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[sinosleep]

m14567 wrote...

I realise this is a video game but to me you've prevented Garrus from committing first degree murder.  Personally, I'd rather lose his loyalty and prevent that than keep his loyalty and sanction it.

And by letting Sidonis go without any sort of real justice is condoning 10 murders instead of 1. Although I'm not trying to argue the morality of it. What I don't understand is how letting him go and killing him are any different with regards to Garrus dealing with the situation. He stops obssessing over Sidonis either way, so I don't see it as much of a reason to let Sidonis go.

Modifié par sinosleep, 26 août 2010 - 03:09 .

[PWENER]

Cerrydd wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Since multiple people said it I'm not going to quote everyone that did but here's a question for you. How is not letting Garrus kill Sidonis any better at relieving Garrus' obsession with taking him out? If you let Garrus kill him he's not obsessing over him anymore just the same.

I once wrote a wall of text about my reasons to spare Sidonis. Incoming copy-paste:

-----------------

There's no right or wrong choice. Whatever you choose: Garrus is fine with it. When I was playing on the Xbox, I noticed I unlocked the Garrus loyalty achievement during the loading screen between leaving Harkin and the shuttle scene. I don’t know if BW intended to do this, but the way I see it is that you gain his loyalty, simply by resolving the Sidonis issue, doesn’t matter if you kill or spare. Whatever you do, Garrus is satisfied. It’s a missed opportunity that BW didn’t put extra dialogue post-LM in the game, because I’d like to hear Garrus really think about how you resolved the Sidonis thing. Is he really content? Was it easy to accept that he killed/saved Sidonis? Etc.

Anyway, I’m getting off track. On with this thing.

The raw information from the game

We first meet Garrus in ME2 on Omega in his base. He looks and sounds tired, which is normal if you held off dozens of mercs from infiltrating your base. When you get the chance to look around, you see the body bags of his team mates. Obviously, it has been a hard time for Garrus.

When you get back to the ship, you get the chance to talk to Garrus about his time on Omega. He got things done, people joined up. He tells you that every member of his team lost someone to Omega’s gangs. Garrus almost rejoices about what he got done on Omega – then slips into sadness about what happened.

Shepard: How did those mercenary gangs take down your team?
Garrus: It was my own damn fault. One of my people betrayed me.
Garrus: A turian named Sidonis. He drew me away just before the mercs attacked my squad, then he disappeared.
Garrus: Everyone except me is dead because of him. And because I didn’t see it coming.

He then tells you how this happened. Sidonis lured him out of the base. Garrus got to the meeting point, but no one was there. He returns to the base, and all members of his team are dead; except two of them, but they didn’t last long. Sidonis disappeared, Garrus knows Sidonis has something to do with this. He lost his team because of Sidonis and he’s planning to correct that.

Soon after that, you receive the following e-mail:

Title: Take care of Garrus
From: Nalah Butler

Commander Shepard,

My husband was one of the men serving on Garrus’ team. I don’t know how much Garrus talked to you about what happened. I don’t know the specifics myself, only that my husband died in a trap set by those bastard gangs. I know Garrus blames himself; he took every shot fired at his squad as a failure on his part, and it was clear when he sent me the message about my husband that he thinks it was his fault.

My husband would never wanted that. He was proud of the work he did on Garrus’ squad. He was taking back Omega from the gangs. He died fighting with honour. I miss him. God, I’d give anything to get him back. But whatever happened there wasn’t Garrus’ fault.

You’re his commander now. Please, if you can, help him stop blaming himself. And please don’t tell him that I sent you this. Thank you.

-    Nalah Butler

After a few missions, Kelly will alert you that Garrus wants to talk to you about something. Garrus found a lead on Sidonis and wants to find him. We all know what happens; you go to the Citadel, find ‘Fade’, find the real Fade (=Harkin), fly to the wards you get a meeting with Sidonis.

The shuttle conversation:

Garrus: What do you want from me, Shepard? What would you do if someone betrayed you?
Shepard: I’m not sure, but I wouldn’t let it change me.
Garrus: I would’ve said the same thing before it happened to me.
Shepard: It’s not too late. You don’t have to go through with this.
Garrus: Who’s going to bring Sidonis to justice if I don’t? Nobody else knows what he’s done. Nobody else cares. I don’t see any other options.
Shepard: Let me talk to him.
Garrus: Talk all you want, but it won’t change my mind. I don’t care what his reasons were, he screwed us. He deserves to die.
Shepard: I understand what you’re going through, but do you really want to kill him?
Garrus: I appreciate your concern, but I’m not you.
Shepard: This isn’t you either.
Garrus: Really? I’ve always hated injustice. The thought that Sidonis could get away with this? Why should he go on living while ten good men lie in unmarked graves? I’m sorry Shepard, words aren’t going to solve this problem.

When you finally reach the meeting point, there are three ways to deal with Sidonis.
1.    You let Garrus take the shot immediately after moving to the side. Sidonis will walk away, but dies anyway.
2.    You let Sidonis explain why he did this. He will then accept his fate and stand still when Garrus takes the shot. Sidonis dies.
3.    You let Sidonis explain why he did this and urge Garrus not to kill him. Garrus will let Sidonis go. Sidonis lives.

The conversation when you go for option #3:

Sidonis: Look. I didn’t want to do it, I didn’t have a choice.
Garrus: Everyone has a choice.
Sidonis: They got to me. Said they’d kill me if I didn’t help. What was I supposed to do?
Garrus: Let me take the shot, Shepard. He’s a damn coward.
Shepard: That’s it? You were just trying to save yourself?
Sidonis: I know what I did. I know they died because of me. I have to live with that. I wake up every night… sick… and sweating. Each of their faces staring at me, accusing me. I’m already a dead man. I don’t sleep. Food, has no taste. Some days I just want it to be over.
Garrus: Just give me the chance.
Shepard: You have to let it go, Garrus. He’s already paying for his crime.
Garrus: He hasn’t paid enough. He still has his life.
Shepard: Look at him Garrus, he’s not alive. There’s nothing left to kill.
Garrus: My men, they deserved better.
Sidonis: Tell Garrus… I guess there’s nothing I can say to make it right.
Garrus: Just… go. Tell him to go.
Shepard: He’s giving you a second chance, Sidonis. Don’t waste it.
Sidonis: I’ll try, Garrus. I’ll make it up to you, somehow. Thank you. For talking to him.

And after that:

Garrus: I know you want to talk about this… but I don’t. Not yet.
Shepard: I know it didn’t go the way you planned, but I think it’s for the best.
Garrus: I’m not so sure…
Shepard: Give it time.
Garrus: Yeah. Maybe that’ll be enough. I want to know I did the right thing. Not just for me – for my men. They deserved to be avenged. But when Sidonis was in my sights… I just couldn’t do it.
Shepard: The lines between good and evil blur when we’re looking at people we know.
Garrus: Yeah. There was still good in him… I could see it. It’s so much easier to see the world in black and white. Gray… I don’t know what to do with gray.
Shepard: You’ve got to go with your instincts.
Garrus: My instincts are what got me in to this mess.
Shepard: Don’t be too hard on yourself.

What exactly makes me want to save Sidonis?

I have to admit, the very first time I played Garrus’ LM, I let him kill Sidonis right away. It felt wrong, so I reloaded and spared Sidonis. After reading the e-mail from miss Butler again, it started to make sense for me. As you can see, I bolded some parts of the earlier conversations and her e-mail, because this is important to me.

Garrus started a one-man show on Omega. As soon as he got things done, other men joined up. He is the founder of the Archangel squad, which makes him the leader. When you are a leader, you want to make sure your crew is safe and well and you are responsible for this. Nobody is going to follow someone who keeps making mistakes or thinks of weird strategies that are destined to fail. Apparently Garrus is doing a good job, because he even has a batarian and a salarian STG expert in his team.

Turians value leading and protecting others, knowing your limitations instead of being ambitious, owning up to your own decisions and being responsible. When a turian gets demoted, this turian is not the ‘bad man’, but the superior who promoted him gets blamed: he promoted someone who wasn’t ready for it. There’s also Papa V’s motto: “Do things right or don’t do them at all”. Garrus might say he’s not a good turian, but this turian culture no doubt puts a lot of pressure on him. There is barely room for failing. And what is ‘failing’? “ I know Garrus blames himself; he took every shot fired at his squad as a failure on his part” is what Nalah Butler writes in her e-mail. What? If your squad getting shot at is considered a failure, then Shepard is a very bad leader. Garrus takes his job seriously, that’s clear enough. Whenever something goes wrong, his squad somehow knows this affects Garrus. Mister Butler even let his wife know about this. If Garrus feels like he failed when he makes little ‘mistakes’ like this, just imagine what it’s like for him when your team gets killed.

And that happened. He tells you about it on the Normandy – and there he goes again: “Everyone except me is dead because of him. And because I didn’t see it coming”. Of course you didn’t see it coming. But yet again, he blames himself for this. He only knows his side of the story; Sidonis betrayed us, my team died, it’s Sidonis’ fault, and I failed from preventing this to happen. I am responsible. How to cope with this failure? Forgive and forget? No, an eye for an eye. Sidonis has to die.

When you finally reach Sidonis, things are not as simple as they seem. It turns out that Sidonis did not actively seek out the mercs to rat Garrus out. And why would he? Garrus already told you that every member lost someone to the mercs. There is no way that Sidonis joined up just to screw Garrus over in the end. The mercs caught Sidonis and they threatened him: give us information on the base or die. Information or death. Well, you have to be a complete badass or suicidal to not give in to these threats. Sidonis got scared and chose to live. Does that make him a coward? Hell yes. Not the most honourable thing to do. But to quote Zaeed: “Doesn’t matter who you are. You got a gun in your face, chances are good you’ll do what the other man says”. Now, is Sidonis happy with what he did? Absolutely not! What happened is haunting him ever since. He knows exactly what he’s done, he knows the other 10 men are dead because he is the one who directed the mercs to the right place, he knows he’s guilty, and he regrets it. Notice how Garrus mentioned that he was betrayed “by one of his own people”. You can take that either way; ‘own people’ as in team mates or ‘own people’ as in turians? Again, turian culture: set aside personal desires for the good of all, put the group’s needs ahead of your own, ‘you only see a turian’s back once he’s dead’. Sidonis failed at being a ‘good turian’. He was a coward, and now his former team mates are dead. But remember: he didn’t pick up a gun and mow them down himself. He didn’t contact the mercs to make this happen. He is guilty, but indirectly. Kill him? No friggin’ way for me.

In the meantime, Garrus is juggling with conflicting feelings. He’s been trying to cope with feelings of failure and anger. He ‘failed’ as a leader, and he’s furious at Sidonis for what he did. Garrus is a man of action. He is passionate and impulsive, when he’s determined to do something, he will jump any occasion that will help him reach his goal. “ Talk all you want, but it won’t change my mind. I don’t care what his reasons were, he screwed us. He deserves to die.”. He already has his mind set to this, he doesn’t want to think about it. To me it feels like he’s putting both aspects – failure and anger at Sidonis – on one pile and thinks this will help him cope with that. Killing Sidonis will get rid of the one who made sure the mercs could find the base, but what good does that do? It won’t bring the dead men back. Moreover, Sidonis didn’t do this on purpose. Garrus thought Sidonis was the mastermind behind the drama, but that was not true. Not much of ‘injustice’ going on if someone chose to live. Sidonis gets a second chance to do something useful again, because this entire depression/post-traumatic stress disorder/survivor’s guilt/whatever you want to call it, it’s not helping him advance in his life. He receives some sense of forgiveness which will help him move on and do something. Maybe even something to make it up to Garrus (ME3, pretty please?). I see no harm in letting Sidonis live. He’s not an evil person at heart. He had the same purpose as Garrus when he was on Omega. He joined up to kick some merc ass, not to get the squad killed. When you return to the Citadel, you’ll hear on a news report that Lantar Sidonis turned himself in. Even though the Citadel has nothing to say on Omega, this shows me that Sidonis is getting on with his life – one step at a time. Even though Sidonis is not completely innocent in this, death is 10 steps too far for me for this kind of ‘betrayal’.

Killing Sidonis will reinforce the way Garrus thinks, which is not something I like. Sparing Sidonis forces Garrus to be confronted with what he really feels. Even miss Butler wrote it in her e-mail: “ help him stop blaming himself”. He says it when you’re back at the shuttle, “ I want to know I did the right thing. Not just for me – for my men”. Face it, Garrus. You didn’t do anything wrong. You are not a bad leader. Killing Sidonis will not correct that ‘mistake’ you made earlier, it will not bring back the 10 dead men, and it will also not help you regain faith in yourself as a leader. Seeing the world in black and white is easier, but it’s not the way it works in the world. By saving Sidonis, I hope Garrus will learn from this and that this ‘lesson’ will in turn help him see and live with the shades of gray in life. Killing Sidonis for justice was never the core of this LM in my eyes – it’s the internal struggling of that feeling of failure and to find a way to make it ‘right’. ‘Failure’ is subjective, and Garrus’ concept of this is too rigid in my eyes. Don’t be too hard on yourself. You did not fail, Garrus.

WALL O TEXT ON MY EYES!!!!!

[PWENER]

Don't let him do it, it ain't worth it. Garrus is too naive to understand.

[mcsupersport]

sinosleep wrote...

m14567 wrote...

I realise this is a video game but to me you've prevented Garrus from committing first degree murder.  Personally, I'd rather lose his loyalty and prevent that than keep his loyalty and sanction it.

And by letting Sidonis go without any sort of real justice is condoning 5 murders instead of 1. Although I'm not trying to argue the morality of it. What I don't understand is how letting him go and killing him are any different with regards to Garrus dealing with the situation. He stops obssessing over Sidonis either way, so I don't see it as much of a reason to let Sidonis go.

I think it has to do with the act of murder and how it effects people internally who actually have a conscience.  There is something very different between killing someone if full cold blood and killing someone in a war.  Sidonis doesn't appear to be armed, is on a facility that doesn't allow weapons, patrolled by police.  To kill him there can and will change a person, because you go from a warrior to executioner/murderer.  Yes, Sidonis betrayed his group, BUT the way Garrus was going to kill him, and the reasons I heard, said to me it would hurt Garrus much more than coming to grips with Sidonis as a weak individual. 

In the game he does stop obsessing over Sidonis in the shortterm but there is no guarantee that it will last.  Sleepless nights are created in people who have a conscience, by committing murder.  The old two wrongs don't make a right, it was wrong of Sidonis to betray his group, and it is wrong to murder him.  There are other ways to get justice, rather than an assassin's bullet in cold blood. 

Also as a note to the game, don't know whether it will come up, more than the ending mission note, that Cerebrus "operatives" will handle the fallout, but there is so many ways this could come back and bite Shepard and Garrus in the butt.  Committing murder in the heart of the Citidel is extremely risky and foolhearty.  They should have given Sidonis a new identiy that took him out of the Citidel and then met him either in space or on a rougher space station to handle the business.

[Pacifien]

Just occurred to me after reading mcsupersport's comment that Garrus is taking a very impersonal way of dealing with the situation. Had you carried out his plan the way he wanted, Sidonis would have gotten a bullet between the eyes, never having even a second to realize who was his executioner. Garrus also wouldn't have to talk to Sidonis, just sit in silence until he gets his opening much the way an assassin tends to wait. Like Thane, cold and indifferent. Unlike Thane, though, Garrus was anything but cold and indifferent in regards to the situation.

Reminds me of Grunt's comment to Shepard. Warriors like them, right to the face. Garrus owed it to himself to look Sidonis in the eye when he killed him. In turn, he should have seen Sidonis's reaction knowing it was Garrus who would kill him.

[OniGanon]

I'm pretty sure he'd have known why he was being targeted, if not by who. And the list of people who knew his identity and wanted him dead so badly couldn't be very long.

Modifié par OniGanon, 26 août 2010 - 08:32 .

[termokanden]

sinosleep wrote...

And by letting Sidonis go without any sort of real justice is condoning 10 murders instead of 1. Although I'm not trying to argue the morality of it. What I don't understand is how letting him go and killing him are any different with regards to Garrus dealing with the situation. He stops obssessing over Sidonis either way, so I don't see it as much of a reason to let Sidonis go.

What do you gain from killing him? Garrus shoots a broken man that has now been exposed and can no longer escape. It is a completely unnecessary act of murder.

As has also been mentioned, he doesn't even confront Sidonis face to face, he prefers to just kill him with a sniper rifle. At least Zaeed knows how it's done!

[Gibb_Garrus]

how do you get the neutral option? I only ever see "Warn Sidonis" or "Move to the side". The neutral option sounds a lot better than these two.

[sinosleep]

termokanden wrote...
What do you gain from killing him? Garrus shoots a broken man that has now been exposed and can no longer escape. It is a completely unnecessary act of murder.

As has also been mentioned, he doesn't even confront Sidonis face to face, he prefers to just kill him with a sniper rifle. At least Zaeed knows how it's done!

What you gain is that avenge the deaths of his team. It doesn't matter that he's "broken". You think the families of the victims would want him to go free? It'd be like letting a drunk driver who killed several people not serve out his manslaughter jail sentence cause he was "sorry." It doesn't matter how sorry he is, the fact of the matter is that in the terminus systems there is only one form of justice, and that's self made justice. Either you kill him, or you completely screw those families over.

[termokanden]

They're not in the Terminus Systems though.



Paragon Shepard is trying to teach Garrus that murdering people based on your own personal need for revenge is not justice, and Renegade Shepard only cares about stopping Sidonis for good, having no trust in the legal system at all.



I'm trying to avoid the whole death penalty debate here, but in any case I will argue that Sidonis' crime does not warrant killing him. He was threatened to betray them and obviously isn't exactly enjoying the situation, he did not just go out and murder people for his own personal amusement.



Dr. Saleon from ME1 on the other hand was a real piece of work.

[OniGanon]

I don't know what the big deal is. It's a quick, clean execution. If Garrus was really losing himself to revenge or whatever, he'd kidnap Sidonis and beat him to death.



I mean, really. It's not like Bailey's going to stop Shepard, is he? Shepard can murder a Turian politician right before Bailey's eyes and still get away with it.

[termokanden]

Perhaps it's a quick, "clean" execution. Yet Garrus is conflicted as is evident by his dialogue. I think it was definitely intended to show him losing himself to revenge. Earlier in the mission, you also see him beating a confession out of Harking and wanting to shoot him in the leg even after getting the information. Clear signs that Garrus is losing it I'd say.

[sinosleep]

termokanden wrote...

They're not in the Terminus Systems though.

Paragon Shepard is trying to teach Garrus that murdering people based on your own personal need for revenge is not justice, and Renegade Shepard only cares about stopping Sidonis for good, having no trust in the legal system at all.

I'm trying to avoid the whole death penalty debate here, but in any case I will argue that Sidonis' crime does not warrant killing him. He was threatened to betray them and obviously isn't exactly enjoying the situation, he did not just go out and murder people for his own personal amusement.

Dr. Saleon from ME1 on the other hand was a real piece of work.

His crimes took place in the terminus systems, so for all intents and purposes he is outside the reach of citidel law. His actions led to many people being killed. If you don't allow Garrus to off him he gets away with it on account of being "sorry". To hell with that.

[termokanden]

Have you even tried the other option? Actually he is arrested.

[sinosleep]

termokanden wrote...

Have you even tried the other option? Actually he is arrested.

A LONG time ago, don't remember him getting arrested just being all "wah wah wah, I get nightmares, wah wah!!!" I'm made sure Garrus killed him practically every time.

[edit here] I just watched the paragon solution on youtube, he walks, he doesn't get arrested.

Modifié par sinosleep, 26 août 2010 - 09:59 .

[termokanden]

You don't see it right away, but if you go to the Citadel later you'll learn that he has been taken into custody, with Garrus commenting "that's the least that bastard deserves" (if he's in your party that is). I've tried both options and Garrus appears to be satisfied with the result in both cases.

[JasonDaPsycho]

sinosleep wrote...

termokanden wrote...

Have you even tried the other option? Actually he is arrested.

A LONG time ago, don't remember him getting arrested just being all "wah wah wah, I get nightmares, wah wah!!!" I'm made sure Garrus killed him practically every time.

[edit here] I just watched the paragon solution on youtube, he walks, he doesn't get arrested.

He doesn't get arrested on scene. I believe it was mentioned in the news that Sidonis went on to turn himself in (rather than being arrested), and hence the promise of making it up to Garrus somehow.

[sinosleep]

From masseffect wikia

If Garrus spared Sidonis, EDI reports that Harkin is taken into custody and charges are pending. News reports say that Sidonis went to C-Sec and confessed the murder of 10 people on Omega, but C-Sec doesn't know what to do with him, as Omega has no government to make an extradition to.

Modifié par sinosleep, 26 août 2010 - 10:04 .

[sinosleep]

So essentially, yeah, he walks. And if you read the description of the terminus systems it shouldn't matter that Omega has no government, what matters is that the crimes took place in space outside of the Citadel's jurisdiction as I had mentioned earlier.

[OniGanon]

termokanden wrote...

Perhaps it's a quick, "clean" execution. Yet Garrus is conflicted as is evident by his dialogue. I think it was definitely intended to show him losing himself to revenge. Earlier in the mission, you also see him beating a confession out of Harking and wanting to shoot him in the leg even after getting the information. Clear signs that Garrus is losing it I'd say.

Harkin just sicked two simultaneous YMIRs on you. He should be thankful he only gets the one bullet wound and a beating.

[termokanden]

So it was slightly different than I remembered (I let Garrus kill him on the last playthrough). I guess it tells you that Sidonis wasn't lying at least.

It certainly fuels the player's lack of trust in the Citadel in general, as if the Council's general idiocy wasn't enough.

I still personally prefer stopping Garrus from killing Sidonis.

On the other hand, I don't mind killing Vido at all. He's just a different kind of villain. It do feel a little bad when I hear the refinery workers being burned alive though. At this point Shepard has committed a much bigger crime than Sidonis ever did

Harkin just sicked two simultaneous YMIRs on you. He should be thankful he only gets the one bullet wound and a beating.

I still believe it was intended to show Garrus losing it, at which point Shepard can also ask Garrus if he's okay. It's clear that he's out for blood at least. Whether you want to call that kind of thing justice or not is probably a discussion that doesn't belong in this forum. You can probably guess what my opinion is

Modifié par termokanden, 26 août 2010 - 10:19 .

[vehzeel]

I bet most here on the boards wouldn't happily die by the hands of sadistic mercs so their friends could live. I think most of you would have taken the chance to get away. But of course guilt would haunt you. I'm not saying people in general are cowards. I'm just saying that the will to live is extremely strong in most people.

[sinosleep]

The difference being that most of us posting here aren't part of a vigilante squad that knew what they were getting into when they joined. I used to be in the army, and had I ever been captured you can bet your ass I would have NEVER given up the whereabouts of my friends or given information that the enemy could have used against them. You give up your name and your social and otherwise shut up. It's essentially the same thing here. Sidonis know what he was getting into when he joined up with Garrus, he shouldn't have done what he did.

Modifié par sinosleep, 26 août 2010 - 10:35 .

[termokanden]

Both good points tbh. His actions are not excusable as such, but on the other hand I could imagine worse crimes.



I wouldn't want him to get away with it, but killing him seems a bit harsh.