237 réponses à ce sujet

[Dorateen]

What we need is a Dungeons & Dragons turn-based cRPG.

Hey, the good folks at Obsidian just got behind the Wasteland 2 Kickstarter project, which is turn-based, and raised $3,000,000.

Harumph!

[Tchos]

johnxtreeme wrote...
How is it [...] exceedingly fun to PAUSE in the middle of combat, think about all your abilities, and then make a decision?

I can't tell you how it's fun.  Only that it is, for me.  I tried numerous NWN2 persistent worlds, and I just can't play them, because they don't let me pause, think about my options, and make a decision.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

johnxtreeme wrote...
You say that pause-and-play turn based combat is more in-depth than action combat, but how is that true? Pause and play, I pause, tell every character what to do, then just watch them do it and hope the dice rolls turn out fine. Action combat, I'm DOING the fighting, dodging, casting and blocking.

But you aren't fighting, dodging, casting, and blocking. Your character is doing so and should do so based on the characteristics he/she has based on your decisions.  All you really should be doing is making decisions. The ability for you to make the right decision at the right time is what should make the difference, not whether or not you can move your mouse fast enough. What rig you have, your own personal dexterity, those things are meta-gaming, not gaming. In D&D, any D&D, a person with quick hands (or any hands for that matter) should not have any advantage over a person without. What joystick you have should be irrelevant. D&D is a game of the mind, not the body.  Everyone at the table (real or cyber) is an equal, regardless of personal body characteristics. cRPG's that are basically button mashes are games of the body, not the mind.

Now I enjoy an exciting virtual fight as well as the next person. But I have absolutely noticed that when my failures are due to my accidentally clicking the wrong UI button rather than due to my decision as to which weapon to equip, I do feel that the interface is not a good match for the intent. And to some extent the victories are more shallow. Hand-eye coordination just should not be a factor.

Regards

[Cimeas]

Thanks for replying,
I understand your concerns about hand-eye co-ordination, but we're hardly talking about Virtua Fighter or Ninja Gaiden here. If you've ever played The Witcher 2 or Dark Souls, I'm sure you've seen how aiming every blow, deciding how to prepare for battles, managing your attacks and more can be entertaining and tactical. The basic slashing and hitting enemies is very simple, it's 'how' and 'where' that is interesting.

I understand your concerns and I was very worried when I found out Mass Effect would be a shooter, but I took a leap of faith and discovered that action games can be tactical, and not button mashing grind-fests that you think they are,

Thanks

[Tchos]

johnxtreeme wrote...
The basic slashing and hitting enemies is very simple, it's 'how' and 'where' that is interesting.

This may be where we differ.  I play casters, not sword fighters, and I have to manage my library of spells.  The number of spells, and their variety of purposes, along with the fact that most casters get a limited number of spells of each level per day, as well as the very low number of hit points and lack of armour on casters means I can't just go in guns blazing.  If it were just a matter of swinging a sword and not worrying about 1-hit kills, then perhaps pause wouldn't be as necessary, yes.

[M. Rieder]

johnxtreeme wrote...

I would say the combat mechanics/dice rolls are a way of *playing* the game, rather than D&D itself, which is the universe, lore, stories and characters of the various worlds. 

(Although others may disagree, and *technically* I guess D&D has the combat included.  Ported to PC, however, I think the world is the main thing that I personally find interesting). 

Hmmm... what an interesting point.  I had not thought of it from that point of view.  I suppose that, like so many things, DND is many different things to different people.  Good point.  

[M. Rieder]

I think that the pausing becomes necessary when controlling a group. Without pause, managing a group of characters can be very difficult.

I think on division between types of CRPG players is those who like the quick twitch reflex type playing and those who do not. I fall into the latter category and prefer the computer to do more of the work for me. This is because when I play, i'm looking for a more relaxing experience. If someone plays because they need some excitement in their life, then I imagine a more reflex-based approach is more appealing.

[painofdungeoneternal]

Rule Zero trumps all other rules, there are folks running around with laser blasters and robots who are entirely within the realm of D&D ( and playing official modules even ). We ALL need to remember this is a diverse community, and there is no right and wrong with what we like - just because i like chocolate will not ruin ice cream. Just because i don't think i will like NWO, does not mean that it won't or can't be a popular flavor, i just happen to like what i like and i tend to end up in the minority quite often.

I think managing a library of spells is kind of not an issue with NWO, it's for the most part 4th edition rules, which just from reading them and comparing to WOWWiki, well they should be good for those who prefer MMO's at the moment. You get a per round power, per encounter power, and rituals, it should be a lot simpler.

Despite it having entirely different mechanics, it still follows the same rules, it should follow the character descriptions, choices, feat trees, and how many powers you get and where. The parts where it differs are going to require you to attach a debugger and monitor the random rolls to find out it's not even trying to us d20 dice to handle combat, dc's and saves. If you swing a sword it will hit every so often just like it does now based on how good your character is. It also won't have the same min maxer issues, but the story, world, needing to get a certain number of xp to level up, should match official rulebooks. Generally unless you are a D&D nerd with all the rule books for more than one edition, well you probably won't even know it's not unless they just totally screw up their implementation.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 20 avril 2012 - 09:03 .

[kamal_]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

Rule Zero trumps all other rules, there are folks running around with laser blasters and robots who are entirely within the realm of D&D ( and playing official modules even ).

I think managing a library of spells is kind of not an issue with NWNO, it's for the most part 4th edition rules, which just from reading them and comparing to WOWWiki, well they should be good for those who prefer MMO's at the moment. You get a per round power, per encounter power, and rituals, it should be a lot simpler.

Despite it having entirely different mechanics, it still follows the same rules, it should follow the character descriptions, choices, feat trees, and how many powers you get and where. The parts where it differs are going to require you to attach a debugger and monitor the random rolls to find out it's not even trying to us d20 dice to handle combat, dc's and saves. If you swing a sword it will hit every so often just like it does now based on how good your character is. It also won't have the same min maxer issues, but the story, world, needing to get a certain number of xp to level up, should match official rulebooks. Generally unless you are a D&D nerd with all the rule books for more than one edition, well you probably won't even know it's not unless they just totally screw up their implementation.

There's videos where they explain that they're intentionally not following the rules. There are no to hit rolls, at all, for instance.

[kamal_]

johnxtreeme wrote...

Now I loved BG, NWN and NWN2. They're phenomenal games. However D&D is a Universe, it's an idea, it's a fantasy world of....you guessed it.....Dungeons and Dragons. And I Guarantee you, Neverwinter will have lots of dungeons, and lots of dragons. 

By this token, World of Warcraft is Dungeons and Dragons because it has dungeons, and it has dragons. So clearly there is more to it than that.

When the lead and executive produce said : "DnD experience: Killing monsters and taking their stuff"  (http://www.youtube.c...v=PhhLZAFJmTs#!)
they revealed that they don't understand the DnD experience at all. There's a place for "killing monsters and taking their stuff" being the core experience. But DnD isn't it.

To quote what Semper already said (at 4;15 of the video.)
girl with wierd hair color: what would bring the dnd base to nwo?
guy: it's called neverwinter... what else do they want?!

girl: what's there for roleplayers?
guy: crafting and pets!

For instance, it's incredibly telling that Find Traps is not in the game. 

So it can be a fine game, and it can be a fun game (it looks like a fun action game), but it won't be have the "DnD experience". It's an MMO that has DnD names swapped in.

As far as the Foundry allowing people like us to make a proper experience.... the Foundry is so limited it's essentially impossible. (that's not their fault, it's a single server world and they need to control the experience because everyone plays in the one world). NWN1 and 2 have a lot of "holy crap, you can actually do that?!?!" because we can have control.

[painofdungeoneternal]

I understand that, but they are still following the basics of 4th edition rules - if you start out at 1st level the list of powers you have will match the players handbook and not what you get in star trek.

Much like how AC and BAB is figured now when you try to hit something, instead of how it was figured with THACO are different mechanics, with some affect on rules, but its still really the same rule system with adjustments to the mathematics.

The difference is the mechanics of combat, which is using the engine from their other game. AC, Hps, and saves likely are not even relevant. There is likely other areas. But even using the other system, it is still possible to recreate quite a bit of what is in the 4th edition rules.

Despite their not having a clue, killing monsters and taking their stuff is totally part of D&D. The issue is it's a very narrow part which ignores the wealth the game actually offers. To me D&D encompasses almost everything based on it, and my thought is they could do so much more - with that being said it's still D&D. ( and even WOW is really still D&D using far more features than just dungeons and dragons, it would not exist as it is without it's roots in D&D, it's just got a lot of house rules, simplified systems, and caters to a certain type of player and quite a few name changes to avoid being sued.  Even Star wars is actually using d20 rules and the like based on actual D&D. )

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 20 avril 2012 - 09:28 .

[kamal_]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I understand that, but they are still following the basics of 4th edition rules - if you start out at 1st level the list of powers you have will match the players handbook and not what you get in star trek.

Much like how AC and BAB is figured now when you try to hit something, instead of how it was figured with THACO are different mechanics, with some affect on rules, but its still really the same rule system with adjustments to the mathematics.

The difference is the mechanics of combat, which is using the engine from their other game. AC, Hps, and saves likely are not even relevant. There is likely other areas. But even using the other system, it is still possible to recreate quite a bit of what is in the 4th edition rules.

Despite their not having a clue, killing monsters and taking their stuff is totally part of D&D. The issue is it's a very narrow part which ignores the wealth the game actually offers. To me D&D encompasses almost everything based on it, and my thought is they could do so much more - with that being said it's still D&D. ( and even WOW is really still D&D, it would not exist as it is without it's roots in D&D, it's just got a lot of house rules, simplified systems, and caters to a certain type of player.  Even Star wars is actually using d20 rules and the like based on actual D&D. )

Killing monsters and taking their stuff is certainly part of dnd, but I don't think for a second it forms the "core experience" as they said. The core is still the story and achievement of the goal, and the killing monsters is incidental to saving the town or what have you.

I managed to save the town by going to a larger city and convincing a renouned hero to build a summer home in the town. The monsters, fearful of his reputation, left the area. Somehow, I missed the "core experience". social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/172/index/4566759/7#11205063

[painofdungeoneternal]

I'd be very careful saying you can determine what is and what is not D&D, beyond stating what you like.

I had a PVP server ( well i still have it, but the computer is not working that well this week ), and i have been told how it's not D&D, and really almost all the folks i look for advice also tend to refuse to even look at it. I managed to convince Dunniteowl once to hop on one time, who i respect quite a deal what he thinks of things, first time he'd EVER been on a PW and he said it did feel more like D&D with everything i added. This is despite numerous people telling me how PVP cannot ever work in D&D and how it's not D&D, and quite a few things i used rule zero on.

I agree i don't think i will like it, and i don't trust the developers to implement it well, but from what is known I don't think anyone can say if it's in the Spirit of D&D until it's released. Frankly it depends on how well they manage to suspend my disbelief, and right now they are not even trying to convince me to play as they are speaking solely to the masses that prefer WOW, and probably distorting the truth like crazy just to appeal to that mass market.

[kevL]

this got me thinking ( briefly - ya it happens )

Fantasy. As far as I'm aware everything sprouted from DnD (post Chainmail miniatures rules), which was conceived to fill a perceived need for heros in tabletop battles. The original ambience was medieval fantasy that borrowed heavily from Tolkien. Kill the monsters - and take their stuff - was at the core; storytelling evolved out of this, naturally.


for me, the root of DnD is IMAGINATION, and high fantasy ... i suppose it could be called " d20 writing "

Modifié par kevL, 21 avril 2012 - 04:31 .

[Cimeas]

In terms of spells themselves, I find it very hard to play a Wizard in NWN2. (Even though I love the spells, effects, robes etc.) This is because I struggle with the fact that I can only cast every spell once without resting. It just takes me out of the action when after every fight I must rest. What if I want to cast my meteor storm twice in a battle? I can't.

Now I realise many enjoy this system, and I suppose it does add a degree of tactics to a combat situation (don't blow all your spells at once, manage your AOE etc..) however I often find myself having to leave a dungeon to rest, then walking all the way back in through areas I've already defeated just to continue playing. (Because 'enemies are near' or something).

I much prefer a cooldown system as shown in Guild Wars 2 for example, or a mana based system like the one in WoW or most other RPGs.

But, each to their own.

[Cimeas]

Also, I completely *agree* that D&D is also about conversations, characters and lore. What it is not necessarily about is the turn based combat (in my opinion), which is more of a gameplay system, rather than a key part of the experience.

So I should have expanded my point actually to say that D&D is about the lore, world, characters and choices, as well as character progression and usually combat (of some form, whether that be action or turn based or whatever).

[kamal_]

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I'd be very careful saying you can determine what is and what is not D&D, beyond stating what you like.

I had a PVP server ( well i still have it, but the computer is not working that well this week ), and i have been told how it's not D&D, and really almost all the folks i look for advice also tend to refuse to even look at it. I managed to convince Dunniteowl once to hop on one time, who i respect quite a deal what he thinks of things, first time he'd EVER been on a PW and he said it did feel more like D&D with everything i added. This is despite numerous people telling me how PVP cannot ever work in D&D and how it's not D&D, and quite a few things i used rule zero on.

I agree i don't think i will like it, and i don't trust the developers to implement it well, but from what is known I don't think anyone can say if it's in the Spirit of D&D until it's released. Frankly it depends on how well they manage to suspend my disbelief, and right now they are not even trying to convince me to play as they are speaking solely to the masses that prefer WOW, and probably distorting the truth like crazy just to appeal to that mass market.

I specifically said I like kill the monster and take their stuff games. I just don't think they are DnD.

Are they playing by the rules (any edition)? No, they have said they are implementing their own, entirely new system.
Do they seem to care about the roleplay/setting? No, interviews have shown they don't seem to.

To me, you can have one "no" in there. Based on what they've said there's nothing to indicate that a swap of npc and placenames would make any difference. I don't think swapping out the names in lets say Torchlight with Faerun names would make Torchlight a "DnD" game. I think the same goes in reverse, if Neverwinter Online swapped out their names with non Faerun ones, it wouldn't make any difference and the game wouldn't be getting any attention in the DnD world. Wherever the line might be, based on what they've said I think they've crossed it.

Will I like it? Given my previously stated enjoyment of that gameplay style, there's a good chance I will.

[likeorasgod]

For me I like both styles of games. That is why there are many of them out there. Though if I want a DnD game I expect it to be a DnD game and not like all the others... I mean there is a reason I have MMO gamges, First person shooters, RPG's and such, to play diffrent things, but when they start makeing them all the same it gets boreing.

Modifié par likeorasgod, 21 avril 2012 - 01:15 .

[Cimeas]

Hmm, they have said there will be a TOR-style 'main campaign', hopefully with voice acting.

[painofdungeoneternal]

kamal_ wrote...

painofdungeoneternal wrote...

I'd be very careful saying you can determine what is and what is not D&D, beyond stating what you like.

I had a PVP server ( well i still have it, but the computer is not working that well this week ), and i have been told how it's not D&D, and really almost all the folks i look for advice also tend to refuse to even look at it. I managed to convince Dunniteowl once to hop on one time, who i respect quite a deal what he thinks of things, first time he'd EVER been on a PW and he said it did feel more like D&D with everything i added. This is despite numerous people telling me how PVP cannot ever work in D&D and how it's not D&D, and quite a few things i used rule zero on.

I agree i don't think i will like it, and i don't trust the developers to implement it well, but from what is known I don't think anyone can say if it's in the Spirit of D&D until it's released. Frankly it depends on how well they manage to suspend my disbelief, and right now they are not even trying to convince me to play as they are speaking solely to the masses that prefer WOW, and probably distorting the truth like crazy just to appeal to that mass market.

I specifically said I like kill the monster and take their stuff games. I just don't think they are DnD.

Are they playing by the rules (any edition)? No, they have said they are implementing their own, entirely new system.
Do they seem to care about the roleplay/setting? No, interviews have shown they don't seem to.

To me, you can have one "no" in there. Based on what they've said there's nothing to indicate that a swap of npc and placenames would make any difference. I don't think swapping out the names in lets say Torchlight with Faerun names would make Torchlight a "DnD" game. I think the same goes in reverse, if Neverwinter Online swapped out their names with non Faerun ones, it wouldn't make any difference and the game wouldn't be getting any attention in the DnD world. Wherever the line might be, based on what they've said I think they've crossed it.

Will I like it? Given my previously stated enjoyment of that gameplay style, there's a good chance I will.

I don't think it's just swapping out names, its saying its 4th edition, it's names, progressions, classes, feat names - it's going to be far more than just setting, but it's also going to fall short of being true to the rules. They are not bothering using actual mechanics, but they will be basing it loosely on the players handbook, and they are using the 4th edition terms striker, controller, and 4th edition ideas. To me it's problem is as much as it's following 4th edition concepts as much as it's really being a star trek engine.

My gut tells me the marketers are talking out of their pie hole, with the aim of appealing to a group of people who hear D&D and they automatically avoid it entirely just as much as i avoid MMO or first person shooter when i hear it. They have to convince everyone how little it has to do with D&D, and you are treating the descriptions at face value. If they posted in these forums, i am sure it would sound entirely different. Since the game is still vapor ware, they basically can say anything and what they are doing, beyond leveraging the star trek online base as much as possible, is pretty much unknown. I won't beleive anything i hear until the game is released, and really from what i know about MMO's they tend do a big update after release which is when you know what the game is going to be like. ( since they rush the programmers and nothing actually works initially )

Nothing more is known then at the beginning, and just because it's using that other engine does not mean it's just place names being put in. I can easily see being stuck with a random combat engine, and still implementing the monster manual, players handbook, feats, and spells. Recreating games in other engines is common, ( Zork for example ), and i used to play on a lord of the rings server.

[nicethugbert]

Sadly, D&D is about whatever the IP holders say it is. I'm not sure that NWO conflicts with that.

[Cimeas]

Cryptic's game designers are huge D&D players. Many a time have they talked about it on their forum for their other games, and even on their hiring page I believe they talk about D&D being a 'benefit'.

However, what they're trying to do is take the feeling of NWN/D&D but turn it into an MMO with an interesting action-combat mechanic. It's too early to tell whether they will succeed, and I do believe they should and will incorporate story and character elements into the game, but I applaud their intentions.

I love the setting of Neverwinter, and I know Cryptic is a good studio, they communicate with players and understand what we want. Neverwinter might fail, whether that is for the same reason as Champions and Star Trek (released with too little content) or because it's just not fun, but I have hope it will be a success.

[SuperFly_2000]

Although I'd like to be pepped up about the NWO game I'm getting less and less so.

The Perfect World Entertainment takeover and their vision for a "full blown MMO" (put full blown mainstream WoW-clone here) along with the latest gameplay videos don't really help...

I don't need a turn based game to play. I just want something like NWN, let's call it semi-turn-based. Also a much more top down view of adventuring/combat (like NWN again)...and also no cooldown-ometer-combat...but instead (again like NWN) a more D&D-like system for resting...

I don't know why it is so hard to see such a game.

In worst case I'd settle for a turn based game even. I heard some Bioware folks (probably bored to death after making the mainstream WoW-clone SWToR) are breaking out and making a turn based fantasy game. Cartoony viking saga something...looks cartoony but interesting at least...

Heck...even Diablo 3 looks better than all MMO crap...

[Kaldor Silverwand]

johnxtreeme wrote...

In terms of spells themselves, I find it very hard to play a Wizard in NWN2. (Even though I love the spells, effects, robes etc.) This is because I struggle with the fact that I can only cast every spell once without resting. It just takes me out of the action when after every fight I must rest. What if I want to cast my meteor storm twice in a battle? I can't. 

You can have your wizard memorize your favorite spells multiple times. Or you can play a sorcerer. Or you can buy scrolls. Or you can have multiple wizards in your party.

You can also consider using the Meditate option I added with my  Kaldor Silverwand Context Menu Additions. Not precisely the same as a cooldown since it is not automatic and cannot be used during combat, but a very quick and easy way to replenish spells after battle.

Regards

[-Semper-]

johnxtreeme wrote...

with an interesting action-combat mechanic

click click click click *wait for cd* click click click click *wait for cd*

as if there's a single mmo with interesting combat mechanic.