57 réponses à ce sujet

[MrnDvlDg161]

I see a lot of people put Shepard in the way of smoking Sedonis in that horribly rushed loyalty mission, so I'm interested in seeing people's reasoning for it aside from getting more  Paragon points. 

Me personally,  I let the man shoot Harkin in the leg, beat him up and then continued on to move aside when the man wanted me to move aside so as to shoot him down.

In my own opinion, it was his call and his decisions to make as it didn't have anything to do with my Shepard to begin with, if it was his squad of Mercs trying to do some quasi-violent missonary work to save Omega, that's his doing but Sedonis shouldn't have screwed with Garrus in that way.

For that matter I also chose to let the Hunters beat the tar out of  Taylor Sr. too.

[sinosleep]

I let Garrus get his revenge, hell I tend to let most characters get revenge when given the chance. I know that's what I would want if the shoe was on the other foot. Even when I play mostly paragon characters I usually let the revenge missions playout in the most satisfying way possible. People tend to die as opposed to reforming (can't trust it) or going to jail (notoriously bad justice system).

[ThatDancingTurian]

I stop Garrus from killing Sidonis, because the man is becoming consumed by his own revenge. My Shepard is trying to save him from himself, not save Sidonis. It's very clear a big part of him blames himself and he needs somebody to pay for it, but I don't think that will really make the pain go away. I think it's the better choice, personally, and it comes with a -lot- more dialogue (making the mission seem less 'rushed'). But that's just my personal opinion.

[OniGanon]

edit: Totally forgot this mission happens on the Citidel. But still, the crime happened in the Terminus, so you and Garrus are still the only ones that could punish him for it.

To be honest, the thought of letting Sidonis go never occured to me, on any playthrough, ever. I didn't even know it was an option until I saw it on YouTube. I just wish there was an option for Shepard to kill him personally instead of letting Garrus do it.

Modifié par OniGanon, 26 août 2010 - 08:21 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Yeah,now that you mentioned it, it didn't occur to me you actully could stop him until I found the alternate path... but... in my view, it was his deal, his war, and his own personal beast to slay rather having Shepard move in and attempt to " fix" things. In this case, I felt he just wanted support for a wrong done and that's how I handled it.

[MaaZeus]

Depending on Paragon Shepard (full Paragon or quick to anger against injust Paragade) I either save Sidonis, or kill him in the neutral way ("I Cant Help You" one). You know, the way where Sidonis accepts his fate/sentence and Garrus seems less consumed by revenge. The dialog on that is simply touching in a grim way if you know what I mean.

Sidonis: "No more sleepless nights..."
Garrus: "...for either of us..."
*gunshot*

Simply brilliant!

Modifié par MaaZeus, 25 août 2010 - 04:13 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

I intially thought he was going to the up front and personal attack --- but when he started to set up the sniper position, I was like... ohhh ok... a good pull the trigger and disappear routine.



Probably best, C-Sec would have intervened.

[khevan]

MaaZeus wrote...

Depending on Paragon Shepard (full Paragon or quick to anger against injust Paragade) I either save Sidonis, or kill him in the neutral way ("I Cant Help You" one). You know, the way where Sidonis accepts his fate/sentence and Garrus seems less consumed by revenge. The dialog on that is simply touching in a grim way if you know what I mean.

Sidonis: "No more sleepless nights..."
Garrus: "...for either of us..."
*gunshot*

Simply brilliant!

This is how I handle it too, on the times where I let Garrus take the shot. 

I'm very much of two minds on this one.  Personally, I think Sidonis earned the bullet by betraying his team.  Yes, the mercs got to him on Omega and threatened to kill him if he didn't help.  So what?  You die in that instance instead of letting your team die.  BUT - Garrus is so consumed with revenge, so consumed with hate, that it's not good for him.  Trust me, in real life I know that hatred, that desire for revenge.  It...wasn't good.  So when I see something like that in ME2 with Garrus, I try to either keep Garrus from killing Sidonis for his own sake, by focusing on how bad Sidonis is suffering that life is it's own punishment, or I let Garrus kill him, but only after having Sidonis go thru the reasons.  It makes it seem like it's putting the focus back on justice, not vengeance, if you get what I mean.

[Pacifien]

The reasons I won't let Garrus shoot Sidonis probably aren't good enough reasons for the people who let Garrus shoot Sidonis. I'll let Mordin shoot Maelon. Leave Jacob's dad should shoot himself. I'll let Garrus shoot Harkin in the leg. If someone on my team were to betray me, I'd probably want to shoot them, too.

Garrus has fallen far by the time you meet him in ME2. He feels that he failed his team. He probably feels his team's spirit is disjointed until he can set things right again. He probably feels he failed as a leader for even allowing someone capable of betrayal to join his team. He doesn't know why Sidonis betrayed him, but the fact that a turian is even capable of such an act makes him the lowest of scum.

So now Shepard stands in between Garrus and his target. However, my Shepard is a curious Shepard, so of course I'm going to ask Sidonis why he did it. Turns out, his reasons are pretty cowardly for someone who was working on a team that put themselves in danger every day. Maybe he would have always done what he could to save his own skin if things turned bad for Garrus's group. Don't know the reasons why he joined Garrus in the first place, but he probably shouldn't have.

So Sidonis is a coward who was looking to save his own skin. He let ten people die, would have been eleven if Shepard hadn't come to Garrus's rescue. All to live in a cruel shadow of a life. For some people, making him continue this existence is a worse punishment than a hole in the head. But that's not why I wouldn't let Garrus shoot him.

Garrus had been brought down low by what happened on Omega. His thoughts were consumed by what happened. Then, on the Citadel, he's presented with the source of all his troubling thoughts. I thought it was more important that Garrus look upon this man who had betrayed him, see how far Sidonis had fallen.

In the end, a paragon Shepard is either telling Garrus that Sidonis is already dead or that killing him won't bring back the ten who died. Shepard isn't standing between Garrus and Sidonis anymore. The decision was ultimately Garrus's, and he tells Sidonis to go.

Maybe if Sidonis had been living a perfectly normal life, showing his betrayal hadn't ruined him and that he has no remorse, Garrus would have taken the shot. At that point, I'd have no problem with him if he did. In that respect, Sidonis was an accomplish to murder and got away with it. But as it was, he was an accomplish to murder and couldn't get away with it -- his conscience wouldn't let him. Perhaps, knowing he doesn't have to look over his shoulder for Garrus to seek his revenge anymore, he can let his conscience drive him to serve his penance and hopefully make the world a better place.

[Pacifien]

MaaZeus wrote...
Depending on Paragon Shepard (full Paragon or quick to anger against injust Paragade) I either save Sidonis, or kill him in the neutral way ("I Cant Help You" one). You know, the way where Sidonis accepts his fate/sentence and Garrus seems less consumed by revenge. The dialog on that is simply touching in a grim way if you know what I mean.

Sidonis: "No more sleepless nights..."
Garrus: "...for either of us..."
*gunshot*

Simply brilliant!

I agree that the neutral method of taking out Sidonis is probably the most dramatic and profound outcome of the whole situation. If I'm letting Garrus take the shot, that's the way I do it.

[MaaZeus]

Pacifien wrote...


I agree that the neutral method of taking out Sidonis is probably the most dramatic and profound outcome of the whole situation. If I'm letting Garrus take the shot, that's the way I do it.

Indeed!

I forgot to write me reasons.

If I let Sidonis leave it is because of Garrus's sake. I am all for revenge if the reason is what is right and just, and this is how Garrus keeps rationalising too ("eye for an eye"). But it is obvious that the whole idea of revenge has consumed him, his very violent and sudden outburst are a very bad sign. He really does it more for himself than his mates.

A great thing is that Sidonis promises that he will do anything to make it up (even though in reality there is no way he can make up but trying is good) and he even keeps up his word. If you listen Galactic news (or was it Emily wongs news channel, dont remember) after letting Sidonis go you hear news that Turian named Sidonis has turned himself in and claims he is the reason why his team mates died on Omega, but C-Sec is bit confused what to do with him because Omega is out of their jurisdiction. So, I have no regrets on letting Sidonis go, despite his cowardice he seems to be honest hearted (probaply why Garrus never expected bad from him) and tries to fix his screw up.



If decide to kill him on Paragade runs, I am still worried about Garrus. I also want to hear Sidonis's side of the story. Thats why I do the neutral path because it seems to bring Garrus back on right track after he sees how messed up the Sidonis is aswell. Garrus is not the only one who got emotionally scarred by this...
But his crime is still inexcusable! Luckily Sidonis accepts his fate and Garrus isnt so full of hate either when executing him, but more like calm.
While results are same, it is still worlds of difference to just blasting Sidonis brains to oblivion!

[MrnDvlDg161]

I kind of wished they repaired his armor so he wouldn't look like hell for the rest of the game, sure I can see the scarring --- that couldn't be helped but could you have leased given the man a fresh coat of paint and some cosmetic damage.

I was hoping that if I took out that blue sun's sargent that was fixing the gunship would have made things differently. It didn't.

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 25 août 2010 - 05:36 .

[MaaZeus]

Alternative Appearances pack has fixed Garrus suit. A cool suit with nice mic attached to Garrus's implants, but unfortunately its not the same as Garrus's own armor.

[Pacifien]

I remember when that Appearance Pack came out, and I was talking to a friend about how it was $2. Once I told him it contained a fix for Garrus's armor, he said it was completely worth $2. He was probably right in that regard, I don't think I'd have bought the pack for any other reason. Well, unless the reason was adding armor to the crew.

Anyway, back to Sidonis, how often do you meet characters that have had a very troubled past and have done questionable or downright evil things? I can't imagine all of Thane's targets were evil men, nor that Samara only did good as a mercenary. Of course, what Sidonis did wasn't something morally questionable for the sake of a mission or anything like that, which is how it usually plays out for these characters. But still, I can imagine Sidonis joining some different team down the line, carrying with him the most troubled of pasts and determined to make up for it somehow. For my Shepards, anyone who expresses interest in making up for their mistakes does get the benefit of the doubt. Some of them might not live up to it, but Shepard is saving the galaxy and doesn't have time to dwell on it.

[MaaZeus]

Pacifien wrote...

I remember when that Appearance Pack came out, and I was talking to a friend about how it was $2. Once I told him it contained a fix for Garrus's armor, he said it was completely worth $2.

Actually that is exactly the reason why I bought it, totally worth it IMHO. While Jacks and Thanes clothing were cool, sunglasses ruined them and made them useless. Anyway, sorry about off topic talk.

Modifié par MaaZeus, 25 août 2010 - 06:05 .

[ciaweth]

In addition to agreeing with Pacifien's reasons, my Shepard intends to collect a favor of some kind from Sidonis in the future, if possible.

[SonofMacPhisto]

Reading this thread brought something to my attention: if you return to Omega with Garrus, EDI mentions how Archangel was supposedly killed. It's safe to assume Sidonis doesn't know he's alive, right? I wonder what went through his head when Shepard revealed Garrus was alive, or, really puts his 'F***' in perspective, doesn't it? :-)

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 25 août 2010 - 08:43 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Oh I see --- well different appearances aren't a big deal for me to pay for a new packet, but if it had been a natural non-DLC occurrence then it would have been better rather than what it was.



A minor design complaint, nothing crucial.

[Big Yam]

First time through I let Sidonis die.  I"m not going to impose my own morality on my bro.  He can make up his own mind.  Plus it was uncomfortable seeing my Shep in the crosshairs.  Garrus might shoot through me just like he did on Omega. 

[Miramar52]

The first time I did Garrus’s mission, I accidently let Garrus kill Sidonis (which made me feel real bad because I was talking to Sidonis and he said something along the lines of, “thanks for setting me free” and then he died.).

So I restarted the mission and convinced Garrus to let him go. It wouldn’t do Garrus’s dead comrades any good if he killed Sidonis and it was only for Garrus to feel good about himself. It was nice to show Garrus that life isn’t just black and white, plus going paragon made him grow as a character.

Modifié par Miramar52, 26 août 2010 - 12:15 .

[termokanden]

I love how Garrus is so driven and determined in his pursuit of justice. He's basically a good guy but needs someone to tell him when to stop.



It doesn't feel right to me letting him kill Sidonis.

[sinosleep]

Since multiple people said it I'm not going to quote everyone that did but here's a question for you. How is not letting Garrus kill Sidonis any better at relieving Garrus' obsession with taking him out? If you let Garrus kill him he's not obsessing over him anymore just the same.

[Cerrydd]

sinosleep wrote...

Since multiple people said it I'm not going to quote everyone that did but here's a question for you. How is not letting Garrus kill Sidonis any better at relieving Garrus' obsession with taking him out? If you let Garrus kill him he's not obsessing over him anymore just the same.

I once wrote a wall of text about my reasons to spare Sidonis. Incoming copy-paste:

-----------------

There's no right or wrong choice. Whatever you choose: Garrus is fine with it. When I was playing on the Xbox, I noticed I unlocked the Garrus loyalty achievement during the loading screen between leaving Harkin and the shuttle scene. I don’t know if BW intended to do this, but the way I see it is that you gain his loyalty, simply by resolving the Sidonis issue, doesn’t matter if you kill or spare. Whatever you do, Garrus is satisfied. It’s a missed opportunity that BW didn’t put extra dialogue post-LM in the game, because I’d like to hear Garrus really think about how you resolved the Sidonis thing. Is he really content? Was it easy to accept that he killed/saved Sidonis? Etc.

Anyway, I’m getting off track. On with this thing.

The raw information from the game

We first meet Garrus in ME2 on Omega in his base. He looks and sounds tired, which is normal if you held off dozens of mercs from infiltrating your base. When you get the chance to look around, you see the body bags of his team mates. Obviously, it has been a hard time for Garrus.

When you get back to the ship, you get the chance to talk to Garrus about his time on Omega. He got things done, people joined up. He tells you that every member of his team lost someone to Omega’s gangs. Garrus almost rejoices about what he got done on Omega – then slips into sadness about what happened.

Shepard: How did those mercenary gangs take down your team?
Garrus: It was my own damn fault. One of my people betrayed me.
Garrus: A turian named Sidonis. He drew me away just before the mercs attacked my squad, then he disappeared.
Garrus: Everyone except me is dead because of him. And because I didn’t see it coming.

He then tells you how this happened. Sidonis lured him out of the base. Garrus got to the meeting point, but no one was there. He returns to the base, and all members of his team are dead; except two of them, but they didn’t last long. Sidonis disappeared, Garrus knows Sidonis has something to do with this. He lost his team because of Sidonis and he’s planning to correct that.

Soon after that, you receive the following e-mail:

Title: Take care of Garrus
From: Nalah Butler

Commander Shepard,

My husband was one of the men serving on Garrus’ team. I don’t know how much Garrus talked to you about what happened. I don’t know the specifics myself, only that my husband died in a trap set by those bastard gangs. I know Garrus blames himself; he took every shot fired at his squad as a failure on his part, and it was clear when he sent me the message about my husband that he thinks it was his fault.

My husband would never wanted that. He was proud of the work he did on Garrus’ squad. He was taking back Omega from the gangs. He died fighting with honour. I miss him. God, I’d give anything to get him back. But whatever happened there wasn’t Garrus’ fault.

You’re his commander now. Please, if you can, help him stop blaming himself. And please don’t tell him that I sent you this. Thank you.

-    Nalah Butler

After a few missions, Kelly will alert you that Garrus wants to talk to you about something. Garrus found a lead on Sidonis and wants to find him. We all know what happens; you go to the Citadel, find ‘Fade’, find the real Fade (=Harkin), fly to the wards you get a meeting with Sidonis.

The shuttle conversation:

Garrus: What do you want from me, Shepard? What would you do if someone betrayed you?
Shepard: I’m not sure, but I wouldn’t let it change me.
Garrus: I would’ve said the same thing before it happened to me.
Shepard: It’s not too late. You don’t have to go through with this.
Garrus: Who’s going to bring Sidonis to justice if I don’t? Nobody else knows what he’s done. Nobody else cares. I don’t see any other options.
Shepard: Let me talk to him.
Garrus: Talk all you want, but it won’t change my mind. I don’t care what his reasons were, he screwed us. He deserves to die.
Shepard: I understand what you’re going through, but do you really want to kill him?
Garrus: I appreciate your concern, but I’m not you.
Shepard: This isn’t you either.
Garrus: Really? I’ve always hated injustice. The thought that Sidonis could get away with this? Why should he go on living while ten good men lie in unmarked graves? I’m sorry Shepard, words aren’t going to solve this problem.

When you finally reach the meeting point, there are three ways to deal with Sidonis.
1.    You let Garrus take the shot immediately after moving to the side. Sidonis will walk away, but dies anyway.
2.    You let Sidonis explain why he did this. He will then accept his fate and stand still when Garrus takes the shot. Sidonis dies.
3.    You let Sidonis explain why he did this and urge Garrus not to kill him. Garrus will let Sidonis go. Sidonis lives.

The conversation when you go for option #3:

Sidonis: Look. I didn’t want to do it, I didn’t have a choice.
Garrus: Everyone has a choice.
Sidonis: They got to me. Said they’d kill me if I didn’t help. What was I supposed to do?
Garrus: Let me take the shot, Shepard. He’s a damn coward.
Shepard: That’s it? You were just trying to save yourself?
Sidonis: I know what I did. I know they died because of me. I have to live with that. I wake up every night… sick… and sweating. Each of their faces staring at me, accusing me. I’m already a dead man. I don’t sleep. Food, has no taste. Some days I just want it to be over.
Garrus: Just give me the chance.
Shepard: You have to let it go, Garrus. He’s already paying for his crime.
Garrus: He hasn’t paid enough. He still has his life.
Shepard: Look at him Garrus, he’s not alive. There’s nothing left to kill.
Garrus: My men, they deserved better.
Sidonis: Tell Garrus… I guess there’s nothing I can say to make it right.
Garrus: Just… go. Tell him to go.
Shepard: He’s giving you a second chance, Sidonis. Don’t waste it.
Sidonis: I’ll try, Garrus. I’ll make it up to you, somehow. Thank you. For talking to him.

And after that:

Garrus: I know you want to talk about this… but I don’t. Not yet.
Shepard: I know it didn’t go the way you planned, but I think it’s for the best.
Garrus: I’m not so sure…
Shepard: Give it time.
Garrus: Yeah. Maybe that’ll be enough. I want to know I did the right thing. Not just for me – for my men. They deserved to be avenged. But when Sidonis was in my sights… I just couldn’t do it.
Shepard: The lines between good and evil blur when we’re looking at people we know.
Garrus: Yeah. There was still good in him… I could see it. It’s so much easier to see the world in black and white. Gray… I don’t know what to do with gray.
Shepard: You’ve got to go with your instincts.
Garrus: My instincts are what got me in to this mess.
Shepard: Don’t be too hard on yourself.

What exactly makes me want to save Sidonis?

I have to admit, the very first time I played Garrus’ LM, I let him kill Sidonis right away. It felt wrong, so I reloaded and spared Sidonis. After reading the e-mail from miss Butler again, it started to make sense for me. As you can see, I bolded some parts of the earlier conversations and her e-mail, because this is important to me.

Garrus started a one-man show on Omega. As soon as he got things done, other men joined up. He is the founder of the Archangel squad, which makes him the leader. When you are a leader, you want to make sure your crew is safe and well and you are responsible for this. Nobody is going to follow someone who keeps making mistakes or thinks of weird strategies that are destined to fail. Apparently Garrus is doing a good job, because he even has a batarian and a salarian STG expert in his team.

Turians value leading and protecting others, knowing your limitations instead of being ambitious, owning up to your own decisions and being responsible. When a turian gets demoted, this turian is not the ‘bad man’, but the superior who promoted him gets blamed: he promoted someone who wasn’t ready for it. There’s also Papa V’s motto: “Do things right or don’t do them at all”. Garrus might say he’s not a good turian, but this turian culture no doubt puts a lot of pressure on him. There is barely room for failing. And what is ‘failing’? “ I know Garrus blames himself; he took every shot fired at his squad as a failure on his part” is what Nalah Butler writes in her e-mail. What? If your squad getting shot at is considered a failure, then Shepard is a very bad leader. Garrus takes his job seriously, that’s clear enough. Whenever something goes wrong, his squad somehow knows this affects Garrus. Mister Butler even let his wife know about this. If Garrus feels like he failed when he makes little ‘mistakes’ like this, just imagine what it’s like for him when your team gets killed.

And that happened. He tells you about it on the Normandy – and there he goes again: “Everyone except me is dead because of him. And because I didn’t see it coming”. Of course you didn’t see it coming. But yet again, he blames himself for this. He only knows his side of the story; Sidonis betrayed us, my team died, it’s Sidonis’ fault, and I failed from preventing this to happen. I am responsible. How to cope with this failure? Forgive and forget? No, an eye for an eye. Sidonis has to die.

When you finally reach Sidonis, things are not as simple as they seem. It turns out that Sidonis did not actively seek out the mercs to rat Garrus out. And why would he? Garrus already told you that every member lost someone to the mercs. There is no way that Sidonis joined up just to screw Garrus over in the end. The mercs caught Sidonis and they threatened him: give us information on the base or die. Information or death. Well, you have to be a complete badass or suicidal to not give in to these threats. Sidonis got scared and chose to live. Does that make him a coward? Hell yes. Not the most honourable thing to do. But to quote Zaeed: “Doesn’t matter who you are. You got a gun in your face, chances are good you’ll do what the other man says”. Now, is Sidonis happy with what he did? Absolutely not! What happened is haunting him ever since. He knows exactly what he’s done, he knows the other 10 men are dead because he is the one who directed the mercs to the right place, he knows he’s guilty, and he regrets it. Notice how Garrus mentioned that he was betrayed “by one of his own people”. You can take that either way; ‘own people’ as in team mates or ‘own people’ as in turians? Again, turian culture: set aside personal desires for the good of all, put the group’s needs ahead of your own, ‘you only see a turian’s back once he’s dead’. Sidonis failed at being a ‘good turian’. He was a coward, and now his former team mates are dead. But remember: he didn’t pick up a gun and mow them down himself. He didn’t contact the mercs to make this happen. He is guilty, but indirectly. Kill him? No friggin’ way for me.

In the meantime, Garrus is juggling with conflicting feelings. He’s been trying to cope with feelings of failure and anger. He ‘failed’ as a leader, and he’s furious at Sidonis for what he did. Garrus is a man of action. He is passionate and impulsive, when he’s determined to do something, he will jump any occasion that will help him reach his goal. “ Talk all you want, but it won’t change my mind. I don’t care what his reasons were, he screwed us. He deserves to die.”. He already has his mind set to this, he doesn’t want to think about it. To me it feels like he’s putting both aspects – failure and anger at Sidonis – on one pile and thinks this will help him cope with that. Killing Sidonis will get rid of the one who made sure the mercs could find the base, but what good does that do? It won’t bring the dead men back. Moreover, Sidonis didn’t do this on purpose. Garrus thought Sidonis was the mastermind behind the drama, but that was not true. Not much of ‘injustice’ going on if someone chose to live. Sidonis gets a second chance to do something useful again, because this entire depression/post-traumatic stress disorder/survivor’s guilt/whatever you want to call it, it’s not helping him advance in his life. He receives some sense of forgiveness which will help him move on and do something. Maybe even something to make it up to Garrus (ME3, pretty please?). I see no harm in letting Sidonis live. He’s not an evil person at heart. He had the same purpose as Garrus when he was on Omega. He joined up to kick some merc ass, not to get the squad killed. When you return to the Citadel, you’ll hear on a news report that Lantar Sidonis turned himself in. Even though the Citadel has nothing to say on Omega, this shows me that Sidonis is getting on with his life – one step at a time. Even though Sidonis is not completely innocent in this, death is 10 steps too far for me for this kind of ‘betrayal’.

Killing Sidonis will reinforce the way Garrus thinks, which is not something I like. Sparing Sidonis forces Garrus to be confronted with what he really feels. Even miss Butler wrote it in her e-mail: “ help him stop blaming himself”. He says it when you’re back at the shuttle, “ I want to know I did the right thing. Not just for me – for my men”. Face it, Garrus. You didn’t do anything wrong. You are not a bad leader. Killing Sidonis will not correct that ‘mistake’ you made earlier, it will not bring back the 10 dead men, and it will also not help you regain faith in yourself as a leader. Seeing the world in black and white is easier, but it’s not the way it works in the world. By saving Sidonis, I hope Garrus will learn from this and that this ‘lesson’ will in turn help him see and live with the shades of gray in life. Killing Sidonis for justice was never the core of this LM in my eyes – it’s the internal struggling of that feeling of failure and to find a way to make it ‘right’. ‘Failure’ is subjective, and Garrus’ concept of this is too rigid in my eyes. Don’t be too hard on yourself. You did not fail, Garrus.