, they are not 'evil'. Nor, as many also say, do they hate aliens. If you talk to Kelly, she will tell you that while Cerberus believes in the advancement of humanity, they are not trying to put themselves on top of the pyramid. I think that they definately do match a Renegade Shepard, but I also think that, really, playing through as a paragon shepard is really not the most realistic way to act under those circumstances.
Quoting RvB: "When faced with extinction, every alternative is preferable!'

Finally, I think that in such a conflict, you would do whatever it takes to save humanity, right? Well if that is true, than why, oh why, would you throw away your potentially greatest weapon agains the reapers, and also throw away the help of what is probably one of the most powerful organizations in the universe?! Not to mention the only one that believes the reaper threat. In fact, I think that Cerberus is the only organization with both the resources, and the morals to effectively use the collector base.

In conclusion, I believe that a Paragon Shepard is too trusting and idealistic; Cerberus is more trustworthy than many think, and at the very least is exceedingly pragmatic; and throwing away the base and Cerberus' backing is just stupid. Cerberus is a ruthuless organization that will do what needs to be done. A Renegade Shepard is the same. And in any war, past, presant, and future, the ability to get the job done is always what has won them.

Modifié par Dark Penitant, 27 août 2010 - 07:32 .

[Dark Penitant]

sorry, double post

Modifié par Dark Penitant, 27 août 2010 - 07:32 .

[snfonseka]

Dark Penitant wrote...

Personally I agree with the comment a few pages ago that ME was too idealistic. Seriously, it is almost as bad as playing KOTOR on the light side. While I was a bit dissapointed with the lack of important paragon/renegade decisions in ME2 I find some of the actions that are paragon are far too trusting and inneffective. For instance, during Samara's recruitment, there is an Asari Merc who begs for her life....

^This.

Modifié par snfonseka, 27 août 2010 - 10:26 .

[krimesh]

Dark Penitant wrote...

Personally I agree with the comment a few pages ago that ME was too idealistic. Seriously, it is almost as bad as playing KOTOR on the light side. While I was a bit dissapointed with the lack of important paragon/renegade decisions in ME2 I find some of the actions that are paragon are far too trusting and inneffective. For instance, during Samara's recruitment, there is an Asari Merc who begs for her life. The paragon choice is to spare her, the renegade inturrupt is to execute her before she can speak. In this case, the paragon choice not only turns out to be wrong in the end (she killed that volus merchant), but is also incredibly stupid given the context. for instance, right after a large firefight with lots of people with lots of guns trying to kill you, you enter a room and see a mercenary. So instead of thinking its an ambush, which in that circumstance it probably is, you let her get up, you dont search her, and you let her talk to you. I think you even put your gun away! (i think so, but i havent played ME2 in a month). This showcases how a paragon shepard is frequently too trusting and naive. 

Aaaand thats one way of seeing it; the other one is that it is always better not too shoot a stupid girl in the face when in doubt. If it were a trap.. which it honestly doesn't look like, then well.. as Obi-Wan used to say " next step, spring the trap". In context with the fact that TIM is gonna send Shepard into a Collector trap one or two missions later, this ain't a big deal. You may not believe it, but there are quite pragmatic reasons to be a paragon in ME - which it is not my intention to explain, not now anyway - unlike KOTOR, where there is nothing much except the hanging sword of the dark side.
I do have to say, that I have the overall feeling that  Shepard's actual paragon dialog is to soft and fluffy in places (without having a specific example though). Just because you choose not to shoot everyone who could possibly be a threat, doesn't mean you have to sound like a teddy bear. Actually it might be that, if the paragon choices were argued better by Shepard, more people would see the point in them - there are good reasons for paragon choices, but Shepard mostly comes up with "this isn't right".

[Dark Penitant]

^^
very good point actually, especially about just gunning down the girl. Its not that i like killing her (though the cutscene is great), it is that i find that letting her go is utterly insane. as for the fluffy diologue, I absolutely hate the way Shepard sounds when playing paragon. Renegade sounds so much more ruthless, unlike KOTOR, where you're you're either a total tool and never accept a reward, or are totally evil. It really annoyed me (especially in KOTOR 2) that you practically had to take a side.

Anyway, back to ME2, you are right that the example I used isnt the best, especially since shooting the girl isnt the right thing to do. Its a smart move, but a better one would be to incapacitate her upon her surrender, then leave her there. Seriously, she would be alive, and she would probable be apprehended by the authorities. Sadly, that option isnt available, which is unfortunate because it would really provide a viable and intelligent alternative to just letting her run around, which, I'm sorry, is just stupid in a large firefight; or shooting her, which seems a bit, preemptive. Not extreme, but defenately pre-emptive.

(sorry about crappy spelling, its 5:30 am here and I'm tired)

Modifié par Dark Penitant, 27 août 2010 - 09:32 .

[didymos1120]

Dark Penitant wrote...
If you talk to Kelly, she will tell you that while Cerberus believes in the advancement of humanity, they are not trying to put themselves on top of the pyramid. I think that they definately do match a Renegade Shepard, but I also think that, really,

All that tells you is what Kelly believes (or wants to) about what Cerberus believes.  If you talk to Miranda, she'll complain that "too many join us out of simple xenophobia", and it's just a fact that some Cerberus folk are anti-alien,  even extremely so.  The character Kai Leng in the Redemption novel is a good example, typically reacting as he does to non-humans with contempt and/or disgust (though he's usually careful not to show it).  If nothing else, TIM is perfectly willing to exploit such people and let them think their preferred agenda is his as well.

[snfonseka]

Dark Penitant wrote...

^^
very good point actually, especially about just gunning down the girl. Its not that i like killing her (though the cutscene is great), it is that i find that letting her go is utterly insane. as for the fluffy diologue, I absolutely hate the way Shepard sounds when playing paragon. Renegade sounds so much more ruthless, unlike KOTOR, where you're you're either a total tool and never accept a reward, or are totally evil. It really annoyed me (especially in KOTOR 2) that you practically had to take a side.

Anyway, back to ME2, you are right that the example I used isnt the best, especially since shooting the girl isnt the right thing to do. Its a smart move, but a better one would be to incapacitate her upon her surrender, then leave her there. Seriously, she would be alive, and she would probable be apprehended by the authorities. Sadly, that option isnt available, which is unfortunate because it would really provide a viable and intelligent alternative to just letting her run around, which, I'm sorry, is just stupid in a large firefight; or shooting her, which seems a bit, preemptive. Not extreme, but defenately pre-emptive.

(sorry about crappy spelling, its 5:30 am here and I'm tired)

This is not the first time that "Paragon Shepard" let the criminals go. That's kind of stupid, because who wants to trust criminals?...  Thats why my "canon" Shepard is a Paragade...

[AresXX7]

snfonseka wrote...

Dark Penitant wrote...

^^
very good point actually, especially about just gunning down the girl. Its not that i like killing her (though the cutscene is great), it is that i find that letting her go is utterly insane. as for the fluffy diologue, I absolutely hate the way Shepard sounds when playing paragon. Renegade sounds so much more ruthless, unlike KOTOR, where you're you're either a total tool and never accept a reward, or are totally evil. It really annoyed me (especially in KOTOR 2) that you practically had to take a side.

Anyway, back to ME2, you are right that the example I used isnt the best, especially since shooting the girl isnt the right thing to do. Its a smart move, but a better one would be to incapacitate her upon her surrender, then leave her there. Seriously, she would be alive, and she would probable be apprehended by the authorities. Sadly, that option isnt available, which is unfortunate because it would really provide a viable and intelligent alternative to just letting her run around, which, I'm sorry, is just stupid in a large firefight; or shooting her, which seems a bit, preemptive. Not extreme, but defenately pre-emptive.

(sorry about crappy spelling, its 5:30 am here and I'm tired)

This is not the first time that "Paragon Shepard" let the criminals go. That's kind of stupid, because who wants to trust criminals?...  Thats why my "canon" Shepard is a Paragade...

couldn't agree more
which is why I've switched from "pure" paragon to Paragade, after my first few playthroughs

[Kappa Neko]

didymos1120 wrote...

Dark Penitant wrote...
If you talk to Kelly, she will tell you that while Cerberus believes in the advancement of humanity, they are not trying to put themselves on top of the pyramid. I think that they definately do match a Renegade Shepard, but I also think that, really,

All that tells you is what Kelly believes (or wants to) about what Cerberus believes.  If you talk to Miranda, she'll complain that "too many join us out of simple xenophobia", and it's just a fact that some Cerberus folk are anti-alien,  even extremely so.  The character Kai Leng in the Redemption novel is a good example, typically reacting as he does to non-humans with contempt and/or disgust (though he's usually careful not to show it).  If nothing else, TIM is perfectly willing to exploit such people and let them think their preferred agenda is his as well.

Yupp, Kelly might be so naive but TIM very bluntly tells you that he is going to use the information gained from the base to make mankind rule the universe. Sure, Cerberus is all about mankind's best interest. But to me their reasoning is no different to our imperialism. At least that's what comes to my mind when I think of Cerberus and TIM.
My paragon Shep kept the base on my first playthrough. lol. So I guess I was just as naive as Kelly to think TIM would use the information only for the purpose of stopping the reapers. So my squad mates were right to condemn my decision. Made me correct my mistake.
But I, too, thought it strange that EVERYBODY thought keeping the base was a mistake. Or at least giving it to TIM was a bad move. You'd think one or two of my squad would support TIM...
I seriously doubt that keeping or destroying the base will have any real consequences in ME3. BW can't have you fail because of something you did in the previous game! Imagine you've played 40 hours of ME3 only to find out TIM did something horrible and now everybody's going to die after all! Can't do that. Only thing they could do is  add an option for a decision at the end of ME3, like actually having mankind rule the galaxy once the reapers are destroyed. Yes, joining the dark side, muahaha.

[krimesh]

Dark Penitant wrote...

^^
very good point actually, especially about just gunning down the girl. Its not that i like killing her (though the cutscene is great), it is that i find that letting her go is utterly insane. as for the fluffy diologue, I absolutely hate the way Shepard sounds when playing paragon. Renegade sounds so much more ruthless, unlike KOTOR, where you're you're either a total tool and never accept a reward, or are totally evil. It really annoyed me (especially in KOTOR 2) that you practically had to take a side.

Anyway, back to ME2, you are right that the example I used isnt the best, especially since shooting the girl isnt the right thing to do. Its a smart move, but a better one would be to incapacitate her upon her surrender, then leave her there. Seriously, she would be alive, and she would probable be apprehended by the authorities. Sadly, that option isnt available, which is unfortunate because it would really provide a viable and intelligent alternative to just letting her run around, which, I'm sorry, is just stupid in a large firefight; or shooting her, which seems a bit, preemptive. Not extreme, but defenately pre-emptive.

(sorry about crappy spelling, its 5:30 am here and I'm tired)

Hah, I was so not expecting anyone pro-cerberus to agree with me on something - it hardly ever happens. This is a great feeling, let me tell you... Anyway, when I play ME I make decision the way I would if I'd really be there. This results mostly in paragon choices, but I do kill Cathka and I have Mordin keep the Genophage research for example. I destroy the collector base, though. Thing is, that I don't base my decisions on ideas like "unethical", but rather on what I think is more effective in the long run. And I have spent a long time pondering those decisions on a logical basis. Thus I am always pissed off when people claim that paragon choices are plain stupid.

Take Cathka for example. Killing him is a cold-blooded and cruel murder. That does not matter though, because at that point you are leading your team into a war, to fight an army with 4 people and you don't even know who the 4th guy is yet. If you have such a good way to make a dent into your enemies air-support, it would be irresponsible to put your team at an additional risk, just because you feel sorry for poor Cathka (who is only planning the attacks. Having children with toy armor running into a sniper-trap that is.)

The collector base is a very controversial topic. Some argue that blowing it up is a waste, based on stupid sentiment. Others say that the problem is giving it to The Illusive Man. What some of your squad-mates say, and what I actually agree with, is that it is not so clear that anyone is able to deal with such technology yet. Actually the Krogan are a good example of what I am talking about. The Salarians gave them tech they were not ready for, and it all ended in a nuclear winter. As a reminder, the hole point of Shepard's fight against the reapers is to save the galaxy, that is to bring it back to something vaguely like what it was before the clash with the reapers. Using technology like the genophage, or whatever might be salvaged from the collector base, might result in solving an immediate crisis, but at the cost of the galaxy's health. Its the blood-magic of ME. So decisions like saving or destroying the base are, to me, about finding the balance between winning the war, and retaining as much as possible of what I was trying to save in the first place.
What exactly this balance is, is easily offset by any visions people might have about what the galaxy should actually be like, so it's not a surprise we keep kicking each other's vitals about it.

EDIT: Actually let me add a section about Shepard letting criminals go. As far as I am concerned, there is a reason that various police officers are not Spectres. A Spectre's job is to stop civil wars, and other galactic threats. This is what a Spectre stands above the law for. A police officer is subject to many rules, which are in place to protect the criminals that officer is meant to deal with.
In ME, the renegade decisions correspond to Shepard putting him/herself above those laws and make him/her police, judge and executioner all at once. This is renegade because its using the Spectre-status for something it is not meant for.
The paragon choices respect that a Spectre's powers are not in place to deal with ordinary criminals.  Shepard may choose to assist the police, as on Illum, but he/she has no obligation to stop to arrest them and hand them over to the police, because a Spectre has more important things to do. In any case a Spectre should not use his authority to execute suspected criminals just because there is not enough time to process them properly; in this case they are simply not Shepard's problem.

Modifié par krimesh, 27 août 2010 - 11:35 .

[Ieldra]

krimesh wrote...
The collector base is a very controversial topic. Some argue that blowing it up is a waste, based on stupid sentiment. Others say that the problem is giving it to The Illusive Man. What some of your squad-mates say, and what I actually agree with, is that it is not so clear that anyone is able to deal with such technology yet. Actually the Krogan are a good example of what I am talking about. The Salarians gave them tech they were not ready for, and it all ended in a nuclear winter. As a reminder, the hole point of Shepard's fight against the reapers is to save the galaxy, that is to bring it back to something vaguely like what it was before the clash with the reapers.

Actually, that's not my Shepard's goal at all. Apart from saving the lives of as many species/people as he can, it's his goal that the galaxy after the Reaper won't be held back by stagnation any more. The type of stagnation Aethyta complains about when she describes how the asari council reacted to her suggestion to built new mass portals. Therefore....

Using technology like the genophage, or whatever might be salvaged from the collector base, might result in solving an immediate crisis, but at the cost of the galaxy's health. Its the blood-magic of ME. So decisions like saving or destroying the base are, to me, about finding the balance between winning the war, and retaining as much as possible of what I was trying to save in the first place.
What exactly this balance is, is easily offset by any visions people might have about what the galaxy should actually be like, so it's not a surprise we keep kicking each other's vitals about it.

...exactly this. And it's not that I'd say all Paragon decisions are stupid. Some are, definitely, but not all. But too many result in wasted opportinuties, and what's worse, the game actually paints wasting these opportunities as desirable. That's what I can't stand. The game seems to take a stance for stagnation and cultural conservatism.

And what's more, Renegade decisions never have any benefit. Renegade is supposed to be about pragmatism over idealism, but the important Renegade decisions *always* make things worse where they often shouldn't. In a world like that, there's no point in making Renegade decisions because if they don't have desirable results, they're not pragmatic. That's why I say the game is too idealistic.

As for letting the merc go on Samara's recruitment mission: if you talk to Pitne For enough beforehand, he will tell you that every member of this Eclipse group earns her uniform by killing someone, just as the datapad later confirms. So if she's wearing the uniform, she's a murderer. That's why I usually don't hesitate to take the Renegade decision here. It would be nice to be able to hand her over to the detective, but as so often, we're shoehorned into a fork with two less desirable alternatives.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 août 2010 - 11:59 .

[Ieldra]

didymos1120 wrote...

One ring to rule them all....

And it still wasn't new when those words were written. The whole "Too dangerous for mortal men to use" concept is quite literally ancient.  Sovereign itself was basically another instance of it: everyone just thought it was a really awesome ship that could mind-screw people.  All they had to do was find a way to use it safely and.....

I don't believe in "Things Man Was Not Meant To Know". I think that's ideological bullsh*t. And while I appreciate that the game lets us decide in accordance with what we think is best, I very much resent that *everyone* on my team gives me what I believe is utter crap after I make the decision I think is best. And that's not even considering the strategtic implications, where I would expect at least the pragmatists on the team be consistent and believable.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 août 2010 - 12:07 .

[didymos1120]

Kappa Neko wrote...
 You'd think one or two of my squad would support TIM...

Well, none of the aliens should be expected to, and Legion's just not interested in that aspect of the choice, so that leaves humans.  Jacob says from minute one that he has a lot of problems with Cerberus, and flat out states he only supports TIM on a highly conditional basis.  On the other hand, he really isn't that bothered by it, and seems to mostly treat it as a "Well, that's a problem for another day" sort of thing.  Kasumi and Zaeed don't have anything to say simply because they don't behave like other squaddies.  You know what Kasumi thinks, despite that, as she tells you to blow it up if you have her in the squad.  Zaeed?  Who knows.  I don't think he likes TIM, but I don't think he particularly cares either.  Jack?  Uh, no, for obvious reasons.  That leaves Miranda as the only genuine candidate for being a supporter, meaning it comes down to how plausible you find her rejection of the "Keep The Base" idea. 

[Markinator_123]

Here is another stupid paragon choice (dialogue wise)



Warden Kuril: "I'm going to sell you! Surrender"

Pure Paragon Shepard: "Can we negotiate?"

Me: *facepalm*

[didymos1120]

Markinator_123 wrote...

Here is another stupid paragon choice (dialogue wise)

Warden Kuril: "I'm going to sell you! Surrender"
Pure Paragon Shepard: "Can we negotiate?"
Me: *facepalm*

Well, no.  He just told you it was about the cash, so why not see if he's open to a counter-offer?  If it doesn't work, you're no worse off than you already were.  I prefer telling him to pound sand myself, but there's nothing inherently stupid about trying to buy off the dude who's trying to cash in.  Doesn't mean you'd have let him get away with it had he fallen for it, just that you wouldn't have had to shoot your way out to get the opportunity to nail him.

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 août 2010 - 01:25 .

[krimesh]

You are right. But a more aggressive reply with the same content might do too, plus you wouldn't feel like an idiot. It's not what a paragon says, it's how it's said.

Modifié par krimesh, 27 août 2010 - 01:46 .

[PsyrenY]

didymos1120 wrote...

Well, no.  He just told you it was about the cash, so why not see if he's open to a counter-offer?  If it doesn't work, you're no worse off than you already were.  I prefer telling him to pound sand myself, but there's nothing inherently stupid about trying to buy off the dude who's trying to cash in.  Doesn't mean you'd have let him get away with it had he fallen for it, just that you wouldn't have had to shoot your way out to get the opportunity to nail him.

The trouble with that logic is that in ME, buying your way out of a dilemma is usually the neutral way, not the Paragon one. (e.g. buying the Hanar's preaching permit for him in ME1 instead of persuading either party results in no morality gain.)

Markinator_123 wrote...

Here is another stupid paragon choice (dialogue wise)

Warden Kuril: "I'm going to sell you! Surrender"
Pure Paragon Shepard: "Can we negotiate?"
Me: *facepalm*

I agree, and I never take that one.

The so-called "Renegade" option in that dialogue is actually the Paragon one. "You go on about how you're keeping the galaxy safe, but you're just a common criminal!" Have some free guilt with your fries, that's the Paragon way.

The "neutral" response is the Renegade one. "Like hell!"

Personally, I think Bioware just messed those up.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 27 août 2010 - 01:47 .

[krimesh]

You can actually say "Like hell!" ? That is so my response...

[didymos1120]

Optimystic_X wrote...


The trouble with that logic is that in ME, buying your way out of a dilemma is usually the neutral way, not the Paragon one. (e.g. buying the Hanar's preaching permit for him in ME1 instead of persuading either party results in no morality gain.)

Usually, but:

a. It's not like they haven't ignored the dialogue-wheel conventions before.  Hell, sometimes things will swap places after one is selected (though that's usually a left-side phenomenon)

and:

b.  In this instance, trying to buy him off is basically the only potential way to get out of there without starting to shoot people, therefore it's as paragon as you're gonna get in that situation, and if you're a pure paragon you have to at least try, even if you have zero expectation of success.  Neutral is just flat refusal to cooperate, and  renegade (which requires talking to him about why he started Purgatory) is telling him he's a hypocritical bastard and pissing him off.

It only becomes rank stupidity if you've decided your character actually believes they'll succeed in the attempt.  That's purely up to you though.

Modifié par didymos1120, 27 août 2010 - 01:58 .

[PsyrenY]

didymos1120 wrote...

b.  In this instance, trying to buy him off is basically the only potential way to get out of there without starting to shoot people, therefore it's as paragon as you're gonna get in that situation, and if you're a pure paragon you have to at least try, even if you have zero expectation of success.

I couldn't disagree more. Offering to pay him off is just rewarding him for his slavery/extortion operation. I agree that Paragons don't whip out the firearms until it is necessary, but this is one instance where they would.

And it makes sense too that the true Paragon option would only appear once you question him about Purgatory. Until you talk to him and find out about the whole "release the prisoners back to their home planet without warning" racket, you and your squad consider Purgatory to be a legitimate prison. So questioning Kuril plants the seeds of doubt in Shepard's mind, and his attempt to illegally lock Shepard up seals the deal.

Hell, even SAMARA - the ultimate Paragon - will kill people that try to unjustly lock her up. QED. And you're not even actively trying to kill people, just pick up your package and leave - anyone that attacks you gets what they deserve.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 27 août 2010 - 02:54 .

[krimesh]

     ^^ 

***PARAGON ANSWER:***
"Well that one you got wrong... paragon and renegade points are defined by what they measure: your credibility when you say certain things. If someone is ready to negotiate in even such a situation as Kuril puts you in, people are more likely to believe that person, if he/she says something idealistic. So trying to negotiate is in fact something which would make you look more paragon. (Except, if people think that you are just being naive that is.)
Samara is no pure paragon. She follows a code. A pure paragon does not kill helpless people lying on the floor in front of them."

***RENEGADE ANSWER:***
"Stop QEDing things as if you just proved something by some legitimate proving method, you idiot! You can't prove a positive by example. If anything deserves a QED, then it is the last paragon line."

P.S.: I did not mean to insult anyone; adding a renegade response simply seemed to be a good idea, given our topic.

Modifié par krimesh, 27 août 2010 - 03:33 .

[inversevideo]

So many issues so little time, but good thoughts all around.

My two cents, ME1 it just seemed natural, to me, to be Paragon, and my Shep was 100% Paragon.
ME2 I find my responses mark my Shep as Renegon, and that play style just seemed to fit in with being in the lawless Terminus Systems.

Elnora, oh wow! Is it just me? Or did no one talk to Pitne For, who told you that each Eclipse sister earns her uniform by making a kill? Did no one else notice, just before you are presented with an interrupt, that Elnora is reaching behind her back for a Sub-Machine gun? Sorry, my Shep's opinion of mercs is pretty low, as in shoot first and let the creator sort it all out.

Kuril, I agree it is possible to try to negotiate, but I never felt the urge to do anything other than put a few rounds in him,

I think Bioware did a better job at making you think about how to use Paragon vs Renegade choices, this time out. Did anyone notice that if you haggle with the merchants that is Renegade? Yet haggling, seemed better than selling your likeness,and having to listen to your virtual self hawk wares - "I'm Commander Shepard and this is my favorite store ..', (face palm).

How about convincing the SI rep to purchase the indentured servant? That is Renegade. Yet how many folks actually freed her, taking the Paragon route? Those of you that did free her first, you do know that once freed of her status, as an indentured servant, that her wages would be garnished back at an interest rate not of her choosing meaning it would take longer to pay back her loan, she loses all the protections afforded her by Ilium law, like a clean room, healthcare, the assurance she could not be taken off world. How about helping Liara? That is a Renegade choice. Yet Liara sacrificed much to save you. How about lying to Conrad? You could tell him the truth, and crush his world, or lie and let him go home in dignity. How about killing those three Batarian stooges threatening Mordin's assistant on Omega? The same three stooges that met you when you first docked at Omega. What do you think they would do, once out of your sight, if you let the, go?

Renegade is not necessarily wrong, neither is Paragon, you have to choose the path that makes the most sense, given the situation.

Modifié par inversevideo, 27 août 2010 - 03:49 .

[PsyrenY]

krimesh wrote...

***PARAGON ANSWER:***
"Well that one you got wrong... paragon and renegade points are defined by what they measure: your credibility when you say certain things. If someone is ready to negotiate in even such a situation as Kuril puts you in, people are more likely to believe that person, if he/she says something idealistic. So trying to negotiate is in fact something which would make you look more paragon. (Except, if people think that you are just being naive that is.)
Samara is no pure paragon. She follows a code. A pure paragon does not kill helpless people lying on the floor in front of them."

I'm going to repeat this since you appear to have skimmed my post rather than actually reading it. Shepard never set out to kill Kuril - not even after the betrayal. All Shep wanted was to get Jack and leave. EVERY KILL after that was self-defense.

krimesh wrote...

Samara is no pure paragon. She follows a code. A pure paragon does not kill helpless people lying on the floor in front of them."

To quote Samara "I gave her a way out, she chose not to take it."
Paragon != P*ssy.

krimesh wrote...***RENEGADE ANSWER:***
"Stop QEDing things as if you just proved something by some legitimate proving method, you idiot! You can't prove a positive by example. If anything deserves a QED, then it is the last paragon line."

P.S.: I did not mean to insult anyone; adding a renegade response simply seemed to be a good idea, given our topic.

No problem, moron. No, that wasn't an insult, I was just being renegade.