237 réponses à ce sujet

[nicethugbert]

-Semper- wrote...


that was not the point and i like a few simple and fun games too. i
tried to say that you can't call a fighting system awesome which only
consists of pressing buttons without questioning. hopping around in
flashy graphics with lots of action doesn't make it interesting and this
has nothing to do with tastes. it's just wrong. those simple and plain
systems were created just for the quick satisfaction for todays fast
paced society. people simply won't buy stuff where they have to invest
time to overcome the steep learning curve and the business supports this
with action packed games. this ensures the consument his "needed" quick
shot and the publisher is able to sell the next product, earning quick
cash.

to stay in our example calling nwo's combat awesome doesn't reflect a deep fighting system but a very simple one with almost none involving gameplay. that's the whole point and dropping some buzz words doesn't make it any better, actually it just lets those guys look like morons.

again nwn2 ain't the pinnacle of dnd combat. in fact it's just a watered down abomination. if you really want to know how true dnd feels then go play pnp or troika's toee. you simply can't mimic a turn based system without real turns. there you'll feel the difference between awesome and a shalllow marketing to sell some copies

Game companies don't want to take the time to help the customer deal with the steep learning curve.

I don't understand how there is almost no gameplay involvment when you have to make every move for your character in real time.

D&D is a simple game.  The d20 srd proves it.  D&D is a content rich game.  It has a lot more content than even NWN2 + Kaedrin's.  But, all that content did not spring up over night.  If game makers would stick with their games, instead of rushing to  reinvnet the wheel, we would have computer games as rich as D&D.  Although, I suspect that they would have to be simpler than D&D because of die rerolling and other retroactive moves.  But, I could be wrong on that.

I have not seen much of NWO's combat system.  Is there a wiki detailing all the feats, spells, races, and classes to come?

Modifié par nicethugbert, 09 avril 2012 - 10:03 .

[kamal_]

nicethugbert wrote...

I have not seen much of NWO's combat system.  Is there a wiki detailing all the feats, spells, races, and classes to come?

There will be 5 classes at launch, fighter, wizard, cleric, thief, and ranger.
Races: Human, dwarf, half-elf, elf, drow, and tiefling have all be shown to be playable.
Feats/spells and such have not been detailed yet.

Of course, more will be added after launch, Cryptic has not given a timetable, or list, or indicate if any races or classes will require buying access to.

this thread on their forums sums up the information that came out at PAXEast.
http://forums.playne...read.php?t=4738

[-Semper-]

nicethugbert wrote...

Game companies don't want to take the time to help the customer deal with the steep learning curve.

you have to differentiate between developers and publishers. developers love games. they create them for a living and they have tons of creative ideas. publishers on the other side want to earn money to grow even bigger and to satisfy their shareholders. they finance projects and they have the last word what will be created with the given budget.

to regain the money spent a publisher dictates how "simple" a game will be. triple aaa productions cost a double digit of millions, therefore there's absolutely no room to limit the possible crowd with steep learning curves - as the crowd even proves by themself. a simple and brainless action blockbuster like cod sells millions upon millions of copies within days.

and that's totally okay. in the end it's just business.

nicethugbert wrote...

I don't understand how there is almost no gameplay involvment when you have to make every move for your character in real time.

in my book gameplay ain't about controlling your character. it's not about pressing buttons to watch how my char hacks away encounter upon encounter with ease. it's not about earning achievements for every simple step i took. it's not about following a quest marker through a single corridor dungeon, sit through tons of cutscenes or listening to fully voiced but short and dumb dialogues.

for me gameplay involvement means effort. in crpgs i love complex rules, a fighting system that supports a variety of strategies to overcome well placed encounters, quests with different solutions not placed right in your face, a game that supports my creativity and which rewards my will to dig through.

to simplify it i would say that a beat'em up can either be button masher (tekken) or a fighting game with a complex system like virtua fighter - in both games you control a single character and press buttons yet in tekken even a zombie could win against the best by just mashing them. in virtua fighter you have to spend weeks or even months of constant training with a single character to learn his moves combined with the complexity of the system to become a "master". whereas virtua fighter is packed with tons of gameplay tekken's got almost none besides pressing some buttons.

i had fun playing both but i would never go that far calling tekken's mechanic awesome. it's just what it is: simple and dumb

Modifié par -Semper-, 09 avril 2012 - 11:25 .

[MokahTGS]

Neverwinter Online is shaping up to be a fat circus freak with one leg and three eyes, and it still can't see straight.  This game has nothing to do with DnD and the guys making it have no intention in making a DnD game.  They are making a hack and slash CAG (Computer Action Game) with abilities and calling it DnD.  They have no intention in doing anything for roleplayers and don't even know what that means when asked the question.

As an action game, it might actually be fun, but lets all stop pretending that adopting the "wait and see" attitude will somehow make things better.  Wait for what?  You can't tell what they are doing by the information given?  Really?

This game will basically be an MMO Diablo with a neutered toolset so that people can't cheat and exploit the crap out of it.  That PoS toolset will also come with a price tag just like STO, so have fun with that...

The horible thing is how completely disconnected WotC has gotten from it's fan base.  WotC fully intends to take the Neverwinter IP and sell it to the 6-9 year old clientel that has been buying trading cards.  Salvatore has basically shilled out the last book series in a mutant cross-brand tie in just so that this game and the 4th Ed ruleset doesn't fall completely on it's arse.  WotC needs the street cred that they think Salvatore's name will bring to this gaming abomination.  4th Ed and anything computer game based on it is designed for the XBox and iPad gaming crowd.  I'm surprised they even made this for PC.  Why?

The devs in those interviews should be ashamed of themselves.  If you don't know how to make a DnD game, then don't make one.  Don't claim it is something that it is not.  We all know better.  You just look like a fool.

[MachinSin]

Hi to all,

Seriously, is this really a surprise for anyone? The game idea behind was clear from day 1, as stated by many: it's a MMORPG class-type of game, very far away from Neverwinter Nights franchise.

Luckily, we still have NWN2 to role play a bit, and above all, create our own worlds "easily". So many years after and there's no other game in sight that can offer that,

MachinSin

[nicethugbert]

-Semper- wrote...

to regain the money spent a publisher dictates how "simple" a game will be. triple aaa productions cost a double digit of millions, therefore there's absolutely no room to limit the possible crowd with steep learning curves - as the crowd even proves by themself. a simple and brainless action blockbuster like cod sells millions upon millions of copies within days.

and that's totally okay. in the end it's just business.

There is also the matter of pricing the content.  The games we prefer are content rich.  The simpler games typically have less content than NWN2.  If you make a game with half the content of NWN2 but sell it for the same price, you have essentially doubled the price for the customer.

in my book gameplay ain't about controlling your character. it's not about pressing buttons to watch how my char hacks away encounter upon encounter with ease. it's not about earning achievements for every simple step i took. it's not about following a quest marker through a single corridor dungeon, sit through tons of cutscenes or listening to fully voiced but short and dumb dialogues.

for me gameplay involvement means effort. in crpgs i love complex rules, a fighting system that supports a variety of strategies to overcome well placed encounters, quests with different solutions not placed right in your face, a game that supports my creativity and which rewards my will to dig through.

to simplify it i would say that a beat'em up can either be button masher (tekken) or a fighting game with a complex system like virtua fighter - in both games you control a single character and press buttons yet in tekken even a zombie could win against the best by just mashing them. in virtua fighter you have to spend weeks or even months of constant training with a single character to learn his moves combined with the complexity of the system to become a "master". whereas virtua fighter is packed with tons of gameplay tekken's got almost none besides pressing some buttons.

i had fun playing both but i would never go that far calling tekken's mechanic awesome. it's just what it is: simple and dumb

Never played virtua fighter.  Think I tried Tekken in an arcade once.  Would you say chess is not awesome?

[-Semper-]

nicethugbert wrote...

Would you say chess is not awesome?

haven't you read my post? chess is all about effort. it gives me the base to plan ahead and to adapt my strategy quickly. it's full of gameplay and you've to think about your next move, either to lay a trap, build up a grander strategy or overcome my opponents turn.

it's worth to be called awesome in contrary to a simple system, which stays simple no matter how much time you spend with it. there're no "hidden possibilities", nothing to encourage the player's creativity. gameplay without thinking is no gameplay - it's just... well, button pressing

MokahTGS wrote...

sell it to the 6-9 year old clientel that has been buying trading cards.

hey, nothing against trading card games. i <3 magic the gathering! :innocent:

Modifié par -Semper-, 10 avril 2012 - 11:32 .

[Arkalezth]

MokahTGS wrote...

As an action game, it might actually be fun, but lets all stop pretending that adopting the "wait and see" attitude will somehow make things better.  Wait for what?  You can't tell what they are doing by the information given?  Really?

As you said, it might (just might) actually be fun. That's what I meant, aside of the DnD stuff, I don't expect anything better regarding that.

Agreed with the rest of your post.

MachinSin wrote...

Seriously, is this really a surprise for anyone? The game idea behind was clear from day 1, as stated by many: it's a MMORPG class-type of game, very far away from Neverwinter Nights franchise.

I'm not surprised about the game being a mindless hack n slash MMO, but I would expect the devs to have a rough idea of what DnD is before making a "DnD" game. Maybe not being experts at it, but something more than "pets" or "robbing monsters".

Luckily, we still have NWN2 to role play a bit, and above all, create our own worlds "easily". So many years after and there's no other game in sight that can offer that,

^This. I've almost no online experience outside of NWN2, but a few months ago I tried some online "RPGs" and I was pretty disappointed with them all. NWN2 may be older, but it seems the best, if not the only option for quality online RPing. Not to mention single player being great as well.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 10 avril 2012 - 11:42 .

[Dorateen]

MokahTGS wrote...

Neverwinter Online is shaping up to be a fat circus freak with one leg and three eyes, and it still can't see straight.  This game has nothing to do with DnD and the guys making it have no intention in making a DnD game.  They are making a hack and slash CAG (Computer Action Game) with abilities and calling it DnD.  They have no intention in doing anything for roleplayers and don't even know what that means when asked the question.

Sing it!

Now if only we had dunniteowl to weigh on the subject with such an eloquent, well-reasoned and appropriate post.

The thing is, I have the New Neverwinter campaign setting book. Aside from the abysmal game mechanics, the lore is not so terrible. There are plots about devil worship, searching for lost dwarven ruins, and political corruption. There are themes in the book not entirely suited for the 6 to 9 year old console crowd. Again, the marketing people of NWO prove they clearly did not know who to target their computer game for.

The setting might not be so bad for launching an adventure in NWN2, using the real D&D rules, of course.

Harumph! 

[kamal_]

"plots about devil worship"

Somehow I doubt my LG cleric who kills tieflings on sight, because he hates devils and they are "obviously devil worshippers", will be allowed to rp in NWO.

[Dorateen]

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he doesn't exist."

At least in the campaign setting, the cult of Asmodeus operates in secret, even jesting at the very notion of open devil worship. So, yeah, I guess NWO would get this wrong, too.

[nicethugbert]

-Semper- wrote...

nicethugbert wrote...

Would you say chess is not awesome?

haven't you read my post? chess is all about effort. it gives me the base to plan ahead and to adapt my strategy quickly. it's full of gameplay and you've to think about your next move, either to lay a trap, build up a grander strategy or overcome my opponents turn.

it's worth to be called awesome in contrary to a simple system, which stays simple no matter how much time you spend with it. there're no "hidden possibilities", nothing to encourage the player's creativity. gameplay without thinking is no gameplay - it's just... well, button pressing

I don't see Virtua Fighter and Chess or D&D and Chess in the same category.

The rules in chess are relatively few and well publicized.  When I played pnp D&D, we were not allowed to see the monster manual or DMG.  It's a little hard to strategize when so much is hidden from you.

The same thinking you do while playing Virtua Fighter is the same thinking you do while playing Tekken, I imagine.  Sure, in between matches you can read rules.  But, it's not chess.

[Dann-J]

It seems obvious that they chose to call it 'Neverwinter' in order to capitalise on the success of the Neverwinter Nights franchise. Otherwise they wouldn't have chosen such a boring Forgotten Realms city to set things in

Let's face it - compared to cities like Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate or Athkatla, Neverwinter is the Seattle/Toronto/Adelaide of Faerun.

[Shaughn78]

DannJ wrote...

It seems obvious that they chose to call it 'Neverwinter' in order to capitalise on the success of the Neverwinter Nights franchise. Otherwise they wouldn't have chosen such a boring Forgotten Realms city to set things in

Let's face it - compared to cities like Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate or Athkatla, Neverwinter is the Seattle/Toronto/Adelaide of Faerun.

In an interview they are asked what they offer "veteran" dnd gamers and their answer is the city Neverwinter. Not game play mechanics, rule sets, or a variety of feats/classes/spells/races. Nope. Just  Neverwinter. Because apparently veteran players only are interest in 1 location, Neverwinter.

I better make sure to include and overly advertise that in chapter 2 of Risen Hero the player will get to visit Neverwinter. Because it is the happening place in the FR. If you don't include Neverwinter you'll have a hard time getting onto that top 15 list and you can forget about that Halll of Fame logo next to your name.

[Haplose]

Hm, so it seems to be a huge step back compared with Dungeons and Dragons Online from 2006, which at least got SOME important DnD aspects right. A pity, but not unexpected.

[nicethugbert]

Shaughn78 wrote...

DannJ wrote...

It seems obvious that they chose to call it 'Neverwinter' in order to capitalise on the success of the Neverwinter Nights franchise. Otherwise they wouldn't have chosen such a boring Forgotten Realms city to set things in

Let's face it - compared to cities like Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate or Athkatla, Neverwinter is the Seattle/Toronto/Adelaide of Faerun.

In an interview they are asked what they offer "veteran" dnd gamers and their answer is the city Neverwinter. Not game play mechanics, rule sets, or a variety of feats/classes/spells/races. Nope. Just  Neverwinter. Because apparently veteran players only are interest in 1 location, Neverwinter.

I better make sure to include and overly advertise that in chapter 2 of Risen Hero the player will get to visit Neverwinter. Because it is the happening place in the FR. If you don't include Neverwinter you'll have a hard time getting onto that top 15 list and you can forget about that Halll of Fame logo next to your name.

Can we haz bungaloe in Neverwinter?

[-Semper-]

nicethugbert wrote...

I don't see Virtua Fighter and Chess or D&D and Chess in the same category. The same thinking you do while playing Virtua Fighter is the same thinking you do while playing Tekken.

either you don't get it or you don't want to.

[Primalrose]

Can we please have nwn3 with a new toolset? Why has the franchise strayed so far away from its original fanbase.

[M. Rieder]

Shaughn78 wrote...

In an interview they are asked what they offer "veteran" dnd gamers and their answer is the city Neverwinter. Not game play mechanics, rule sets, or a variety of feats/classes/spells/races. Nope. Just  Neverwinter. Because apparently veteran players only are interest in 1 location, Neverwinter.

I better make sure to include and overly advertise that in chapter 2 of Risen Hero the player will get to visit Neverwinter. Because it is the happening place in the FR. If you don't include Neverwinter you'll have a hard time getting onto that top 15 list and you can forget about that Halll of Fame logo next to your name.

Oh my god!!!! Risen Hero 2 has neverwinter in it.  Ohmygod Ohmygod Ohmygod  Ohmygod  Ohmygod  Ohmygod Ohmygod  Ohmygod Ohmygod Ohmygod Ohmygod Ohmygod Ohmygod  OhmygodOhmygod!!!! 

Modifié par M. Rieder, 11 avril 2012 - 07:31 .

[kamal_]

this vid shows neverwinter itself, and the wizard class (beginning around 3:00).
www.youtube.com/watch

[Tchos]

Magic missile and ray of frost at will, with virtually no cooldown, I see.

[Cimeas]

Quite simply put, I am tired of turn-based CRPGS. They were created because real time was too hard to do technologically. Do you remember when after 2003 almost the entire AAA western RPG industry died out? (save NWN2 and a couple others).

Guess who brought it back? BioWare, with their action RPGs starting with Jade Empire. How is it realistic, tactical, difficult or exceedingly fun to PAUSE in the middle of combat, think about all your abilities, and then make a decision? Combat should be frantic and fast paced. And this doesn't make it easy. You are dodging, jumping around, watching cooldowns, and deciding on which special abilites to use. You perform combos, and block enemy attacks.

Now I loved BG, NWN and NWN2. They're phenomenal games. However D&D is a Universe, it's an idea, it's a fantasy world of....you guessed it.....Dungeons and Dragons. And I Guarantee you, Neverwinter will have lots of dungeons, and lots of dragons.

The turn-based rules were created because I don't think action based combat (smushing figures together, blocking and dodging) would exactly *work* on a table. However we've invented a faster, more fun system to use in software, and we should use it.

It doesn't make me a 10 year old to prefer Mass Effect to Baldurs Gate (in terms of combat, story is debatable), and it doesn't make me a Call of Duty playing 'casual'. It simply means I'm bored of every fight being based on random dice rolls and a whole lot of way-overcomplicated stats. In a tabletop environment, these stats are necessary, and it's fun to build your character.

You say that pause-and-play turn based combat is more in-depth than action combat, but how is that true? Pause and play, I pause, tell every character what to do, then just watch them do it and hope the dice rolls turn out fine. Action combat, I'm DOING the fighting, dodging, casting and blocking.

Thank you for reading my rant. Not trying to troll.

[M. Rieder]

I think one of the main points being espoused is that Neverwinter online is not DND, strictly speaking, and a part of this is the combat mechanics, which are very different from traditional PnP and the traditional CRPG portrayals of PnP.

[Cimeas]

I would say the combat mechanics/dice rolls are a way of *playing* the game, rather than D&D itself, which is the universe, lore, stories and characters of the various worlds. 

(Although others may disagree, and *technically* I guess D&D has the combat included.  Ported to PC, however, I think the world is the main thing that I personally find interesting). 

Modifié par johnxtreeme, 20 avril 2012 - 02:48 .