46 réponses à ce sujet

[ErichHartmann]

I wish we could attack and kill nearly every NPC, aside from individuals that are important to the main plot.  (Had unintentional consequences in Morrowind, lol)  Nothing like an old fashioned chaotic evil rampage.  

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

I don't claim to know much about the Star Wars lore other than watching the movies and playing a few of the games but the Sith don't seem all that terrible to me either. I agree, most of the Sith quests/dialogue options are just juvenile bully type fantasies that yield no results but the over-arching schemes actually don't seem too bad for the most part.

[madmatt1393]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

 First off, lemme say BioWare's gotten much better about this in recent games.  That being said, when it comes to playing "evil" characters, I much prefer Obsidian's games.  

The "bad" choices in KOTOR, Jade Empire, and ME1 largely made me feel like my character was just being an ass or a thug.  There was no subtlety to most of "bad" choices, just something along the lines of "I'm a jerk and I want your money."  That being said, the evil or really bad endings in most BioWare games are pieces of evil wonder.  Becoming an evil god of murder, ruling an empire through betrayal and murder (in both KOTOR and JE), and playing the Council for fools in a horribly racist political ploy.  Delicious 

I felt like ME2 and DA:O did a better job with darker character nuances.  There wasn't the option to be overtly EEEVIL like in some other BioWare games, but you could be a thoroughly unpleasant person without feeling like the character was a) just a jerk or Chaotic Stupid.  There were justifications for quite a lot of the nasty things Shep and the Warden could do.

However, I've yet to see a BioWare game that lets the player descend to levels of twisted bastardry quite like an Obsidian game.  The things you can do in KOTOR II and NWN2 boggle the mind.  You can Force Persuade guys to commit suicide after surrendering their money, consume the souls of your enemies, brainwash your companions and turn them into horrible people, becoming a spirit-eating monster of literally godly proportions...the list goes on and on.  

So for DA2, I'd like to request some truly twisted bastardry.  There are political factions, magic, Flemeth, family, the repercussions of the Blight, and a million other things to be exploited--all against the delicious background of Kirkwall.  So please, BioWare, use this incredible opportunity for some jaw-dropping feats of Magnificent Bastardry Evilness 

In most of Biowares games for the majority of you were considered a good guy and only near the end  and only in some of the games were you offered the opportunity to be evil, up until then everybody just considered you an ass when you made evil choices

Modifié par madmatt1393, 25 août 2010 - 12:55 .

[Nigawatts]

Well to be honest Renegade is not really evil...he is simply trolling the entire galaxy. One planet at a time.

[madmatt1393]

thats basically what i said...

[madmatt1393]

Modifié par madmatt1393, 25 août 2010 - 01:01 .

[Semyaza82]

Comparing things to KOTOR - I like the lack of a particular evil group, and/or morality bar in DA:O. I hopefully will like it in DA2 as well! Ryllen says he doesn't know too much about Star Wars, well I’m a big geek (though I happily bow to my geekier brothers and sisters). In the expanded universe of Star Wars the Sith are actually very specific - just being evil (as most people would think of it) isn't automatically a 'sith' like action. If you ever played Jade Empire, it’s not a million miles from the path of the closed fist - power and ruthless efficiency is respected. Killing random people is pointless. I think the game missed this quite often. But in fairness, the Sith in the novels etc often plot for decades creating intricately hidden plots - not really sure how you would do that in a game. Once you strip that down the more thugish behaviour is left I guess.

In DA - there is no philosophy of being evil/a big jerk/a huge sociopath, so hopefully we get a better b*rstard

[wwwwowwww]

Hoagsie wrote...



Example 2: The USA has invaded country after country in the name of "freedom" so much so to be considered a zealot. But, the aftermath of those invasions are often chaos, fronts for organizations that, when matured, just cause more human suffering more often than not.

Pretty bad example considering it's false and very very much left up to biased interpretation.

As for being evil, again I'd say that's something that has many layers and level to be interpreted. What is acceptable in some cultures and consider culture and religious beliefs is considered considerably evil in others.

There are genuinely good people who have performed what would be considered by most to be tremendously evil acts, while at the same time their are some tremendously evil people that have performed some extremely good acts. Does doing more of one than the other swing you in one direction or another? Does performing more good over shadow all the evil you have done in the past or vice versa? 

[RevengeofNewton]

Very few people are evil for evil's sake. Always, it's about getting something out of it. No one does evil acts without getting something out of it.

[Arrtis]

Nigawatts wrote...

Well to be honest Renegade is not really evil...he is simply trolling the entire galaxy. One planet at a time.

Paragon is the good guy
Renegade is the bully

[Arrtis]

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Very few people are evil for evil's sake. Always, it's about getting something out of it. No one does evil acts without getting something out of it.

You would be wrong...on the part of people doing evil acts without getting something out of it.

[Herr Uhl]

Arrtis wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Very few people are evil for evil's sake. Always, it's about getting something out of it. No one does evil acts without getting something out of it.

You would be wrong...on the part of people doing evil acts without getting something out of it.

Then why?

Edit: I count enjoyment as getting something out of it.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 25 août 2010 - 01:54 .

[Khayness]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Then why?

For them.

Modifié par Khayness, 25 août 2010 - 01:54 .

[Arrtis]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Very few people are evil for evil's sake. Always, it's about getting something out of it. No one does evil acts without getting something out of it.

You would be wrong...on the part of people doing evil acts without getting something out of it.

Then why?

Edit: I count enjoyment as getting something out of it.

Some people feel compelled and get not enjoyment or anythign out of it..and know they are doing evil things.

[Herr Uhl]

Arrtis wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Very few people are evil for evil's sake. Always, it's about getting something out of it. No one does evil acts without getting something out of it.

You would be wrong...on the part of people doing evil acts without getting something out of it.

Then why?

Edit: I count enjoyment as getting something out of it.

Some people feel compelled and get not enjoyment or anythign out of it..and know they are doing evil things.

Nihilistic sadists?

[Arrtis]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Arrtis wrote...

RevengeofNewton wrote...

Very few people are evil for evil's sake. Always, it's about getting something out of it. No one does evil acts without getting something out of it.

You would be wrong...on the part of people doing evil acts without getting something out of it.

Then why?

Edit: I count enjoyment as getting something out of it.

Some people feel compelled and get not enjoyment or anythign out of it..and know they are doing evil things.

Nihilistic sadists?

No idea....people like that exsist....they probably commit suicide since they cant take it though.

[Schwadragon]

The thing I don't like about being evil in games is that whether you're good or evil you're still doing basically the same thing. For example, in KOTOR, you can be a dark-side character, but you're still going to be working for the Republic and fighting Malak pretty much right up til the end. Sure, you'll kick a few puppies along the way, but basically you're doing the same thing a Light-side character would do.



That's why I like ME's system. Paragons and Renegades have the same ends, just different means, so it makes sense for them to follow the same path.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ErichHartmann wrote...

I wish we could attack and kill nearly every NPC, aside from individuals that are important to the main plot.

Another strength of Baldur's Gate that we have lost.

[Daur]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

ErichHartmann wrote...

I wish we could attack and kill nearly every NPC, aside from individuals that are important to the main plot.

Another strength of Baldur's Gate that we have lost.

And good riddance

[Krytheos]

Hoagsie wrote...

No.

http://social.biowar...index/4507311/3

Hoagsie wrote...

Evil? What is evil? A state of not good? Then in this case everything not done in a sense of lifting up your neighbor is an act of evil. If we want to see evil then let's just look at ourselves and our world.

Example 1: Drug companies have tested, experimented, dissected, intentionally infected soldiers, family men, and entire cities with unapproved chemicals to see how their products work and to make a quick buck.

Example 2: The USA has invaded country after country in the name of "freedom" so much so to be considered a zealot. But, the aftermath of those invasions are often chaos, fronts for organizations that, when matured, just cause more human suffering more often than not.

Example 3: You clearly know of someone who needs help or they can't feed their family or they can't do something else essential that you take for granted. Let's say it's even your *duty* in this case, legally and morally. Instead of helping them you go out and spend several hundred dollars on a lavish meal with your friends and/or business partners and laugh it up the whole time well knowing someone you could have helped who genuinely needs it is suffering. This actually does happen time to time from abusive parents toward children.

Example 4: Speaking of children, let's say you're an abusive father. You incorporate several methods of psychological, physical and sexual abuse on your own kids. Later on, one of your own kids ends up prego with your baby. You let the baby be born then kill the daughter that had them just so you can continue the cycle on their new born and not worry about the mother, your daughter, getting in the way because they don't want their kids going through what they went through.

Example 5: Your system of government prosecutes a person for simply speaking about their beliefs in freedom. You imprison him, torture him, kill his wife and torture his children. You abuse him until he bends to the state's will and publicly endorses the state's laws against such speech just to be beheaded immediately after the cameras turn off and put his kids in state sponsored indoctrination schools and teach them that their father and mother died standing up for the state and how "right" it is.

I think everyone, if not most, would agree that each of these examples is either outright and even disgustingly evil or evil enough that if it were plainly known to the public as such then the parties doing the deeds would probably be stopped. The question is, do you want the kind of evil in these examples in our games? Do you want to do this for fun?

These are rending examples of human cruelty in our world, but the game world, and fantasies can be so much more harsher than you think. What you 'fail' to realize is this is a -game- and as such is not to be fraught with frivilous things as what you mentioned. I can already list several circumstances that happen in DA, as well as a few in Berserk that exemplify this to heights, and I will do just that.





*SPOILER ALERTS. PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT SCROLL DOWN IF YOU WANT TO KEEP AWAY FROM SPOILERS, AS THERE IS A DECENT/GOOD BIT. READ AT YOUR OWN WARNING AND DISCRETION. THIS IS FOR DISCUSSION AND NOT MEANT TO SPOIL THINGS YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE PLAYED/WILL PLAY IN THE FUTURE. BE ADVISED THIS, AND I DO APOLOGIZE IF YOU DO READ THIS AND ARE SPOILED, BUT YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED. *




















Example 1: Whereupon you finish drudging through the deep roads for months (in-game time, not actual real-time), you come back to two rulers bickering. What you have learned is this; one is a tyrant who is willing to do what is necessary to further his people's best interests. Murder, betrayal, cunning plans; they are his game and he is shown to be willing to committ these acts. There is no 'torture' here, but murder is as plan a sight of day as any. There is also the chance he may have poisoned his own father to take the thrown, but regicide -- 'Noble killing' as I like to term it -- is common practice, especially when you encounter the noble wife who was afflicted with a poison only a master herbalist could cure that many herbalists in Orzammar seem to have not heard of.

This king even goes so far as to essentially disassemble the Assembly where most political things -are- discussed, and essentially does in fact, work for progession in their society, but at the cost of a lot of lives. By comparison, his opponent does not poison or murder; he is a coward, who does not survive the harsh life of Kingly politics very long. Which do you choose? There is no third option. There is no good way to see who is right and who is wrong.


Example 2: You are an elven girl living within the Alienage; your wedding day has come, and you are to be betrothed to a handsome man. On that wedding day, a despicable noble comes to your wedding; the day before your cousin bottled him, and now he wants you, her, and many other female elvenhan to come, and he doesn't take no as an answer. In fact, one of his friends outright smacks you across the face hard enough to induce unconsciousness. When you next awake, you are briefed of the events and in no uncertain terms, it is made clear that resistance means death.

After killing swaths of the guards upon being rescued by another member of your family and your betrothed, you discover he is ruthlessly killed. After further killing many guards, you come upon the Arl who offers you an ultimatum. Take 40 gold sovereigns and leave. Or kill him. Your female cousin has been reportedly raped, and if you leave without her and take the sovereigns, she will be raped again. Killing him would land you in prison; taking his money will land you in prison (let's, for the sake of discussion, leave out the Grey Warden bit.) 

On one hand, killing him and letting them all leave is the most reasonable; but if you take the sovereigns -- which is a lot for a City Elf -- you would be able to 'realistically' start a new life away from here. In one instance, you save your cousin, and everyone else, but ruthlessly murder the despot there and leave. In your wake you have brought forth a swath of death and murder. If you take the money, he double-crosses you and has you thrown in prison. Both options means being thrown in prison. One leaves him alive -- perhaps he will 'visit' you in prison, and have you tortured, or leave you 'worse for wear.'



Example 3: This will be the last example, because I don't feel the need to go through this for every example; there are too many to list.

You are a Grey Warden. In your time as one, you have murdered innocents as well as despots, thugs, assassins, thieves, fanatics, demons, and abominations; mages and templars, as well as evil creatures. You have watched the murder of others, as well as participated in the murder of others. Perhaps you have killed mages relentlessly; perhaps you did not. Perhaps you were greedy, and assassinated those who need assassinated; killed men who deserted without knowing the full story, perhaps even being manipulated into it. Some you have killed were once people; people turned into monsters by a curse. Even if they are monsters now, they were not always that way; and perhaps you kill them because you need to; or perhaps you don't. It is all your choice, after all.

You have been through much; perhaps lost a friend along the way, or many. Finding your way into a dungeon, you see someone on a torture rack after murdering many, possibly a hundred or more, men. For months, he has been here; tortured for little to no other reason than because of his nobility, or his potential to become an ally for you. His father did not know he was down here; no one did until you found him. For months he was here, tortured for information, or tortured for simply being the son of a noble. No hostilities; there was a poisoned chalice involved in his capture, but irregardless of how he was put down here, the point stands. There are more people down here; more who have been for months, being tortured, or locked down here, given only the bare necessities of food and water to keep them alive. Releasing them all does not truly matter; perhaps you will have two allies, perhaps only one of the nobles will side with you. The others have had their minds broken by this place; shattered. They do not wholly remember who they are. Maybe they remember their names, maybe they don't; some have gone mad from the time spent, some haven't.

But the memories of this place will always be there. Always. Your presence, your ability to free them does not change this fact. You have given them freedom where there was none before. But they will still always remember the time spent in those dungeons, tortured or not, or left to rot, regardless of your rescue.


The truth is, those three examples of many I find are more than sufficient to prove that the in-game universe, while it doesn't explicitly show this, are harsh. I could use an example from Berserk, but I'd rather not; it's not pretty. The point is, fantasy ands human cruelty can go hand in hand; these things are from NPCs, yes, and we as PCs shouldn't be -technically- given these types of things to do. But we should still be able to be an anti-heroic despot, or someone who is ruthless and cunning; perhaps even be able to indirectly destroy lives of whole families.

While there does need to be a line drawn, there are tasteful ways to implement truly 'evil' decisions, though to be 'truly' evil would mean becoming a Villain. While I do agree that having too much evil is a bad thing, you still need to also include ruthless acts that may be morally ambiguous, as the nature of this game IS. While I am saddened I cannot as of yet become a Heroic Sociopath, I still would rather not have the option of being a goody-two-shoes be the ONLY option you can get. Especially in a setting with morals being very ambiguous, and loosely drawn.


Ah...sorry for the loooooong winded post and the spoilers within.

[Arrtis]

Yes yes were all evil what else is new?

[Darstragon]

filaminstrel wrote...

Hm... some NWN2 expansion spoilers ahead, by the way.

In Exile wrote...

filaminstrel wrote...

MotB evil is the evil I want to see. So very evil, yet not just meaningless puppy kicking. Everything you can do benefits your character in dealing with (or rather, embracing) the curse.

People say often, but I just do not see it.. Evil in MoTB made absolutely no sense to me. The Spirit Eater curse isn't even a power - it's just a kind of eldrich abomination you can become. You're looking at devouring everything in existence and then continuing as an isolated, hunger driven entity alone for all eternity.

To me, everything you do in MoTB absolutely screws you over with absolutely no real hope of a payoff fur puppy kicking benefits.

At least with KoTOR, your endgame is to rule the galaxy - personal benefits abound via making yourself king, using the force to extend your lifespan, etc.

I dunno, you still get your soul back, and you become ridiculously powerful. Those seem like pretty good benefits to me. As for the part about,

You're looking at devouring everything in existence and then continuing
as an isolated, hunger driven entity alone for all eternity.

I figure that since you've mastered the curse, you don't have to just devour mindlessly until you consume all of existence and become the supermassive singularity at the center of the big crunch, but rather, you can just consume things whenever you feel like it. "Farm" souls, if you will. And with all of that power, it shouldn't be too hard to establish dominion somewhere, to do just that.

Of course, in the epilogue you do go on a devouring frenzy to the point that gods start hunting you and then you disappear, but, well, your choices in-game didn't have to lead to that. That's where the devs chose to go with your character for the sake of having something to say in the epilogue. And even if you were to choose to go that route with your character, well, it's hinted that you're not dead, so you may yet become the ruler of some undetermined place.

Not to dwell too much on MOTB, but (MORE NWN2 MOTB SPOILERS)
yes, you do master the curse if you choose to devour Akachi's soul and everything you do in the epilogue is motivated by revenge, so you are not "an isolated, hunger driven entity alone for all eternity" being that you have gotten rid of the 'hunger' part and have full control of the curse's powers for your own use now. It's also speculated in the epilogue that after you escaped your battles with the gods you possibly conquered your own empires to rule on other planes.
[End of D&D mythos. Back to DA mythos!]