46 réponses à ce sujet

[Sable Rhapsody]

 First off, lemme say BioWare's gotten much better about this in recent games.  That being said, when it comes to playing "evil" characters, I much prefer Obsidian's games.  

The "bad" choices in KOTOR, Jade Empire, and ME1 largely made me feel like my character was just being an ass or a thug.  There was no subtlety to most of "bad" choices, just something along the lines of "I'm a jerk and I want your money."  That being said, the evil or really bad endings in most BioWare games are pieces of evil wonder.  Becoming an evil god of murder, ruling an empire through betrayal and murder (in both KOTOR and JE), and playing the Council for fools in a horribly racist political ploy.  Delicious 

I felt like ME2 and DA:O did a better job with darker character nuances.  There wasn't the option to be overtly EEEVIL like in some other BioWare games, but you could be a thoroughly unpleasant person without feeling like the character was a) just a jerk or Chaotic Stupid.  There were justifications for quite a lot of the nasty things Shep and the Warden could do.

However, I've yet to see a BioWare game that lets the player descend to levels of twisted bastardry quite like an Obsidian game.  The things you can do in KOTOR II and NWN2 boggle the mind.  You can Force Persuade guys to commit suicide after surrendering their money, consume the souls of your enemies, brainwash your companions and turn them into horrible people, becoming a spirit-eating monster of literally godly proportions...the list goes on and on.  

So for DA2, I'd like to request some truly twisted bastardry.  There are political factions, magic, Flemeth, family, the repercussions of the Blight, and a million other things to be exploited--all against the delicious background of Kirkwall.  So please, BioWare, use this incredible opportunity for some jaw-dropping feats of Magnificent Bastardry Evilness 

[Vandicus]

I felt ME2 renegade was more Chaotic Stupid than ME1. When playing as pragmatic as possible, the only renegade option I take are the opportunity to kill the technician on Omega and the sniper shot against the droid(using Garrus's rifle) shortly afterwards. ME1 there were some rewards to being renegade. ME2, there were punishments for being renegade(Well assumed punishments if one cares about assembling an army to defeat the reapers).

[Hoagsie]

No.

http://social.biowar...index/4507311/3

Hoagsie wrote...

Evil? What is evil? A state of not good? Then in this case everything not done in a sense of lifting up your neighbor is an act of evil. If we want to see evil then let's just look at ourselves and our world.

Example 1: Drug companies have tested, experimented, dissected, intentionally infected soldiers, family men, and entire cities with unapproved chemicals to see how their products work and to make a quick buck.

Example 2: The USA has invaded country after country in the name of "freedom" so much so to be considered a zealot. But, the aftermath of those invasions are often chaos, fronts for organizations that, when matured, just cause more human suffering more often than not.

Example 3: You clearly know of someone who needs help or they can't feed their family or they can't do something else essential that you take for granted. Let's say it's even your *duty* in this case, legally and morally. Instead of helping them you go out and spend several hundred dollars on a lavish meal with your friends and/or business partners and laugh it up the whole time well knowing someone you could have helped who genuinely needs it is suffering. This actually does happen time to time from abusive parents toward children.

Example 4: Speaking of children, let's say you're an abusive father. You incorporate several methods of psychological, physical and sexual abuse on your own kids. Later on, one of your own kids ends up prego with your baby. You let the baby be born then kill the daughter that had them just so you can continue the cycle on their new born and not worry about the mother, your daughter, getting in the way because they don't want their kids going through what they went through.

Example 5: Your system of government prosecutes a person for simply speaking about their beliefs in freedom. You imprison him, torture him, kill his wife and torture his children. You abuse him until he bends to the state's will and publicly endorses the state's laws against such speech just to be beheaded immediately after the cameras turn off and put his kids in state sponsored indoctrination schools and teach them that their father and mother died standing up for the state and how "right" it is.

I think everyone, if not most, would agree that each of these examples is either outright and even disgustingly evil or evil enough that if it were plainly known to the public as such then the parties doing the deeds would probably be stopped. The question is, do you want the kind of evil in these examples in our games? Do you want to do this for fun?

Modifié par Hoagsie, 24 août 2010 - 08:40 .

[Eudaemonium]

Aw, I have to be honest I thought playing darkside in KotOR 1 was brilliant. Largely when I force dominated Zaalbar into killing Mission, his one true friend, and then murdered Carth because he loved me. Also pretending you were on the lightside so you could lure their fleet in and blow it up with the Starforge was wonderous.

KotOR 2 did allow you to corrupt your entire team though. I even had darkside Mira. That took some balancing in the early game.

[Khayness]

@Hoagsie

Video games =/= reality.

[Semyaza82]

I've just been replaying ME2 on a reengade path and i did feel like he was actually just a huge jerk alot of the time. The bigger game choices were much better but some of the smaller conversations bit did make him seem a bit petty. I should say, this is a minor niggle and more nit picking than a serious complaint.
Lets hope for some good evil in DA2

[Eudaemonium]

In ME2 though you get to headbutt a Krogan, which kinda makes up for everything else the game did badly.

[Semyaza82]

Eudaemonium wrote...

Aw, I have to be honest I thought playing darkside in KotOR 1 was brilliant. Largely when I force dominated Zaalbar into killing Mission, his one true friend, and then murdered Carth because he loved me. Also pretending you were on the lightside so you could lure their fleet in and blow it up with the Starforge was wonderous.
KotOR 2 did allow you to corrupt your entire team though. I even had darkside Mira. That took some balancing in the early game.

KOTOR as a Sith was amazing. I actually thought Jade Empire was pretty damn good (well... evil) as well if you went the Path of the Closed Fist, Spirit Binding all your goody goody allies into doing your evil bidding

[Hoagsie]

Khayness wrote...

@Hoagsie
Video games =/= reality.

Reality or not.  Depicting "true evil" and portraying it as fun is just ****ed.

[Semyaza82]

Eudaemonium wrote...

In ME2 though you get to headbutt a Krogan, which kinda makes up for everything else the game did badly.

This is true - i can't not headbut the Krogan even when I playing as a nice guy/girl. It's too fun

[AndrahilAdrian]

I thought renegade was the better path in ME2. I hardly ever felt evil,just ruthless---you never get to do anything sadistic. The only really evil option was leaving the collector base to TIM.

[Khayness]

Hoagsie wrote...

Reality or not.  Depicting "true evil" and portraying it as fun is just ****ed.

You don't go Andrei Chikatilo mode in these games.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I can't believe you just made a reference to the Rostov Ripper.

[Semyaza82]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I thought renegade was the better path in ME2. I hardly ever felt evil,just ruthless---you never get to do anything sadistic. The only really evil option was leaving the collector base to TIM.

I know it should be seen as evil - but i always felt like leaving the base was pretty sensible. Also I had really never noticed The Illusive Man's acronym and i find it way funnier that i think i should.

[Khayness]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can't believe you just made a reference to the Rostov Ripper.

Well he started quoting messed up stuff. Those things don't really have place in video games.

[In Exile]

filaminstrel wrote...

MotB evil is the evil I want to see. So very evil, yet not just meaningless puppy kicking. Everything you can do benefits your character in dealing with (or rather, embracing) the curse.

People say often, but I just do not see it.. Evil in MoTB made absolutely no sense to me. The Spirit Eater curse isn't even a power - it's just a kind of eldrich abomination you can become. You're looking at devouring everything in existence and then continuing as an isolated, hunger driven entity alone for all eternity.

To me, everything you do in MoTB absolutely screws you over with absolutely no real hope of a payoff fur puppy kicking benefits.

At least with KoTOR, your endgame is to rule the galaxy - personal benefits abound via making yourself king, using the force to extend your lifespan, etc.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Khayness wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can't believe you just made a reference to the Rostov Ripper.

Well he started quoting messed up stuff. Those things don't really have place in video games.

If we're going to look at the morality of video games, we're in for not a can of worms, but more like a Fort Knox sized vat of sentient tentacles.  You casually kill people in video games for something simple as getting in your way or disagreeing with you, merrily loot their stuff when they're dead...and this is for good and bad guys ><

[Rapidiul]

Vanilla, please.

[Nivraym]

I tend to create 'morally flexible' characters, and my favourite ones end up being as evil, but at the same time as reasonable as possible. I think doing something evil just for the sake of being evil is immature and does not make you a mysterious lord of darkness, but a silly brat (unless it's incredibly evil, then I just can't resist choosing the option and seeing what happens) I understand it when it's the character you're striving for (a brat that is) but not in other cases.

Doing something evil that looks right on the surface, taking all the benefits for yourself, whatever they might be (power is my favourite benefit and deception is my favourite way of achieving the goal) is a different thing. In Dragon Age you had different options to achieve the same goal, and everything 'evil' that you did was justified (there wasn't really anything truly evil that you could do though) you could still roleplay an essentially 'kind of evil' Warden without doing anything ridiculous though, so it was fine with me.

About DA2, I like how it was said that Hawke is called a champion, but you define by whom. Which means you can become a champion using deception and cunning, and it's always something that I like seeing in a game. I already created my Hawke in the back of my mind and she is not afraid to use any means neccessary to achieve her goal.



In games, in general, I love having the option to do really evil, chaotic and destructive things but usually there is no real meaning behind them. It bugs me a little.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

At least with KoTOR, your endgame is to rule the galaxy - personal benefits abound via making yourself king, using the force to extend your lifespan, etc.

In KotOR, arguably your objective could have been to protect the galaxy from the jedi, who will happily rewrite your memories if they think it's in your best interests.  I see the dark-side ending in KotOR as a victory for personal liberty.

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Well the Sith are self serving individualists are heart, not mindless socialists like the Jedi Council...yep, George Lucas is a commie!

[Riona45]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

So for DA2, I'd like to request some truly twisted bastardry.  There are political factions, magic, Flemeth, family, the repercussions of the Blight, and a million other things to be exploited--all against the delicious background of Kirkwall.  So please, BioWare, use this incredible opportunity for some jaw-dropping feats of Magnificent Bastardry Evilness 

I'm all for this because I appreciate lots of options for everyone, even if I personally wouldn't take them.

That said, if you can be a Magnificent Bastard, I hope there is equal opportunity to be a full-on Guile Hero.

[Eudaemonium]

Ryllen Laerth Kriel wrote...

Well the Sith are self serving individualists are heart, not mindless socialists like the Jedi Council...yep, George Lucas is a commie!

I always found the Jedi to be more Buddhist than anything. I suppose they are a monastic order, though, so it kinda makes sense.

I always go darkside in KotOR games. the only thing that annoyed me was that some of the evil things you could do served no purpose other than general bastardry. I don't really see the Sith as necessarily having to be evil. Its more of a different moral philosophy. Besides, if you follow the Jedi teachings I guess only Sith can actually love people in any way deeper than a calm, compassionate indifference =P. But this isn't a KotOR thread, so I'll shut up now.